Blameless in the Law

[ladodgers6]

God’s word is either what God has directly spoken or indirectly spoken through the prophets. In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, God directly spoke the Torah to Moses and he wrote everything down without departing from it, so it is God’s word. The Torah was given as a gift by God to teach us how to know Him through experiencing aspects of His moral nature, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, and other fruits of the Spirit (Exodus 33:13). If all these invisible aspects of God’s nature were personified into the image of a body that we can see, then that would be the Son. This why the Son is God’s word made flesh (John 1:14), the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), the radiance of God’s glory and the exact image of His nature (Hebrew 1:3), and why he set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah. As such, it is contradictory to trust in God while not trusting in His word and contradictory to have faith in the Son while not having faith in his example of obedience to the Torah.

How does these passages fit into your paradigm?

Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works

Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.​

 

[Soyeong]

How does these passages fit into your paradigm?

Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works

Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.​

While there are many verses like the ones that you've posts that speak against earning our righteousness as the result of our works, there are also many verses like Romans 2:13 and Isaiah 51:7, where only doers of the law are righteous, so there must be reasons why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:28-31 says that the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it.

Character traits are not something that are earned as wage as the result of our works, but rather whoever practices a character trait is that trait. For example, whoever practices courageousness is courageous and it would be contradictory for someone to practice courageousness while not being courageous and vice versa. Likewise, to say that God is righteous is to say that He practices righteousness and it would be contradictory to say that God is righteous if He did not practice righteousness, so by God declaring us to be righteous He is declaring us to be someone who practices righteousness, and God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to earn it as a wage.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

Great post Soyeong, but again I will ask you how is a condemned sinner under the curse of the law able to fulfill God's Law, while being full of sin in the first Adam and with personal iniquities? I do agree as I said before that the Law must be fulfilled with not a single blemish of sin. Do you see the dilemma?

Thank you.

NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo
"to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment"

So in order to fulfill the law someone simply needs to correctly do what it instructs. For example, if someone is doing something to honor their parents, then they are fulfilling the command to honor their parents. The dilemma that I see is finding a way to rid you of your unfounded assumption that fulfilling the law requires perfect obedience.

 

[Strong in Him]

While there are many verses like the ones that you've posts that speak against earning our righteousness as the result of our works, there are also many verses like Romans 2:13 and Isaiah 51:7, where only doers of the law are righteous, so there must be reasons why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage,

Abraham was considered to be righteous because he trusted God. He didn't have the law.
Christ is our Righteousness, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Character traits are not something that are earned as wage as the result of our works, but rather whoever practices a character trait is that trait. For example, whoever practices courageousness is courageous and it would be contradictory for someone to practice courageousness while not being courageous and vice versa. Likewise, to say that God is righteous is to say that He practices righteousness and it would be contradictory to say that God is righteous if He did not practice righteousness, so by God declaring us to be righteous He is declaring us to be someone who practices righteousness,

We are declared righteous in Jesus, see above.
Abraham was declared righteous because he trusted God, not because of anything he did.

So in order to fulfill the law someone simply needs to correctly do what it instructs.

Jesus has fulfilled the law - not because of his actions, but because of who he is and what he came to do.
You have still not answered that post of mine, number 286, where I listed how Jesus has fulfilled the law.
If we are IN Christ, we are in the One who perfectly fulfilled the law - which we could never do anyway.

 

[Soyeong]

Abraham was considered to be righteous because he trusted God. He didn't have the law.
Christ is our Righteousness, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Do you think that Romans 2:13 and Isaiah 51:7 contradict Genesis 15:6?

@ladodgers6
While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was counted as righteous (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he declared righteous was also expressed by being his obedience to God, but he did not earn his righteousness by his obedience as a wage (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, he quoted Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage. Furthermore, Abraham was a doers of the law (Genesis 26:4-5).

So becoming someone who has faith, who is righteous, and who is a doer of the law are all linked such that we become all three at the same time, where someone who has become one has also become the others while someone who has not become one also has also not become the others. This is how Paul can say that only doers of the law will be justified (Roman 2:13), that justified by faith apart from having done works to result in our justification, and that the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to be a doer of the law, but rather out faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

We are declared righteous in Jesus, see above.
Abraham was declared righteous because he trusted God, not because of anything he did.

We can do things that express our trust in God, which is which is what Abraham did, such as with all of the actions listed in Hebrews 11 that are examples of justifying faith. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obeying His instructions, while it is contradictory to think that God is trustworthy while thinking that He gave instructions that are not trustworthy. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice of whether we are going to learn on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart do correctly divide between right and wrong through what He has instructed, and God will make our way straight.

Jesus has fulfilled the law - not because of his actions, but because of who he is and what he came to do.
You have still not answered that post of mine, number 286, where I listed how Jesus has fulfilled the law.
If we are IN Christ, we are in the One who perfectly fulfilled the law - which we could never do anyway.

You saying that Jesus fulfilled the law because of what he came to do is admitting that he fulfilled the law because of his actions. I'll reply to that post when I can. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to God's law, so it is incorrect for someone who never does walk in the same way he walked to consider themselves to be in Christ. We can't be unified in Christ while refusing to be a doer of God's instructions for how to do that.

 

[Strong in Him]

Do you think that Romans 2:13 and Isaiah 51:7 contradict Genesis 15:6?

Genesis 15:6 says that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.
WHO counted it to Abraham as righteousness? God.
Why was it counted to him as righteousness? Abraham believed God's promise that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky. He didn't have children, and it was biologically impossible, yet he believed God.
He didn't have the law, nor did he DO anything to become righteous - he just believed God's word.

You saying that Jesus fulfilled the law because of what he came to do is admitting that he fulfilled the law because of his actions.

By his death on the cross, yes.
He fulfilled the sacrifices for sin when he, the spotless Lamb of God, gave his life as a sacrifice for us. Those who come to, and believe in, him have eternal life; he was the second Adam who reconciled us with God and made it possible for us to have peace with him, Romans 5:1.
He fulfilled the feasts as I said in my previous post.

He did not fulfil the law by keeping every one of the laws written in Leviticus - that's what I meant.

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to God's law,

You've just agreed that Jesus fulfilled the law.
If we are IN Christ we have every spiritual blessing, Ephesians 1:3. We have peace with God because he gave us people with God, Romans 5:1. We are reconciled to the Father because he reconciled us, Romans 5:11. We are righteous because he made us righteous, 2 Corinthians 5:21. We are abide in Jesus, John 15:4, who fills and fulfils everything in every way Ephesians 1:23.

So yes, we show our faith and love by our actions. And if you believe that those actions have to include keeping all the precepts of the OT Sinai law, then you have to do that.
Personally I don't believe that eating pork makes me a sinner, nor shows that I am out of fellowship with God. I don't believe I am going to be discipled/punished because I wear socks that are made from cotton and lycra (2 fabrics.) If you do, and if you feel that going/not doing these things brings you closer to God; fine.

 

[fhansen]

You do realize that Paul wrote this too; no?

What do you suppose this means?

Do you belivee that it suggests that YHWH's grace didn't precede Yahshua's death?

It means that with mere external obedience of the law one can still be no more than a “white-washed tomb”, clean on the outside while filthy on the inside, Matt 23:27.

 

[ladodgers6]

While there are many verses like the ones that you've posts that speak against earning our righteousness as the result of our works, there are also many verses like Romans 2:13 and Isaiah 51:7, where only doers of the law are righteous, so there must be reasons why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:28-31 says that the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it.

Well then Soyeong you have a huge problem if your paradigm has contradictions, right? But even logically your paradigm fall short. Here's why, God's Holy Law demand righteousness without blemishes of sin. All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. But this is not an excuse for not fulfilling the Law commands for righteousness. It is the doers of the Law, but what sinner can meet these obligations?

The Law for sinners only brings knowledge of sin! Which leads to condemnation, death and punishment. This is why the curse of the Law hangs over us as sinners! This is why God promised Adam, Abraham, King David that he will send a Seed, that will save his people from their sins. A redeemer born in the likeness of sinful flesh, under the Law, to fulfill the Law and condemn sin in the flesh. He came to fulfill the broken Covenant of Works that the first Adam breached by his One Act of Disobedience that brought sin, death and condemnation upon all. The Last Adam Christ with his One Act of Righteousness bring the Free Gift of righteousness, life, justification for all who believe! Christ is the doer of the Law for the ungodly!

God's word doesn't contradict itself. As you can see in my comments above. You have only half the truth. No flesh will be justified through the Law Paul said in Galatians 2:16. Why not? This is what should be asking. Because sinners are already in a condemned state before a Holy Righteous Judge. It is the doers of the Law who will be righteous, but who after the fall can meet this demand? This is the part you are missing Soyeong. And is precisely what Paul is pointing out; he's driving this point home. Basically bashing us over the head with the Law, saying wake up knuckleheads. The Law is the ministry of death for sinners!

1 Cor. 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.​

 

[ladodgers6]

Do you think that Romans 2:13 and Isaiah 51:7 contradict Genesis 15:6?

@ladodgers6
While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was counted as righteous (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he declared righteous was also expressed by being his obedience to God, but he did not earn his righteousness by his obedience as a wage (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, he quoted Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage. Furthermore, Abraham was a doers of the law (Genesis 26:4-5).

Not so fast Soyeong, either we are justified by Faith Alone, or by works, or by both. Only one of these is correct. Paul himself gives the answer in Romans 4. Let's look at these passages.
​

Abraham Justified by Faith​

1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Let's stop here for a minute. Paul says IF Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, meaning he has a due owed to him. He has something to boast that he earned, that he did, that he merited, that he fulfilled by his works, his hands. Paul says, but not before God. Why not? Because Abraham is also a sinner in need of God's Grace and Mercy like us. In other words no flesh will be justified through the Law! This door is now shut to all sinners in Adam! Let's continue.

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Now how can God count Abraham's faith as righteousness? He didn't do anything to merit it through righteous works. He is ungodly and a sinner like all if us. Isn't this against Scripture to pronounce a guilty man innocent? Yes, it is. So how can God count this guilty sinner righteous? It is because of the Promise God made to Abraham that God will send a Promised Seed that will save his people from their sins, and he will fulfill the Law perfectly and merit righteousness and become a curse for them. Christ will take our place on the Cross and bear our curse, death, punishment. And we will receive his righteousness, sanctification and be counted righteous! This is how God can be the Just and the Justifier of the ungodly!

4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

See how marvelous the good news is for the ungodly, Soyeong? God counts the ungodly righteous through Faith Alone apart from works! Also notice the juxtaposition (contrast) works (law) vs gift (promise). I believe is this the huge part you are missing in your position. Paul is crystal clear in these passage that God counts faith in his promise (Christ) as righteousness; because of the Righteousness of Christ given through the Promise and received by faith alone apart from works of the Law.

6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:​

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
​

David also recognizes the blessing of the Promise to whom God counts righteousness apart from works of the Law! Soyeong, the Gospel is an announcement of this marvelous good news for sinners. That God gives in the Gospel Promise to those who believe or receive through Faith Alone!

And not by anything we can do through the Law, which is an impossible endeavor to accomplish for any sinner! Understand Paul on the perspectives of Law & Gospel; Curses & Promises; imperatives & indicatives; works & gift; condemnation & justification; legalism & Grace. And this coming from the greatest Pharisee that protected the Torah and persecuted Christians!

By Grace Alone in Christ through Faith Alone!​

 

[Soyeong]

Well then Soyeong you have a huge problem if your paradigm has contradictions, right?​

You would need to point out where my paradigm has contradictions.

But even logically your paradigm fall short. Here's why, God's Holy Law demand righteousness without blemishes of sin. All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. But this is not an excuse for not fulfilling the Law commands for righteousness. It is the doers of the Law, but what sinner can meet these obligations?​

God's law does not demand sinless obedience, but rather it came with instructions for what to do when the the people sinned. While it is true that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, the fact that we can repent after we have sinned means that the law doesn't require us to have perfect obedience. Likewise, the fact all of the people who will be saved have all not had perfect obedience means that the law does not require us to have perfect obedience. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So every last person person can meet the obligation of being a doer of the law if they decide to choose life instead of death. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you that thinking that we need perfect obedience is a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law.

The Law for sinners only brings knowledge of sin! Which leads to condemnation, death and punishment. This is why the curse of the Law hangs over us as sinners! This is why God promised Adam, Abraham, King David that he will send a Seed, that will save his people from their sins. A redeemer born in the likeness of sinful flesh, under the Law, to fulfill the Law and condemn sin in the flesh. He came to fulfill the broken Covenant of Works that the first Adam breached by his One Act of Disobedience that brought sin, death and condemnation upon all. The Last Adam Christ with his One Act of Righteousness bring the Free Gift of righteousness, life, justification for all who believe! Christ is the doer of the Law for the ungodly!​

Even earthly fathers know to give instructions to their children for their own good in order to teach them how to rightly live, so it is that much more true for our Heavenly Father (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). God's law was given to teach us how to do what is holy, righteous, and good, and so forth for other aspects of God's nature and only brings knowledge of sin by contrast. God's law does not bring condemnation, death, curse, and punishment for those who choose to obey it, but only for those who refuse to submit to it. In Acts 3:25-26, Jesus was sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, so the way that the Seed saves His people from their sins is by leading us to obey God's law. The experience of obeying God's law is the content of His free gift of righteousness, life, and justification for all who believe. Nowhere does the Bible say that Christ robs us of that gift by being a doer of the law for the ungodly.

God's word doesn't contradict itself. As you can see in my comments above. You have only half the truth. No flesh will be justified through the Law Paul said in Galatians 2:16. Why not? This is what should be asking. Because sinners are already in a condemned state before a Holy Righteous Judge. It is the doers of the Law who will be righteous, but who after the fall can meet this demand? This is the part you are missing Soyeong. And is precisely what Paul is pointing out; he's driving this point home. Basically bashing us over the head with the Law, saying wake up knuckleheads. The Law is the ministry of death for sinners!​

No one would earn their justification as a wage even through perfect obedience to God's law even they managed to have perfect obedience to it because the law was never given as a means of doing that and that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of why we should obey it. So the fact that we can't have perfect obedience to God's law has absolutely nothing to do with why we can't earn our justification by obeying it. It is doers of the law who will be justified and the law demand that we make a choice between whether we are going to obey it, which is a choice that everyone can make (Deuteronomy 30:11-20), or chase after other gods (Deuteronomy 11:26-32). In Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture was written for our instruction and in 15:18-19, his Gospel involved bringing Gentiles to full obedience in word and in deed, so leading us to choose to obey God's law was the content of Paul's Gospel message, which was in accordance with the consistent call for repentance all throughout the Bible, so it is absurd to think that Paul wanted us to rebel against God instead. The fact that God's law is a ministry of life for those who choose to obey it and a ministry of death for those who refuse to submit to it and chase after other gods is not a very good reason for someone to choose death instead of life.

1 Cor. 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.​

A law that is the power of sin is a law that is sinful, however, in Romans 7:7, it says that the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, therefore 1 Corinthians 15:56 is not referring to the Law of God, but rather it is the law of sin that is the strength of sin.

 

[ladodgers6]

You would need to point out where my paradigm has contradictions.

Huh??? Didn't I highlight your own words, that you stated that there is passages that support doers of the Law. And passages that state that no flesh will be justified though the Law? You keep insisting that one must keep the law to enter heaven, but deny that a person is justified apart from the Law.

You believe in Torah living for justification, yes? But Paul condemns this position for sinners. Only a sinless man not under the curse of the Law can live by the Law, understand? But I do agree with you that it is the doers of the Law that will be justified, this is called Law preaching. This is brings terror to sinners because they know they are guilty before a Holy God and cannot fulfill this. They stand before God guilty & condemned as the Law accuses them of their sin, which then brings judgement, condemnation, death and punishment.

But the Law also serves to point or drive sinners to the only place to find Grace & Mercy from this lapse and sinful state. Which is the Promises of the Gospel. It is Christ who has fulfilled the Law for us with perfect flawless obedience. He is the one who was sent to save sinners from their sins. He is the one who become a curse by taking the place of a sinner, so we can receive his righteousness. All of these heavenly blessings are given freely and received through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law.

But if the Gospel is preached with works then is no longer Grace, correct? This is what you are missing. Conflating Gospel into law, and Law into Gospel is distorting the good news for the ungodly with the yoke of the Law. Which is no gospel at all.​

 

[Soyeong]

Not so fast Soyeong, either we are justified by Faith Alone, or by works, or by both. Only one of these is correct. Paul himself gives the answer in Romans 4. Let's look at these passages.​

My position is that the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as good works, but that we do not earn our justification by are works, so I am in agreement with Romans 4. So when someone does good works like helping the poor, the connection to being justified is not that is helping to earn their justification, but that it is expressing their faith.

​

Abraham Justified by Faith​

1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Let's stop here for a minute. Paul says IF Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, meaning he has a due owed to him. He has something to boast that he earned, that he did, that he merited, that he fulfilled by his works, his hands. Paul says, but not before God. Why not? Because Abraham is also a sinner in need of God's Grace and Mercy like us. In other words no flesh will be justified through the Law! This door is now shut to all sinners in Adam! Let's continue.​

If someone earned their justification as the result of their works, then they would have something to boast in themselves about, but if someone did good works because of their faith in God, then they only have room to boast in God (1 Corinthians 1:31). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 saying that Abraham believed God so he was justified in order to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith complete his works, so his works were an expression of his faith in God, which did not give him anything to boast in himself about before God. God's law can be obeyed for any number of reasons other than in order to earn our justification as a wage or in order to have something to boast in ourselves about, so what the Bible speaks only against incorrect reasons for obeying it should not be mistaken as speaking against our justification requiring us to be a doer of the law for the correct reasons. All those who have faith are doers of the law and only those who have faith will be justified, so everyone who is not a doer of the law will not be justified, though we do not earn our justification as a wage by being a doer of the law.

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Now how can God count Abraham's faith as righteousness? He didn't do anything to merit it through righteous works. He is ungodly and a sinner like all if us. Isn't this against Scripture to pronounce a guilty man innocent? Yes, it is. So how can God count this guilty sinner righteous? It is because of the Promise God made to Abraham that God will send a Promised Seed that will save his people from their sins, and he will fulfill the Law perfectly and merit righteousness and become a curse for them. Christ will take our place on the Cross and bear our curse, death, punishment. And we will receive his righteousness, sanctification and be counted righteous! This is how God can be the Just and the Justifier of the ungodly!​

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God. Again, James 2:21-24 quotes the same verse as Romans 4:3 in order to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, but it is speaking about works done as an expression of his faith, not works done in order to earn a wage and have something to boast about, which is what Romans 4 is speaking against.

To say that someone is righteous means that they practice righteousness and God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to earn our righteousness as the result of our obedience. So the conteont of the gift of becoming righteous is the experience of becoming someone who practices righteousness and the way to become righteous is by grace through faith, not earned as the result of practicing righteousness. Christ practices his righteousness by living in obedience to God's law, so that is also the way that we live when we receive his righteousness, but you want to receive his righteousness without becoming someone who practices righteousness, which is not only a contradiction, but is robbing the gift of righteousness of its content, so it is like you want to box that the gift of righteousness came in, but not the content of the gift itself. A salvation where we were only counted as righteous, but not counted as someone who practices righteousness would be selling our salvation far short of the salvation that God has in store for us.

In Acts 3:25-26, Jesus came as the Promised Seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, and God's law teaches us how to do that, but you consider that to be a curse rather than a blessing.

4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

See how marvelous the good news is for the ungodly, Soyeong? God counts the ungodly righteous through Faith Alone apart from works! Also notice the juxtaposition (contrast) works (law) vs gift (promise). I believe is this the huge part you are missing in your position. Paul is crystal clear in these passage that God counts faith in his promise (Christ) as righteousness; because of the Righteousness of Christ given through the Promise and received by faith alone apart from works of the Law.​

While a gift can't be earned as a wage, the content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the experience requires them to do the work of driving it, but where doing that work has nothing to do with trying to earn the gift as a wage. Similarly, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23). Likewise, the content of the gift of righteousness is getting to experience practicing righteousness, but you would have Christ rob us of that gift by experiencing it for us.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is in accordance with Jesus blessing us by turning us from our wickedness in accordance with the promise (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), and which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5). In Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5, and Deuteronomy 30:16, the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that, and because his children did that. So spreading the Gospel by blessing others by turning them from their wickedness and teaching them to walk in God's way in obedience to His law is the way to have faith in the promise.

6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:​

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
​

David also recognizes the blessing of the Promise to whom God counts righteousness apart from works of the Law! Soyeong, the Gospel is an announcement of this marvelous good news for sinners. That God gives in the Gospel Promise to those who believe or receive through Faith Alone!

And not by anything we can do through the Law, which is an impossible endeavor to accomplish for any sinner! Understand Paul on the perspectives of Law & Gospel; Curses & Promises; imperatives & indicatives; works & gift; condemnation & justification; legalism & Grace. And this coming from the greatest Pharisee that protected the Torah and persecuted Christians!​

The Psalms express an extremely positive view of God's law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if you believed that the Psalms are Scripture and therefore held the same view of the law that they express as Paul did (Romans 7:12), then you would consider it to be the antithesis of the good news to be counted as someone who does not have the gift of getting to practice righteousness on obedience to God's law through faith. While we become righteous apart from having done any works to earn our righteousness as a wage, that does not mean that we become righteous without becoming someone who practices righteousness in obedience to God's law. In Roman 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel involved brining Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so his Gospel was also in accordance with Christ's Gospel in calling for obedience to God's law.

By Grace Alone in Christ through Faith Alone!

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting God's law before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace alone in Christ alone through faith alone.

 

[Soyeong]

Huh??? Didn't I highlight your own words, that you stated that there is passages that support doers of the Law. And passages that state that no flesh will be justified though the Law? You keep insisting that one must keep the law to enter heaven, but deny that a person is justified apart from the Law.​

Here are some verses that show that we can't earn our salvation/justification/righteousness/eternal life by our obedience to God's law as a wage: Romans 3:28, Romans 4:4-5, Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Galatians 2:21, and Galatians 3:21

Here are some verses where our salvation/justification/righteousness/eternal life requires us to choose to be a doer of God's law: Romans 2:6-7, Romans 2:13, Romans 6:19-23, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:11-14, Galatians 3:26-29, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Hebrews 5:9, and Revelation 22:14.

I do not think that these two sets of verses contradict each other, but rather there clearly must be a reason why our salvation/justification/righteousness/eternal life requires us to choose to be a doer of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage. So I insist that we must keep God's law in order to enter heaven because that is what Matthew 7:21-23 says while I do not deny that a person is justified apart from having done works to earn it as a wage.

You believe in Torah living for justification, yes? But Paul condemns this position for sinners. Only a sinless man not under the curse of the Law can live by the Law, understand? But I do agree with you that it is the doers of the Law that will be justified, this is called Law preaching. This is brings terror to sinners because they know they are guilty before a Holy God and cannot fulfill this. They stand before God guilty & condemned as the Law accuses them of their sin, which then brings judgement, condemnation, death and punishment.​

Paul said that only doers of the Torah will be justified, so he did not condemn this position for anyone. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under the blessing of the law or the curse of the law is about picking a mountain and climbing it, about whether we are going to choose to serve God or chase after other gods, not whether or not we have perfect obedience. While all of the Israelites sinned and fell short of the glory of God, everyone being under God's curse does not reflect the recorded reality of those who chose to serve God, but only those who chose to chase after to her gods. God is a loving Father who knows how to gift gifts to His children that are for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), and an unloving Father who terrorizes His children to bring condemnation, death, and punishment.

But the Law also serves to point or drive sinners to the only place to find Grace & Mercy from this lapse and sinful state. Which is the Promises of the Gospel. It is Christ who has fulfilled the Law for us with perfect flawless obedience. He is the one who was sent to save sinners from their sins. He is the one who become a curse by taking the place of a sinner, so we can receive his righteousness. All of these heavenly blessings are given freely and received through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law.

But if the Gospel is preached with works then is no longer Grace, correct? This is what you are missing. Conflating Gospel into law, and Law into Gospel is distorting the good news for the ungodly with the yoke of the Law. Which is no gospel at all.​

The Bible does say that God's law serves to point or drive sinners to the only place to find grace and mercy, but that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law (Psalms 119:29) and that mercy is one of the weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). The Bible also does not state that Christ fulfilled the law for us, so you are making up your own doctrine apart from the Bible. Sin is living in transgression of God's law, so Christ saves us from living in sin by teaching us to live in obedience to God's law through faith, which is the way that we receive his righteousness. In Matthew 4:15-23, obeying God's law is a central part of the Gospel of Christ, so I don't see how you can accuse me of conflating the, but rather the problem is that you are distorting the Gospel by trying to separate them in a way that is contrary to Scripture. If you had the same view of God's law as David and Paul, then you would consider the Gospel to be very good news instead of denying the Gospel of Christ.

 

[ralliann]

(CLV) Php 3:6
in acrelation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in acrelation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.


(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

Who says it's impossible?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?

Possible yep...
De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Not possible
De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

God's righteousness....
Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS .
Jer 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.
Jer 51:10 The LORD hath brought forth our righteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of the LORD our God.

His faithfulness in keeping his promises to their fathers, and our Father Abraham.......
In which he sware an oath, it is impossible for God to lie......

 

[Strong in Him]

The Psalms express an extremely positive view of God's law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it,

God's law was all that David had - he didn't have prophets such as Isaiah, Hosea etc. And he certainly didn't have Jesus' teachings.
David might have delighted in the law; he didn't always obey it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Here are some verses that show that we can't earn our salvation/justification/righteousness/eternal life by our obedience to God's law as a wage: Romans 3:28, Romans 4:4-5, Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Galatians 2:21, and Galatians 3:21

Here are some verses where our salvation/justification/righteousness/eternal life requires us to choose to be a doer of God's law: Romans 2:6-7, Romans 2:13, Romans 6:19-23, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:11-14, Galatians 3:26-29, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Hebrews 5:9, and Revelation 22:14.

I do not think that these two sets of verses contradict each other, but rather there clearly must be a reason why our salvation/justification/righteousness/eternal life requires us to choose to be a doer of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage. So I insist that we must keep God's law in order to enter heaven because that is what Matthew 7:21-23 says while I do not deny that a person is justified apart from having done works to earn it as a wage.


Paul said that only doers of the Torah will be justified, so he did not condemn this position for anyone. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under the blessing of the law or the curse of the law is about picking a mountain and climbing it, about whether we are going to choose to serve God or chase after other gods, not whether or not we have perfect obedience. While all of the Israelites sinned and fell short of the glory of God, everyone being under God's curse does not reflect the recorded reality of those who chose to serve God, but only those who chose to chase after to her gods. God is a loving Father who knows how to gift gifts to His children that are for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), and an unloving Father who terrorizes His children to bring condemnation, death, and punishment.


The Bible does say that God's law serves to point or drive sinners to the only place to find grace and mercy, but that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law (Psalms 119:29) and that mercy is one of the weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). The Bible also does not state that Christ fulfilled the law for us, so you are making up your own doctrine apart from the Bible. Sin is living in transgression of God's law, so Christ saves us from living in sin by teaching us to live in obedience to God's law through faith, which is the way that we receive his righteousness. In Matthew 4:15-23, obeying God's law is a central part of the Gospel of Christ, so I don't see how you can accuse me of conflating the, but rather the problem is that you are distorting the Gospel by trying to separate them in a way that is contrary to Scripture. If you had the same view of God's law as David and Paul, then you would consider the Gospel to be very good news instead of denying the Gospel of Christ.

I am curious. You have said that God does not require perfect obedience, but also that obedience to God's law is required. Can you tell me approximately what level of obedience is pleasing to God? Let's say, for example, white lies are acceptable but black lies are not.

 

[Soyeong]

Possible yep...
De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

In Deuteronomy 6:20-25, keeping those commandments is in regard to having faith in God to defeat Pharaoh, faith in God to bring them up out of Egypt, faith in God to bring them to the land that He swore to give their fathers, and faith in God that they are commanded for their own good, and faith in God to preserve them, so it is by faith that they are careful to do all of those commandments and by faith it is righteousness for them.

Not possible
De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

The fact that some chose to sin does not mean that it is not possible.

God's righteousness....
Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Exodus 33:13 and Matthew 7:23, knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life (John 17:3)

In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelite had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as though righteousness were earned as a wage in order to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, it references what Moses wrote in Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the righteousness by faith and the word of faith that we proclaim that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that the person who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised Jesus from the death.

In Philippians 3:8-9, Paul had been in the same situation where he had been obeying the law, but not while being focused on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law, and that is what he counted as rubbish.

Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS .
Jer 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.
Jer 51:10 The LORD hath brought forth our righteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of the LORD our God.

His faithfulness in keeping his promises to their fathers, and our Father Abraham.......
In which he sware an oath, it is impossible for God to lie......

God is righteousness, so every righteous act testifies about the nature of who he is and there is no righteousness apart from the nature of who He is. God's law is His instructions for how to testify about His righteousness through faith, not for how to establish our own.

 

[ralliann]

In Deuteronomy 6:20-25, keeping those commandments is in regard to having faith in God to defeat Pharaoh, faith in God to bring them up out of Egypt, faith in God to bring them to the land that He swore to give their fathers, and faith in God that they are commanded for their own good, and faith in God to preserve them, so it is by faith that they are careful to do all of those commandments and by faith it is righteousness of and for them.


The fact that some chose to sin does not mean that it is not possible.



Exodus 33:13 and Matthew 7:23, knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life (John 17:3)

In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelite had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as though righteousness were earned as a wage in order to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, it references what Moses wrote in Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the righteousness by faith and the word of faith that we proclaim that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that the person who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised Jesus from the death.

In Philippians 3:8-9, Paul had been in the same situation where he had been obeying the law, but not while being focused on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law, and that is what he counted as rubbish.


God is righteousness, so every righteous act testifies about the nature of who he is and there is no righteousness apart from the nature of who He is. God's law is His instructions for how to testify about His righteousness through faith, not for how to establish our own.

The righteousness they had of their own was as a nation on the earth. It is a righteousness before men. So that God was shown to be a righteous Judge. As Abraham knew him to be.
To be a righteous judge of all nations of men. WITHOUT HYPOCRASY......

Ge 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

When Israel sinned like the nations, God was blasphemed before the nations as a hypocritical judge, or a liar to not keep the promises made to their fathers, to exalt them above the nations. This proves law before Sinai was righteousness, which was "RETAINED".

Ac 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Concerning the king of babylon.....God rules and reigns over all kingdoms of men.....

Daniel 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
This earthly worldly righteousness is not the righteousness of God....given us in Christ Jesus.

 

[Soyeong]

I am curious. You have said that God does not require perfect obedience, but also that obedience to God's law is required. Can you tell me approximately what level of obedience is pleasing to God? Let's say, for example, white lies are acceptable but black lies are not.

That's missing the point, it is not about having a good enough level of obedience, but about what our obedience signifies. Someone's obedience to God can signify any number of things, such as they love God, they have faith in God, they know God, they are testifying about God, they bringing about the restoration of the world, they are trying to earn a wage, they are trying to look pious to their neighbor, they want something to boast in themselves about, and so forth, and the Bible supports some of those motivations while speaking against others. Even if someone managed to have perfect obedience to God's law, then there wouldn't be anything they they earned as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), so that has alway been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law, which is why there are many verses that speak against that. However, Paul also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so there is a link between being justified and being a doer of the law and there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31). So Paul linked someone who has faith, someone who is justified, and someone who is a doer of the law such that we become all three at the same time, anyone who has become one has also become the others, and anyone who is missing one is also missing the others.

 

[Soyeong]

God's law was all that David had - he didn't have prophets such as Isaiah, Hosea etc. And he certainly didn't have Jesus' teachings.
David might have delighted in the law; he didn't always obey it.

Those who believe that the Psalms are Scripture believe in the truth of everything in them regardless of what other information David had. David didn't have the books of the NT, yet the Psalms are the OT book that is quoted the most in the NT, which the NT authors did to support the truth of what they were saying. David delighted in obeying God's law, so that is the attitude towards obeying God's law of everyone who considers the Psalms to be Scripture ought to have, such as with Paul (Romans 7:22). For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night, so we can believe in the truth of these words as Scripture while not allowing them to shape our attitude towards God's law.

 

[Strong in Him]

Those who believe that the Psalms are Scripture believe in the truth of everything in them regardless of what other information David had.

I didn't say otherwise.

David didn't have the books of the NT, yet the Psalms are the OT book that is quoted the most in the NT, which the NT authors did to support the truth of what they were saying.

Yes, but that wasn't my point.
David said that he loved God's law: God's law was from God and was all David had of God's word.
We know the Word who was made flesh; the only Way to God and the One who sent his Spirit to live IN us. We are not commanded to live under the OT law. They were; it was the Covenant.

David delighted in obeying God's law, so that is the attitude towards obeying God's law of everyone who considers the Psalms to be Scripture ought to have,

Jesus - the author of the NEW Covenant - did not command Gentile believers to keep OT law.