Birth pangs

[iamlamad]

Birthpangs?
This is what the Lord says: Long have I restrained Myself, I have kept silence and held Myself in check; now I cry out like a woman in labor and I will suddenly destroy and devour the land. I will make the mountains waste and the pastures shriveled and dry. The rivers shall become like desert wastelands and every lake empty and dry. Isaiah 42:14-15
THATS climate change for you!
Shouldn't we all know what God intends to do? His prophets have told us, in great detail.

Yes, there is no doubt about a 'falling away' in our nations anyway. The statistics of Christian conversions in places like Asia and Africa can make the overall picture look good, but from what I know, I suspect a lot of the 'great revivals' may not be what they seem. Are they true Christianity?
For that matter, does the church fellowship you attend preach true Christianity?

The church is GROWING, not shrinking.

 

[iamlamad]

My comment


It is true that true Christianity has dwindled to historic levels in the USA and Europe

The falling away noted in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 is a different thing

Those who will specifically follow Satan's beast in the little horn [the "man" of lawlessness represent this falling]

I disagree: the timing is wrong. This departure is a SIGNIFICANT departure. Enough so that all will know it was what Paul was talking about. It could not be some leaving the church: no one would know if it was Paul's sign. The truth is, world wide the church is GROWING.

 

[iamlamad]

The numbers don't bear this out. According to a 2015 Harris Poll 70% of kids are dropping out of the Church they were raised in after leaving home. The same poll also found 50% of Jews living in America responded they no longer believe God exists.

A separate poll found over 50% of Muslims living in America and Europe do not regularly attend a Mosque, or even observe daily prayers.

Even in Israel the Sabbath is no longer observed. Nightclubs and barrooms in Tel Aviv remain open on the Sabbath, as do many retail outlets and shopping centers. Rabbinical students are also no longer exempt from military service in Israel.

As for the health of Christianity in the Middle East, I would direct your attention to a 2015 New York Times article entitled, "Is This The End Of Christianity In The Middle East ?".

AT the same time, the church is growing fast in African and Asia.

 

[iamlamad]

It's your departure only if you are part of the apostasy leaving the church, as ἀποστασία, apostasia, is apostasy not rapture. Apostasia is based on the Greek word for divorce, and the rapture is a wedding not a divorce.

Did you never look up in Strongs that this word is a compound word?

Apo, (G575) the first word, by definition according to Strong's means a
Departure of a group out of a whole group. This is speaking of SPACIAL separation

1. of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
   
   
2. of separation of a part from the whole
   
   1. where of a whole some part is taken
   This is speaking of SPACIAL separation: part of a whole separate from the entire. The Greek word for Divorce is very similar to Apostasia. In a divorce, one of two DEPARTS - goes somewhere else. Therefore Miles Coverdale and others were right on in translating this a a departure.
   
   

 

[tatteredsoul]

It was 1/3 of Europe TWICE.

When the "event" happens, it will affect the entire world population. The European population was not the world population at that time. Plague also happened in China but it wasn't as devestating. Those in Europe had such high numbers because of their own problems with isolation and sanitation.

About 25 million people died from the bubonic plague: that was about 6.7% of the world population at the time. For perspective, that would be 450 million people today - about 1.5 times the population of the US.

That isn't a lot of people when you compare that to the world population - and expecially in the context of a disease that is meant to kill ~90% of the world population.

 

[keras]

The church is GROWING, not shrinking.

What did Mark Twain say: There is statistics and there is damned lies...
Have you really got proof of this supposed church growth? Are they really Christian, or the usual syncretism?

Re: deaths caused by the 'four horsemen'. Again statistic's are misleading and inaccurate. Wars; there has always been fighting around the world, think of the American Indians also the New Zealand Maoris, the tribes were constantly trying to kill each other.
Plagues; the Spanish flu pandemic in 1919, the estimates of deaths range from 50 million to 100 mil. We just don't know and typhoid killed millions at that time as well.
Easily 1/4 of the people who have lived, died from wars, famines and disease.

 

[iamlamad]

What did Mark Twain say: There is statistics and there is damned lies...
Have you really got proof of this supposed church growth? Are they really Christian, or the usual syncretism?

Re: deaths caused by the 'four horsemen'. Again statistic's are misleading and inaccurate. Wars; there has always been fighting around the world, think of the American Indians also the New Zealand Maoris, the tribes were constantly trying to kill each other.
Plagues; the Spanish flu pandemic in 1919, the estimates of deaths range from 50 million to 100 mil. We just don't know and typhoid killed millions at that time as well.
Easily 1/4 of the people who have lived, died from wars, famines and disease.

"And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth"

This is not speaking of the number or percentage of people killed: it is telling us that God will limit their theater of operation to 1/4 the surface of the earth. That 1/4 would take in approximately Europe, the Middle East and Africa, with the center at Jerusalem where the church began.

 

[iamlamad]

When the "event" happens, it will affect the entire world population. The European population was not the world population at that time. Plague also happened in China but it wasn't as devestating. Those in Europe had such high numbers because of their own problems with isolation and sanitation.

About 25 million people died from the bubonic plague: that was about 6.7% of the world population at the time. For perspective, that would be 450 million people today - about 1.5 times the population of the US.

That isn't a lot of people when you compare that to the world population - and expecially in the context of a disease that is meant to kill ~90% of the world population.

You are looking into the future, while God the Holy Spirit, causing John to write, was speaking of the start of the church age...this is HISTORY to us. We cannot pull these first 5 seals out of their context. If we study chapters 4 & 5, which is the context for this first seals, we find the TIMING in the context is around 32 AD - when Jesus ascended back to heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down. In chapter 5, John got to see this event in the vision. It was indeed a vision of the past for John, for he was seeing this vision perhaps 95 AD, LONG after Jesus had ascended and the Holy Spirit sent down. No one can find 2000 years in these verses - because it is just not there. John took us on a quick history of the church in the first five seals.

Next, the text actually tells us that these three horsemen, the Red, the Black and the Pale, will be LIMITED to 1/4 the earth's surface. That would be approximately Europe and African and of course the Middle East between. So 1/3 Europe's population was a high percentage of people then. Many people don't realize this, but the Muslim invasion after Muhammad's death came when Europe was devastated by the black plague, so the Muslims found it easy to conquer much territory quickly.

Where do you get 90%? Did you ad lib that part?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Are they really Christian, or the usual syncretism?

I think this question (though I don't know what syncretism is) is a good way to go about discerning the issues. Falling away and growth of the church are dynamic principles. It's hard to say, "this is happening" or "this isn't happening" because they are both happening off and on constantly. People get deceived and fall away all the time, every day. People make choices to become sincere and try harder to follow the principles of Jesus every day, thus a "falling away" and a "growth" are both happening at the same time.

It's like that in the Revelation, too. Paul talks about how the end will not come without a great falling away, while at the same time we hear about this 144k faithful believers being hammered together into God's end time church along with a "great multitude no one can count", while Jesus also said the way is narrow and there are few who find/follow it. The only way to consistently arrive at the truth is to remain flexible in how we interpret the various teachings and events around us.

Anyone who relies on, "the Bible says so" will almost certainly end up fooling themselves into thinking that their little piece of the puzzle equates to the bigger picture.

As for "The Great" falling away, I think it will probably have a lot to do with insincerity and luke warmness. Jesus talked about people rocking up at the gates wanting to be let in, but being denied. They obviously believed they should be let in, meaning that these are people who thought they were right with God. He asked the people, "why do you call me Lord, but no not obey me".

He talked about a time (i.e. the end time) when people would kill us, "thinking they are doing God a service". He talked about the sheep and the goats, with the goats being people who believed they were right with God, but being rejected. He quoted Isaiah who said, "This people draw near to me with their lips, but their heart is far from me".

The False prophet is described as having the "horns of a lamb" but "speaking with the mouth of a dragon", suggesting that the False prophet will probably claim to have the authority of Jesus, but will instead teach contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

I believe the Great Falling away will be a worldwide movement toward false peace and sincerity which is disguised as genuine faith. In the Revelation Jesus talks about luke-warm people, and how much God hates the luke-warmness. Imagine people going around claiming to represent you, but teaching and behaving contrary to what you actually believe and teach.

I've encountered hundreds of people who are sick of Christianity, and when I ask them why, they cite the prosperity gospel, hatred for homosexuals, self righteousness, false healings/miracles, bigotry, and any number of other genuine complaints, but the most frustrating thing is that they express the complaints as though this is what Christianity really is all about. In many cases this kind of reasoning becomes a convenient doctrine to accuse Christianity as a result of their own personal biases, but there's plenty of examples where the testimony of professing Christians who act contrary to what Jesus taught really do turn people away from God.

The "falling away" will certainly include professing Christians, but I think the damage will be much greater concerning those looking on who might have been inspired by genuine faith, but only see greed, hypocrisy and self righteousness being justified by "faith".

 

[tatteredsoul]

You are looking into the future, while God the Holy Spirit, causing John to write, was speaking of the start of the church age...this is HISTORY to us. We cannot pull these first 5 seals out of their context. If we study chapters 4 & 5, which is the context for this first seals, we find the TIMING in the context is around 32 AD - when Jesus ascended back to heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down. In chapter 5, John got to see this event in the vision. It was indeed a vision of the past for John, for he was seeing this vision perhaps 95 AD, LONG after Jesus had ascended and the Holy Spirit sent down. No one can find 2000 years in these verses - because it is just not there. John took us on a quick history of the church in the first five seals.

Next, the text actually tells us that these three horsemen, the Red, the Black and the Pale, will be LIMITED to 1/4 the earth's surface. That would be approximately Europe and African and of course the Middle East between. So 1/3 Europe's population was a high percentage of people then. Many people don't realize this, but the Muslim invasion after Muhammad's death came when Europe was devastated by the black plague, so the Muslims found it easy to conquer much territory quickly.

Where do you get 90%? Did you ad lib that part?

I am not a preterist, mainly because there is still prophey yet to come true. We are not in the 1000 year period, Gog and Magog hasn't happened, there was no worldly war against Christ at Har Megiddo. We haven't gotten our perfected bodies yet, and Constantine was not the white horse rider. We are barely in the birth pangs - which started 2000 years ago.

Pregnancy pains are exponential, not linear. You go very long without pains, and then at the point close to delivering you get very intense pain, over a shorter and shorter period of time.

This is how the birth pangs will be for the world: an average of pain over a long period, and then the contractions come.

Contractions have not started yet; the Church is not in labor yet. What John sees is extremely similar to the prophecy of the end Christ gave in Matthew. The Church age has not ended.

But, the plague did not kill enough people for it to be a worldwide pandemic like many hope for (in order to make money.) Not at all; only 6.7% of the world population perished. The 90% figure has always been the ideal for entities who think they control the world. Bill Gates has talked about it, some politicians, and it is on several pieces of literature and icons. It isn't random.

How does Bill Gates propose we go from 7 Billion to 500,000,000 people WORLDWIDE? How do any of these people wjo are vocal plan on reducing the population to the ideal 500 million? That would a good question. But, we know at least one way (it is the context of the OP).

 

[iamlamad]

I am not a preterist, mainly because there is still prophey yet to come true. We are not in the 1000 year period, Gog and Magog hasn't happened, there was no worldly war against Christ at Har Megiddo. We haven't gotten our perfected bodies yet, and Constantine was not the white horse rider. We are barely in the birth pangs - which started 2000 years ago.

Pregnancy pains are exponential, not linear. You go very long without pains, and then at the point close to delivering you get very intense pain, over a shorter and shorter period of time.

This is how the birth pangs will be for the world: an average of pain over a long period, and then the contractions come.

Contractions have not started yet; the Church is not in labor yet. What John sees is extremely similar to the prophecy of the end Christ gave in Matthew. The Church age has not ended.

But, the plague did not kill enough people for it to be a worldwide pandemic like many hope for (in order to make money.) Not at all; only 6.7% of the world population perished. The 90% figure has always been the ideal for entities who think they control the world. Bill Gates has talked about it, some politicians, and it is on several pieces of literature and icons. It isn't random.

How does Bill Gates propose we go from 7 Billion to 500,000,000 people WORLDWIDE? How do any of these people wjo are vocal plan on reducing the population to the ideal 500 million? That would a good question. But, we know at least one way (it is the context of the OP).

What? The 144,000 are NOT the church! They are JEWS and HEBREWS.

NO one need worry about world population: when the pretrib rapture comes, close to 50% of earth's population will disappear! (I am including all children under the age of accountability.) Next, the 6th trumpet will take another 1/3.

There is no such thing in truth as "the falling away." King James did a very poor translation. Paul did much better with a "taking out of the way."

No scripture tells us the pale horse and rider would kill ANY percentage. They (the RED the BLACK and the PALE) were limited to 1/4 of the earth's surface...so Europe and Africa and what is between.

(Sorry, I clicked on the wrong link)

 

[iamlamad]

I think this question (though I don't know what syncretism is) is a good way to go about discerning the issues. Falling away and growth of the church are dynamic principles. It's hard to say, "this is happening" or "this isn't happening" because they are both happening off and on constantly. People get deceived and fall away all the time, every day. People make choices to become sincere and try harder to follow the principles of Jesus every day, thus a "falling away" and a "growth" are both happening at the same time.

It's like that in the Revelation, too. Paul talks about how the end will not come without a great falling away, while at the same time we hear about this 144k faithful believers being hammered together into God's end time church along with a "great multitude no one can count", while Jesus also said the way is narrow and there are few who find/follow it. The only way to consistently arrive at the truth is to remain flexible in how we interpret the various teachings and events around us.

Anyone who relies on, "the Bible says so" will almost certainly end up fooling themselves into thinking that their little piece of the puzzle equates to the bigger picture.

As for "The Great" falling away, I think it will probably have a lot to do with insincerity and luke warmness. Jesus talked about people rocking up at the gates wanting to be let in, but being denied. They obviously believed they should be let in, meaning that these are people who thought they were right with God. He asked the people, "why do you call me Lord, but no not obey me".

He talked about a time (i.e. the end time) when people would kill us, "thinking they are doing God a service". He talked about the sheep and the goats, with the goats being people who believed they were right with God, but being rejected. He quoted Isaiah who said, "This people draw near to me with their lips, but their heart is far from me".

The False prophet is described as having the "horns of a lamb" but "speaking with the mouth of a dragon", suggesting that the False prophet will probably claim to have the authority of Jesus, but will instead teach contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

I believe the Great Falling away will be a worldwide movement toward false peace and sincerity which is disguised as genuine faith. In the Revelation Jesus talks about luke-warm people, and how much God hates the luke-warmness. Imagine people going around claiming to represent you, but teaching and behaving contrary to what you actually believe and teach.

I've encountered hundreds of people who are sick of Christianity, and when I ask them why, they cite the prosperity gospel, hatred for homosexuals, self righteousness, false healings/miracles, bigotry, and any number of other genuine complaints, but the most frustrating thing is that they express the complaints as though this is what Christianity really is all about. In many cases this kind of reasoning becomes a convenient doctrine to accuse Christianity as a result of their own personal biases, but there's plenty of examples where the testimony of professing Christians who act contrary to what Jesus taught really do turn people away from God.

The "falling away" will certainly include professing Christians, but I think the damage will be much greater concerning those looking on who might have been inspired by genuine faith, but only see greed, hypocrisy and self righteousness being justified by "faith".

What? The 144,000 are NOT the church! They are JEWS and HEBREWS.

the Great Falling away This idea came from the King James very poor translation of "apostasia." Paul did a much better job, writing "taken out of the way." Coverdale did a good translation is writing "the departing." Of course Paul's theme is the gathering or rapture, so "taken out of the way" and "departing" fits perfectly. There will not be a great (significant) "falling away." There WILL be a great departure!

 

[Endtime Survivors]

What? The 144,000 are NOT the church! They are JEWS and HEBREWS.

Nah. The description of these people says that they follow the lamb withersoever he goeth. If there is a flesh Jew who follows the lamb withersoever he goeth then it no longer matters that he is a jew, anymore than it matters that a follow of Jesus may be black, white, from europe, africa, Australia or where ever.

Besides, the Jews represent only 1 (or maybe 2) of the twelve tribes listed in the Revelation (i.e. the tribe of Judah). Where will the other tribes come from? They've gone extinct. Unless, you're suggesting that God will decide that it's fine for one tribe to represent all 12 tribes? But then what would be the point of specifying the other tribes?

Or, maybe God will miraculously resurrect the genetic material needed to make up the other 11 tribes? But what would be the point of that when the highest revelation of God (i.e. Jesus) already said that the kingdom of Heaven does not come with observation (i.e. the fleshly aspects of life, like DNA) but rather is found on the inside (i.e. having a right spirit with God). After all, Jesus told the Jews (after they claimed to be the children of Abraham) that people with the faith of Abraham are the children of Abraham.

the Great Falling away This idea came from the King James very poor translation of "apostasia." Paul did a much better job, writing "taken out of the way." Coverdale did a good translation is writing "the departing." Of course Paul's theme is the gathering or rapture, so "taken out of the way" and "departing" fits perfectly. There will not be a great (significant) "falling away." There WILL be a great departure!

"Falling away"/ "apostate" and "taken out of the way" are very different concepts. I doubt it was a "poor translation". It sounds more like a pre-tribber grasping at straws. Check the definition for "apostate" and you'll find it has nothing to do with the concept of God coming for his people (i.e. "taken out of the way").

This is the fruit I have most commonly found from pre-tribbers; in their efforts to make their theory conform to prophecy, they get things so twisted around that a concept like "apostate" becomes something good (like being "taken out of the way" by God).

I'm reminded of Isaiah's reference to people who call evil good and good evil.

 

[Straightshot]

"the Great Falling away This idea came from the King James very poor translation of "apostasia." Paul did a much better job, writing "taken out of the way." Coverdale did a good translation is writing "the departing." Of course Paul's theme is the gathering or rapture, so "taken out of the way" and "departing" fits perfectly. There will not be a great (significant) "falling away." There WILL be a great departure!"


The "departure" as expressed is one of the Muslim intransigence [the transgressors] at the time of the end that has denied the Lord and instead worships the false "god" Allah .... a "god" of the ancient Assyrians and Babylonians .... Allah does not exist, but is a cover for Satan and his beast in the little horn [2 Thessalonians 2:3-12; Revelation 9:1; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

This "departure" is not a reference to the Lord's pre-tribulation call for the dead in Christ and the living at the time

He has said that the gate is a narrow one and few ever find it .... past and today [Matthew 7:13-14]

So there will be very few living at the time of His calling .... so small that the world will not even notice

Most of professing Christianity today is sorely apostate and the number of true ecclesia has dwindled just in the few years

Why? because the leaders of organized Christianity do not tell their memberships what they need to hear, but what they want to hear

 

[Straightshot]

My comment about the 144000 of Israel .... this is exactly who they will be .... of Israel

.... not the church of today

These will take the gospel of the kingdom first to Israel and then to the nations of the Gentiles during the coming tribulation

 

[iamlamad]

Nah. The description of these people says that they follow the lamb withersoever he goeth. If there is a flesh Jew who follows the lamb withersoever he goeth then it no longer matters that he is a jew, anymore than it matters that a follow of Jesus may be black, white, from europe, africa, Australia or where ever.

Besides, the Jews represent only 1 (or maybe 2) of the twelve tribes listed in the Revelation (i.e. the tribe of Judah). Where will the other tribes come from? They've gone extinct. Unless, you're suggesting that God will decide that it's fine for one tribe to represent all 12 tribes? But then what would be the point of specifying the other tribes?

Or, maybe God will miraculously resurrect the genetic material needed to make up the other 11 tribes? But what would be the point of that when the highest revelation of God (i.e. Jesus) already said that the kingdom of Heaven does not come with observation (i.e. the fleshly aspects of life, like DNA) but rather is found on the inside (i.e. having a right spirit with God). After all, Jesus told the Jews (after they claimed to be the children of Abraham) that people with the faith of Abraham are the children of Abraham.



"Falling away"/ "apostate" and "taken out of the way" are very different concepts. I doubt it was a "poor translation". It sounds more like a pre-tribber grasping at straws. Check the definition for "apostate" and you'll find it has nothing to do with the concept of God coming for his people (i.e. "taken out of the way").

This is the fruit I have most commonly found from pre-tribbers; in their efforts to make their theory conform to prophecy, they get things so twisted around that a concept like "apostate" becomes something good (like being "taken out of the way" by God).

I'm reminded of Isaiah's reference to people who call evil good and good evil.

So you tell us what John and the Holy Spirit meant here:

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.


6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.


7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.


8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

If you imagine these verses are referencing the Gentile church of today, we will have very little in common. I take these verses very literally: these are people from the 12 tribes of Israel, all descendants of Jacob. John was not just trying to fill up a page here.

By the way, the 11 other tribes are lost only to man, not to God.

What we can deduce: this is after the rapture. If it was before, they would have been raptured with the church. It seems that after the rapture they realized that Jesus WAS their Messiah so turned to Him.

I will ignore your comment about pretrib. Most of them are wrong about Revelation anyway.

 

[iamlamad]

So you tell us what John and the Holy Spirit meant here:

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.


6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.


7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.


8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

If you imagine these verses are referencing the Gentile church of today, we will have very little in common. I take these verses very literally: these are people from the 12 tribes of Israel, all descendants of Jacob. John was not just trying to fill up a page here.

By the way, the 11 other tribes are lost only to man, not to God.

"the Great Falling away This idea came from the King James very poor translation of "apostasia." Paul did a much better job, writing "taken out of the way." Coverdale did a good translation is writing "the departing." Of course Paul's theme is the gathering or rapture, so "taken out of the way" and "departing" fits perfectly. There will not be a great (significant) "falling away." There WILL be a great departure!"


The "departure" as expressed is one of the Muslim intransigence [the transgressors] at the time of the end that has denied the Lord and instead worships the false "god" Allah .... a "god" of the ancient Assyrians and Babylonians .... Allah does not exist, but is a cover for Satan and his beast in the little horn [2 Thessalonians 2:3-12; Revelation 9:1; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

This "departure" is not a reference to the Lord's pre-tribulation call for the dead in Christ and the living at the time

He has said that the gate is a narrow one and few ever find it .... past and today [Matthew 7:13-14]

So there will be very few living at the time of His calling .... so small that the world will not even notice

Most of professing Christianity today is sorely apostate and the number of true ecclesia has dwindled just in the few years

Why? because the leaders of organized Christianity do not tell their memberships what they need to hear, but what they want to hear

Let's look and see where "departing" came from:
2 Thes. 2:3

Tyndale 1526:
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

Coverdale 1535
Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion

Geneva Bible 1587
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Does this translation fit Paul's theme of the gathering? Certainly it does.
Does this translation fit the context of something "taken out of the way?" Certainly it does.

 

[Straightshot]

The Lord will reduce His restraint against Satan to allow for his man of lawlessness

This action has nothing to do with His pre-tribulation call for His true ecclesia

2 Thessalonians
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Lexicon :: Strong's G646 - apostasia
ἀποστασία
Transliteration
apostasia
Pronunciation
ä-po-stä-sē'-ä ἀποστάσιον(G647)
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: to forsake (with G575) (1x), falling away (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake

2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


However, this scripture does tell of the gathering [His call]

2 Thessalonians
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

 

[dysert]

Arch from Temple of Ba'al to Stand in New York

Read more at http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/7...ch-temple-baal-stand-nyc/#OdtSUAkjdMWqCyJG.99

 

[keras]

This is not speaking of the number or percentage of people killed: it is telling us that God will limit their theater of operation to 1/4 the surface of the earth. That 1/4 would take in approximately Europe, the Middle East and Africa, with the center at Jerusalem where the church began.

Wrong Lamad, the first Seal horseman is told to ride forth to conquer....the second was told to take away peace from the earth....the third has to do with worldwide economic problems.....the fourth has the power to kill a quarter of the earth.
In no way are these 4 restricted to only 1/4 of the earth. Proved by Zechariah 1:8-11, Zechariah 6:1-8....sent out to range over the whole earth.

Re who are the 144,000; As all the records of tribal lineage were burned in 70 AD, only God knows who belongs to which tribe. Amos 9:9 But as we know, true Israelites are now people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Ephesians 2:11-18 So when all the true Christian believers are gathered in the holy Land, Revelation 7:9, the Lord will designate everyone to one of the 12 tribes, according to their personal characteristics. There are lists of these tribal differences, gleaned from how they were in ancient times.
The Lord will stand on Mount Zion, Revelation 14:1, and select 12,000 young people from each tribe and send them out in pairs, Luke 10:1-10, to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19

Nah. The description of these people says that they follow the lamb withersoever he goeth. If there is a flesh Jew who follows the lamb withersoever he goeth then it no longer matters that he is a jew, anymore than it matters that a follow of Jesus may be black, white, from europe, africa, Australia or where ever.

This is perfectly correct and Biblical. Only those with the false rapture agenda oppose it.