Blackjack and Design

[Oncedeceived]

OD, if I may ask, what is your avatar a picture of?

You may. I don't remember it has been so long ago that I chose it. I've even thought about changing it but I've grown attached to it now. I also like the way it looks like a butterfly and atheists are always claiming that we see patterns in things and this is an example from which they draw. Of course which has nothing to do with the appearance of design in the universe. What we "see" like this butterfly and what appears like design is nothing alike.

 

[sandybay]

Sandy, I'm holding a deck of cards in my hand.

I'm about to turn one up.

What are the odds that that card is going to be an Ace of Clubs?

1 in 52, is it not?

Now, assuming I turn an Ace of Clubs up, what now are the odds that the next card is going to be the Ace of Spades?

1 in 51, is it not?

1 in 52 times 1 in 51 equal 1 in 2652.

Now ... let's forget the suit.

I'm holding a deck of cards.

What are the odds that the first card will be a black Ace?

2 in 52 ... or 1 in 26 ... is it not?

Assuming that happens, now what are the odds that the next card will be the other black Ace?

1 in 51, is it not?

1 in 26 times 1 in 51 equal 1 in 1326.

What is wrong with you?

 

[Oncedeceived]

How do you feel about Zeus or Allah? the same as me I expect.

I looked at both logically and they fail. They cohesively fit into Christianity and Christianity is a logical conclusion based on the evidence we have in the universe.

You dismiss all on illogical conclusions.

 

[sandybay]

I looked at both logically and they fail. They cohesively fit into Christianity and Christianity is a logical conclusion based on the evidence we have in the universe.

You dismiss all on illogical conclusions.

I see no difference in any of the religions because I know where they all came from, people made them up.

You obviously want to believe in Christianity so you will look for things that you think will confirm that your belief is justified, there is nothing unusual or strange about that, we have all done it for many things in our lives and we will continue to do it until we die, we do it when we worry about our children being safe and we do it with the love of our partners, we look for things that will keep us believing what we want most desperately to believe, we even lie to ourselves.

 

[justlookinla]

Once while playing blackjack, I was dealt a pair of aces in a row. On both hands, I split the aces and was dealt a face card on each ace resulting in four blackjacks two at a time.There were multiple players at the table so calculating the odds would require a bit of time and memory. Suffice it to say, the odds of this happening are quite low. Now obviously before this, the dealer shuffled the cards and had dealt out several hands before this occurred. If we were to intricately examine the dealer shuffling and were able to count the cards as they came out we could easily see the process that led to my two lucky hands.

The above anecdote was accomplished through natural means. The dealer shuffled, cards were dealt, I got my hands.

Is there any reason to include an element of design in this scenario? In my opinion, no. It is a superfluous element since we already know or could possibly know the process of how the hands came about.

If you think that design is required in any of this, explain why.

If you don't understand blackjack, then don't even try to explain anything.

I don't understand how this is related to design.

 

[crjmurray]

I very clearly stated that if you don't understand blackjack then there's no point in trying to explain anything about this scenario. Suits do not matter in blackjack (unless your casino offers side bets). Blackjack is not played with a single deck it's played with four (this has no impact on the math but I'm seeing a lot of single deck discussion).

 

[Willtor]

I see no difference in any of the religions because I know where they all came from, people made them up.

This is getting a bit away from cards and the forum topic, but it's a very broad and bald assertion, so I'ma keep it going unless crjmurray gets angry that his thread is being derailed...

I'm a Christian, but I see differences between all of the religions I've studied. I'm singularly impressed that you don't see any differences and that you know where they all came from. Can you talk more about this?

You obviously want to believe in Christianity so you will look for things that you think will confirm that your belief is justified, there is nothing unusual or strange about that, we have all done it for many things in our lives and we will continue to do it until we die, we do it when we worry about our children being safe and we do it with the love of our partners, we look for things that will keep us believing what we want most desperately to believe, we even lie to ourselves.

This argument is unassailable, of course, almost to the point of being a meaningless platitude.

 

[sandybay]

I see no difference in any of the religions because I know where they all came from, people made them up.

You obviously want to believe in Christianity so you will look for things that you think will confirm that your belief is justified, there is nothing unusual or strange about that, we have all done it for many things in our lives and we will continue to do it until we die, we do it when we worry about our children being safe and we do it with the love of our partners, we look for things that will keep us believing what we want most desperately to believe, we even lie to ourselves.

I'm a Christian, but I see differences between all of the religions I've studied. I'm singularly impressed that you don't see any differences and that you know where they all came from. Can you talk more about this?

Of course there are differences but the bottom line is true for all of them, they are all made up.
Do you believe all of the other religions are true or are they just made up?

This argument is unassailable, of course, almost to the point of being a meaningless platitude.

It's unassailable because it's true, we are what we are and we can not just believe anything, if we want to believe something that we would normally not believe we must fight to believe it, we will even tell ourselves lies in order to believe it.
You do not want the truth and you will fight tooth and nail not to hear it or see it, that is quite normal, you want with all your heart and soul for their to be a God, not only a God but the Christian God because that is the God you were either raised to believe in or want to believe in and you are not doing anything that is in the least bit unusual, billions of people do it every day all over the world, that does not mean that what they all try to do is true, in fact even you will agree that at best only some of them can possibly be right, unfortunately you would irrationally put yourself among the ones who are right never for a moment thinking that they could all be wrong.

 

[Willtor]

Of course there are differences but the bottom line is true for all of them, they are all made up.
Do you believe all of the other religions are true or are they just made up?

No.

I don't think there's one catch-all answer that applies to all religions, or even one catch-all answer for all teachings within a single religion. Sometimes I think something is likely true, and I don't have a problem with it. Sometimes I think it is likely wrong based on an error in reasoning or an observation of something that was not well-understood. Sometimes I think a thing is based on an error that I could see myself making if I were lacking knowledge from other sources. Sometimes I think an idea is culturally evolved and possibly bears some (but likely little) correspondence to the original thing. Sometimes it occurs to me that it is a misunderstanding on the part of myself and the culture in which I was raised -- that what someone wrote was not well suited to the categories in which I think -- and what may be popular, today, is not fundamentally like the what was believed at the time it was written. Sometimes I think it's flat-out wrong, based on faulty cosmology.

And, on very rare occassions, I think it is "just made up." But I see that your scholarly study has led you to this conclusion on all points in all religions. Perhaps you are right, and I am just accepting ideas for the sake of my own comfort.

It's unassailable because it's true, we are what we are and we can not just believe anything, if we want to believe something that we would normally not believe we must fight to believe it, we will even tell ourselves lies in order to believe it.

It's unassailable because it's true. It's almost a meaningless platitude because it applies to everybody, and everybody knows it.

You do not want the truth and you will fight tooth and nail not to hear it or see it, that is quite normal, you want with all your heart and soul for their to be a God, not only a God but the Christian God because that is the God you were either raised to believe in or want to believe in and you are not doing anything that is in the least bit unusual, billions of people do it every day all over the world, that does not mean that what they all try to do is true, in fact even you will agree that at best only some of them can possibly be right, unfortunately you would irrationally put yourself among the ones who are right never for a moment thinking that they could all be wrong.

This, however, is total nonsense, and, frankly, it looks a bit like projection.

 

[sandybay]

This, however, is total nonsense, and, frankly, it looks a bit like projection.

That is the way you dismiss everything that you not or will not confront, that is the standard response so nothing new there, dismissal is the easy way out if you do not allow yourself to think, that or walk away.

 

[Willtor]

That is the way you dismiss everything that you not or will not confront, that is the standard response so nothing new there, dismissal is the easy way out if you do not allow yourself to think, that or walk away.

I say it looks like projection because I actually do concern myself with where I might be wrong. The first point you had made about not wanting to change (to adopt or remove a belief) is obviously true and something that I fight within myself.

You, however... I will point observers your profound refutation of all religions.

 

[Oncedeceived]

This is getting a bit away from cards and the forum topic, but it's a very broad and bald assertion, so I'ma keep it going unless crjmurray gets angry that his thread is being derailed...

I'm a Christian, but I see differences between all of the religions I've studied. I'm singularly impressed that you don't see any differences and that you know where they all came from. Can you talk more about this?



This argument is unassailable, of course, almost to the point of being a meaningless platitude.

I agree.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I see no difference in any of the religions because I know where they all came from, people made them up.

I understand that one from the outside looking in it might very well appear that way. It is I believe meant to persuade you to believe that very thing.

You obviously want to believe in Christianity so you will look for things that you think will confirm that your belief is justified, there is nothing unusual or strange about that, we have all done it for many things in our lives and we will continue to do it until we die, we do it when we worry about our children being safe and we do it with the love of our partners, we look for things that will keep us believing what we want most desperately to believe, we even lie to ourselves.

This too is something that makes the most sense to someone who has had no interaction with God. It is easy to dismiss something you have had no experience with. I didn't believe "Christian things" until I became a Christian which came after experiencing God. My experience is confirmed all the time by a multitude of difference areas of existence.

 

[sandybay]

This too is something that makes the most sense to someone who has had no interaction with God. It is easy to dismiss something you have had no experience with. I didn't believe "Christian things" until I became a Christian which came after experiencing God. My experience is confirmed all the time by a multitude of difference areas of existence.

You say this knowing that millions and millions of people say the exact same things about a hundred different Gods.
This is perhaps the strangest thing about religions I just do not understand, it makes no sense whatsoever to me.

What do think about the millions and millions of people who lived in the past who worshipped Gods that now no one worships? was it all a complete waste of time and effort? you must think it was because they did not worship the same God you now worship so they all went to hell, I am obviously wired differently to you.

Because the holy spirit passed me by I can happily say "I'm an atheist thank God".

 

[Loudmouth]

I voted natural occurrence. Now are you going to tell us that incredible things happen all the time so there is no need to evoke God in anything?

In which situation is there ever a need to invoke God? Can you name a single observed process in nature where God is the verified cause?

We are no the ones who have to disprove the cosmic teapot.

 

[AV1611VET]

Can you name a single observed process in nature where God is the verified cause?

QV please:

Here are some facts -- you decide:

30 October 1991: The Halloween Monster, a.k.a. The Perfect Storm, strikes the U.S. amid the "land-for-peace" Madrid peace talks; President Bush's ocean-side home destroyed.

23 August 1992: President Bush moves Madrid talks to U.S. soil; that very day, Hurricane Andrew devastates southern Florida.

16 January 1994: President Clinton meets with Syrian President Hafez Assad to discuss more "land for peace" arrangements; less than 24 hours later, a 6.9 earthquake pulverized southern California.

1 September 1993: President Clinton announces a meeting with Arafat for the Oslo peace accords, to be held on 13 September; after a week of meandering in the Atlantic Ocean, Hurricane Emily hits North Carolina on that very day.

21 January 1998: while waiting to meet with Arafat at the White House, President Clinton's sex scandal breaks out.

27 September 1998: Arafat is meeting with the president in Washington; Hurricane Georges hits Alabama and stalls. The hurricane stalls until Arafat leaves and then it dissipates. Parts of Alabama declared a disaster area.

17 October 1998: Arafat comes to the Wye Plantation meeting; incredible rains fall on Texas, which cause record flooding. Parts of Texas declared a disaster area.

3 September 1999: Secretary of State Albright meets with Arafat in Israel; Hurricane Dennis comes ashore on this very day after weeks of changing course in the Atlantic Ocean.

12-26 July 2000: Arafat at the Camp David meetings. Powerful droughts throughout the country. Forest fires explode in West into uncontrollable fires. By the end of August, 7 million acres are burnt.

9 November 2000, two days after the presidential election: Arafat meets with President Clinton at the White House to try and salvage the peace process; worst election crisis in over 100 years occurs.

Oh, wait!

You said 'verified'!

That means it has to pass science inspection.

Sorry! My bad!

 

[selfinflikted]

Really, AV? You REALLY think that storms and other natural disasters are a result of god's wrath?

 

[Loudmouth]

QV please:

Oh, wait!

You said 'verified'!

That means it has to pass science inspection.

Sorry! My bad!

Yes, I mean verified, as in "more than just your say so".

 

[AV1611VET]

Really, AV? You REALLY think that storms and other natural disasters are a result of god's wrath?

Not EVERY storm.

Just the ones He sends.

Psalm 83:15 So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.

 

[selfinflikted]

Not EVERY storm.

Just the ones He sends.

That's some real Pat Robertson-esque thinking you got going there, man. Disappointing.