Born This Way

[FireDragon76]

I understand you believe that, as many people do. Why do you believe it though? Is it something you have verifiable evidence of, or you just feel that way?

I've known many gay people and I'm familiar with the scientific evidence concerning sexual orientation. It is not a choice.

I don't know. about that I think we can both agree that we humans tend to gravitate toward things we prefer.
Is there any evidence that being gay is an inherited genetic trait?
If so, I'd be interested in seeing that data.

There is more to something being innate, than whether or not it is genetic in origin. There is a whole field now of epigenetics, for instance.

News: There’s no one ‘gay gene,’ but... (The Washington Post) - Behind the headlines - NLM

(The Washington Post) There’s no one ‘gay gene,’ but genetics are linked to same-sex behavior, new study says. Associated research findings from the National Library of Medicine.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[CoreyD]

Conjoined twins are certainly not the norm, no.
So it's not normal in the sense of regular; happening every day.
It's not normal in the sense that something has obviously gone wrong somewhere. And if at all possible, the parents will no doubt want the children to be separated.

Okay, so correct me if I am wrong.
Normality depends on how frequently something happens? Is that what you are saying?

Please forgive me. I'm a little confused. You say, 'It's not normal in the sense that something has obviously gone wrong somewhere.'
However, earlier, you were saying, "Yes, but if a baby is born with a missing limb, that is still their normal."
You did not say at that point, something has obviously gone wrong somewhere.

So, I'm confused.
I'm not able to pinpoint a standard of normal, in your arguments.
It seems to be a case of, normal is whatever normal is to me.
Is that what you are saying? Please pardon my confusion.

It will be normal for the twins because that will be all they know, and have known. For them, being separated will be abnormal - though that's not to say that it shouldn't be attempted, if possible.

This is what I mean. I'm confused. Sorry.
Normal is relative to an individual's thinking?

A number of women smoke through pregnancy - I think my in laws did.
It's certainly against all advice - for health reasons.

I assume you are saying it's not healthy. Not healthy for her, or the fetus?
If the baby is born with an abnormality, did something go wrong, and can we verify a likely cause?

We measure normality as being born healthy, with no disabilities, the correct number of limbs in working order etc. That is correct in the sense that it is the norm. If someone were born with a condition the parents' instinct would be to get it treated - for health reasons, so that the child had a better quality of life.
But if the child had a genetic condition, or a disability that could not be treated, it would be wrong to let them think that they were in some way "abnormal", "defective" or that their life was not as important as anyone else's. I'm not saying that you have said that - but a disabled person could say "I was born this way, therefore it is not wrong."

Do you agree with that statement - "I was born [with this disability[, therefore it is not wrong."?

To me, kindness is normal.

It happens everyday. That makes it normal, right?
Or is there another reason you say it's normal?
Is it not true that kindness is not normal for billions of people?

Of disability?
I volunteered in a school for physically handicapped children, was a care worker for adults with learning disabilities (used to be called Mental Handicapped) and then trained as a nurse in this area.

That's a lot of experience with special needs children. Seems you love children.
You must be a person with a kind heart.

I didn't mean with disabilities, but you answered the question.

No, there is no "gay gene"; but neither is it taught.
I don't believe it can be controlled either. I am pretty sure that sexual attraction is an automatic response; people don't choose to make their hearts beat faster and whatever else happens when they see someone that they find attractive.
Some people feel that ay about people of their own gender.

Psychological, and mental disorders are not taught.
Neither are they inherited. So where do you say they come from?

??
Double negative = it is something that others have done.

No. It's not something others have not done.
"Having a different mindset is not something others have done", changes the meaning of "Having a different mindset is not something others have not done".

Someone who is gay can still be a Christian, follow Jesus and find the narrow way.

Please explain what you mean by "someone who is gay".

Now I don't know what sorts of conversations they have with God about being gay, sexually active (if they are) and his followers. I have never asked; it's not my concern or my business.

When you say sexually active, what do you mean? Married and having sex. Or unmarried and having sex, and with whom?

I am just told to love others as Jesus loved me. And I do not believe that treating gay, or disabled, people as "abnormal", that they are wrong or their life is a mistake or weird in some way, is being very loving.

Treating gay, or disabled, people as "abnormal"?
Please give an example of what you mean by " treating gay, or disabled, people as "abnormal" ".

 

[FireDragon76]

Somebody born with a disability isn't wrong. That's a category confusion, applying morality to an area it doesn't apply.

 

[CoreyD]

I've known many gay people and I'm familiar with the scientific evidence concerning sexual orientation. It is not a choice.


There is more to something being innate, than whether or not it is genetic in origin. There is a whole field now of epigenetics, for instance.

News: There’s no one ‘gay gene,’ but... (The Washington Post) - Behind the headlines - NLM

(The Washington Post) There’s no one ‘gay gene,’ but genetics are linked to same-sex behavior, new study says. Associated research findings from the National Library of Medicine.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

First, I'll like to thank you for the material.
There are many uncertainties when studying genes, as you may know.
There still remain questions to be asked, and more research to be done, according to this study.

Large-scale GWAS reveals insights into the genetic architecture of same-sex sexual behavior

Across human societies and in both sexes, some 2 to 10% of individuals report engaging in sex with same-sex partners, either exclusively or in addition to sex with opposite-sex partners. Twin and family studies have shown that same-sex sexual behavior ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If you need a summary. this page breaks it down.
Using genetic marker data from these individuals, the researchers performed genome-wide association studies, or analyses of differences in genes, looking for differences closely associated with same-sex sexual behavior.

Though they could not find any patterns that could be used to meaningfully predict or identify a person's sexual behavior, Neale and colleagues do report five genetic variants that were "significantly" associated with same-sex sexual behavior. However, these variants, along with thousands more, had only small overall effects on same-sex sexual behavior — under 1% collectively.

"[T]he effects are so small that this genetic score could not be reliably used to predict same-sex sexual behavior of an individual," writes Melinda Mills, the Nuffield Professor of Sociology at the University of Oxford, in a related Perspective.

The genes they found here to play a role in same-sex sexual behavior correlated with several other traits, including openness to experience and risk-taking behavior. The authors also found genetic overlap with some health-related behaviors such as smoking and cannabis use and overlap with risks for certain psychiatric conditions such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and major depression.

"[W]e need to be cautious about how we interpret these results, as the social environment likely has much to do with the overlap we observe," the authors write. "A member of the LGBTQ community may experience prejudice and discrimination based on their sexual orientation and behavior, which would increase their risk for depression. In that case, what might appear to be a genetic association is actually one that is driven by the environment."

 

[FireDragon76]

"[W]e need to be cautious about how we interpret these results, as the social environment likely has much to do with the overlap we observe," the authors write. "A member of the LGBTQ community may experience prejudice and discrimination based on their sexual orientation and behavior, which would increase their risk for depression. In that case, what might appear to be a genetic association is actually one that is driven by the environment."

That bit is important to remember. Correlation isn't causation.

Most of the gay people I've known knew at a young age that they were different. You're not talking about a lifestyle, something people might take up as an affectation or habit, it's a different sexual orientation altogether.

Identical twin studies show a higher prevalance of homosexual orientation in twins that have a gay sibling, with the probability being about 50 percent:

Some Random Thoughts on ‘Gay Gene’ Studies | Psychiatric News

PsychiatryOnline.org is the platform for all American Psychiatric Association Publishing journals, DSM, and bestselling textbooks, as well as APA Practice Guidelines, and continuing medical education.

psychnews.psychiatryonline.org

 

[CoreyD]

That bit is important to remember. Correlation isn't causation.

Most of the gay people I've known knew at a young age that they were different. You're not talking about a lifestyle, something people might take up as an affectation or habit, it's a different sexual orientation altogether.

Identical twin studies show a higher prevalance of homosexual orientation in twins that have a gay sibling, with the probability being about 50 percent:

Some Random Thoughts on ‘Gay Gene’ Studies | Psychiatric News

PsychiatryOnline.org is the platform for all American Psychiatric Association Publishing journals, DSM, and bestselling textbooks, as well as APA Practice Guidelines, and continuing medical education.

psychnews.psychiatryonline.org

It's been established, there is no "gay gene".

 

[FireDragon76]

It's been established, there is no "gay gene".

Even if there isn't a single identifiable gay gene, that doesn't mean a homosexual orientation is therefore a choice.

 

[Astrid]

I understand you believe that, as many people do. Why do you believe it though? Is it something you have verifiable evidence of, or you just feel that way?


I don't know. about that I think we can both agree that we humans tend to gravitate toward things we prefer.
Is there any evidence that being gay is an inherited genetic trait?
If so, I'd be interested in seeing that data.

Could you control your orientation, decide to be
somethung else?

 

[Astrid]

It's been established, there is no "gay gene".

No God gene, no hetero gene, no sense of responsibility
gene....so, exactly, what?

 

[FireDragon76]

No God gene, no hetero gene, no sense of responsibility
gene....so, exactly, what?

Like that article I linked to mentioned at the end, it's pretty much irrelevant, as groups that think it's wrong to be gay, would find a reason anyways to ignore the evidence. You don't reason people out of something they weren't reasoned into in the first place.

I myself was persuaded that being gay wasn't a choice because I actually listened to gay people. What a concept!

It's like the experience of Jesus is supposed to matter to Christians, but gay peoples experiences don't, I guess... That's a double standard, when one groups experiences matter more than another's. But again, you aren't going to reason somebody out of something they weren't reasoned into in the first place.

 

[CoreyD]

Even if there isn't a single identifiable gay gene, that doesn't mean a homosexual orientation is therefore a choice.

I'm more looking at what we can verify, rather than what a person thinks.
Isn't that the best way?

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm more looking at what we can verify, rather than what a person thinks.
Isn't that the best way?

You've dismissed any evidence that people actually try to share with you that would demonstrate that homosexual orientation isn't a choice. You don't seem to be interested in verifying anything that doesn't fit your own preconceived notions.

 

[Astrid]

Like that article I linked to mentioned at the end, it's pretty much irrelevant, as groups that think it's wrong to be gay, would find a reason anyways to ignore the evidence. You don't reason people out of something they weren't reasoned into in the first place.

I myself was persuaded that being gay wasn't a choice because I actually listened to gay people. What a concept!

It's like the experience of Jesus is supposed to matter to Christians, but gay peoples experiences don't, I guess... That's a double standard, when one groups experiences matter more than another's. But again, you aren't going to reason somebody out of something they weren't reasoned into in the first place.

Being female, being Chinese will always get
in some sort of trouble with the prejudiced.
Some groups, some places less, others more.

Being atheist and the "l" of the lgbt blah blag
has lots of potential to cause me more grief, and has.

I believe any " l" or "g" would say it's a terrible "choice".

The people who insist it is a choice ( like they know) are the same ones who tell me I'm atheist by choice, that I
know better but want an excuse to be able to
sin without consequence.

That's all it ever is. A religious conviction that overrides
every other consideration.

 

[CoreyD]

Could you control your orientation, decide to be
somethung else?

I'm assuming you mean sexual orientation.
According to the paper I just quoted, your environment, what you use, as well as your state of mind, are all factor that affect you, since your body functions biologically, and chemically, as well.
For example, these factors can play a role in my mental and psychological 'makeup', and I can go mad as well.
So, yes, there are a lot of things in this world that I had better control, rather than the other way around.

 

[FireDragon76]

Being female, being Chinese will always get
in some sort of trouble with the prejudiced.
Some groups, some places less, others more.

Being atheist and the "l" of the lgbt blah blag
has lots of potential to cause me more grief, and has.

I believe any " l" or "g" would say it's a terrible "choice".

The people who insist it is a choice ( like they know) are the same ones who tell me I'm atheist by choice, that I
know better but want an excuse to be able to
sin without consequence.

I understand where you are coming from now.

That's all it ever is. A religious conviction that overrides
every other consideration.

I don't approve of that kind of religion. It's as wrong as the Islamic fundamentalist that flies airplanes into buildings and thinks he's doing a good thing.

 

[Astrid]

I'm more looking at what we can verify, rather than what a person thinks.
Isn't that the best way?

Since you declined to answer the first time, at the risk of " badgering", here it is again. Simple yes or no.

Tell us if you could choose to be gay.

Then tell us what amount of what kind of additional
verification you need.

Perhaps too you could tell me how much
choice I have, how i go about choosing to
set aside the trauma, ptsd and deep phobia
that losing my virginity to a sadistic rapist
caused.

I mean, if you do know what you are talking about.

Is one's course in life all about choices?

 

[Astrid]

I'm assuming you mean sexual orientation.
According to the paper I just quoted, your environment, what you use, as well as your state of mind, are all factor that affect you, since your body functions biologically, and chemically, as well.
For example, these factors can play a role in my mental and psychological 'makeup', and I can go mad as well.
So, yes, there are a lot of things in this world that I had better control, rather than the other way around.

You did not answer.

 

[CoreyD]

You've dismissed any evidence that people actually try to share with you that would demonstrate that homosexual orientation isn't a choice. You don't seem to be interested in verifying anything that doesn't fit your own preconceived notions.

You realize you didn't comment on the paper, I posted.
Instead, you posted something on a study of "the gay gene",.

I have indeed shown by the use of a Large-scale GWAS Genome-wide association studies - a study which help scientists identify genes associated with a particular disease (or another trait). This method studies the entire set of DNA (the genome) of a large group of people, searching for small variations, called single nucleotide polymorphisms or SNPs (pronounced “snips”).

These fact do not support the accusation you are trying to make.
So, that you have decided to attack me, rather than respond to what I posted, does not demonstrate fairness, or interests in credible research, more than your interest in wanting me to accept what you want to believe.

I did refer to that, in this post.

 

[FireDragon76]

Christians need to learn that loving your neighbor means listening to your neighbo

You realize you didn't comment on the paper, I posted.
Instead, you posted something on a study of "the gay gene",.

I have indeed shown by the use of a Large-scale GWAS Genome-wide association studies - a study which help scientists identify genes associated with a particular disease (or another trait). This method studies the entire set of DNA (the genome) of a large group of people, searching for small variations, called single nucleotide polymorphisms or SNPs (pronounced “snips”).

These fact do not support the accusation you are trying to make.
So, that you have decided to attack me, rather than respond to what I posted, does not demonstrate fairness, or interests in credible research, more than your interest in wanting me to accept what you want to believe.

I did refer to that, in this post.

You're evading the wider issue, that the study of human sexuality is bigger than just genetic evidence.

 

[CoreyD]

Being female, being Chinese will always get
in some sort of trouble with the prejudiced.
Some groups, some places less, others more.

Being atheist and the "l" of the lgbt blah blag
has lots of potential to cause me more grief, and has.

I believe any " l" or "g" would say it's a terrible "choice".

The people who insist it is a choice ( like they know) are the same ones who tell me I'm atheist by choice, that I
know better but want an excuse to be able to
sin without consequence.

That's all it ever is. A religious conviction that overrides
every other consideration.

Since you declined to answer the first time, at the risk of " badgering", here it is again. Simple yes or no.

Tell us if you could choose to be gay.

I thought it answered, yes.
Yes.

Then tell us what amount of what kind of additional
verification you need.

Additional verification?
Why do you say additional? I don't get any.

Perhaps too you could tell me how my much
choice I have, how go about choosing to
set aside the trauma, ptsd and deep phobia
that losing my virginity to a sadistic rapist
caused.

I'm sorry you went through that experience.
This is the sad state of a world, that has turned from God.

I can offer what has helped thousands who have gone through something similar.
Of course to completely erase memories may not be possible now, but I can tell you that these person are happy, full of joy, and enjoying happy family life.
What has helped them comes from God. Are you open to that?

I mean, if you know what you are talking about.

How ones course in life is all about choices.

I'm not saying that our environment, experiences, state of mind, and other factors don't play a role in how our life turns out.
Our choices however, can and do make a difference.

For example, growing up in the ghetto can affect a child's mind, especially if his home environment is one where, his parents are drugged and bummed out, most time, but does that mean the youth cannot make choices that make a difference in his life. Or does he have to be a thug, and end up in prison, or dead?