Birth pangs

[Psalm3704]

The gathering of the Lord's people at the Return of Jesus is explicitly stated in Matthew 24:31. Paralleled by 1 Thessalonians 4:17,

If they're being gathered from heaven, how much higher can they go when they are caught up?

Matthew 24:31 New King James Version (NKJV)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.​

The gathering of the Lord's people at the Return of Jesus is explicitly stated in Matthew 24:31. Paralleled by 1 Thessalonians 4:17, when His people; those who refused the mark of the beast, those who endured the Great tribulation and those who were kept in a place of safety for those 1260 days. Revelation 12:14

The church is not the woman of Revelation 12:14.

I will admit that this gathering may take place 30 days before Armageddon, Revelation 19:6-9, for the Lord's people to partake of the Wedding supper of the Lamb, in the clouds or on earth. [easier for the caterers!]
I do not see anywhere that people go to stay in heaven, there is simply no point in that idea.

Well than, you're not post-trib. More like a 5th vial rapturist who thought he was a postie all this time. I hate to break this to you Keras but post-tribulation means after the tribulation, as in after the 7th vial.

One other thing. How will you know what you're eating at the marriage supper when you're celebrating in utter darkness?

Ezekiel 32:8 Good News Translation (GNT)
I will put out all the lights of heaven and plunge your world into darkness. I, the Sovereign Lord, have spoken.​

.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Thanks Endtime Survivor, for your reasoned and well written posts.

Thanks, keras.

You mean like these comments you posted below? All you did was just post your own opinions of what you "think" the bible means.

Yeah, thanks for taking the time to point out those areas where I did reference the Bible and then made comments on how I think those verses are relevant to the topic. But I find your reasoning strange. You then go on to say that all I did was post my opinions about what I think the bible means. I referenced scripture and gave an interpretation as to what I think it means.

I'm not sure why you have such a problem with me presenting an opinion on what I think the scriptures mean. Should I not think about what they mean? Should I keep my thoughts about God's ways secret and quiet from anyone else, lest I be guilty of "having an opinion"?

If your conclusions are not based on what you think the bible means, then on what basis have you arrived at your conclusions?

 

[Straightshot]

"There's no need for a post-tribulation rapture because the church is already in heaven."


This is true .... those who dwell in heaven during the tribulation [Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

Here is the proof [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 11:16-17; 12:12; 13:6; 17:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 .... those already on thrones]

There are only 2 other noted resurrections in Revelation's unfolding

The Lord's two prophets just as the end of the 70th week of the tribulation period [Revelation 11:11-12], and the martyrs of both Israel and the Gentiles who become believers during the tribulation [Revelation 6:9-11; 15:2-3; 20:4 .... those beheaded]

Both of these resurrections will occur at the ending of the 2520 day tribulation and just before the battle of Armageddon begins which will last for 30 days [Revelation 11:18-19; 15:5-8; 16:1-21]

The gathering of mortal survivors of the tribulation of both Israel and of the nations is not a resurrection .... those found believing just after the days of the tribulation will enter the Lord's millennial kingdom as mortals and these will populate the kingdom on the earth [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

Post-tribulational thinking is the ruse of Satan who wants to cause men to refute the Lord's pre-tribulation call [Revelation 3:10; 18:4] and thereby missing it .... and those who have been deceived will enter the tribulation [Revelation 3:15-20]

[Staff edit]

Billions of humans will be killed in the tribulation and will not turn to the Lord during the period .... these will be lost forever and will end up here [Revelation 20:11-15]

.... this is the devil's desire [Revelation 12:12]

[Staff edit]

.... and the birth pangs speak of Israel's time of trouble in the tribulation [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 20: 33-44; Matthew 24; Luke 21:20-36] .... this period of the 70th week decreed for the nation has not yet begun as we speak

The devil has done his bidding on this truth as well .... and he has placed it in the same package with post-tribulation thinking [replacement theology]

Be careful what you have been persuaded to believe

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Well than, you're not post-trib. More like a 5th vial rapturist who thought he was a postie all this time. I hate to break this to you Keras but post-tribulation means after the tribulation, as in after the 7th vial.

It's strange how popular this position seems to have become. The Tribulation and the Wrath are not the same thing. They are completely separate spiritual concepts. Tribulation/persecution is something that God allows all his followers to experience; it's just part of learning to become spiritually mature and to overcome.

Wrath is specifically directed at God's enemies and is not meant to teach. By the time wrath comes it's too late, or as the Angel sounding the 7th trumpet says, "let there be time no longer". It's like he's saying, "time's up; there is no further chance for repentance. Jesus has taken his people up for the marriage supper of the lamb and now the REALLY violent stuff is about to be poured out on a disobedient and spiritually desolate world below.

If the Wrath were happening at the same time as the Tribulation then how is it decided who gets the trumpets (i.e. tribulation) and who gets the bowls (i.e. the wrath)? According to pre-trib there are not more Christians/saints left so how is the remaining population of unbelievers divided up between the two (i.e. who gets the trib and who gets the wrath)?

Was John complacent? Did John forget to mentioned one of the most important event in prophecy involving the rapture of the church? No, he did not. John mentioned the great multitude in heaven from Revelation 19:1-10. There's no need for a post-tribulation rapture because the church is already in heaven.

I really don't understand how you work out your timeline. John doesn't mention anything about the rapture in Revelation 19 because it's already taken place. The church is there, with Jesus and the chapter is described from a Heavenly perspective. When they leave with Jesus on his white horse, they are going down to the battle of Armageddon, which is the last bowl of wrath (i.e. number 7).

If they are going down for the last bowl, then that necessitates that while they were up there partying, the previous bowls (1-6) must have been poured out, unless you're suggesting that the tribulation saints are gathered up by Jesus after the 6th bowl of wrath? Or, are you suggesting that the bowls will not be poured out in order from 1-7, in which case one wonders why God would bother to number them Or, are you suggesting there will be more than one marriage supper of the lamb so that the tribulation saints can have their little slice of cake, too? Or, are you suggesting that the tribulation saints will not partake of the marriage supper of the lamb? Please elaborate.

No, it makes more sense that the church goes through the Great Tribulation, out of which comes a great multitude no one could count. These are people who responded to God's discipline and chose to repent as a result. At the end of that period of Great Tribulation they are "raptured" (i.e. at the sound of a trumpet, just as Jesus and Paul describe, with Paul in particular describing it as the "last" trumpet).

 

[Straightshot]

"Tribulation/persecution is something that God allows all his followers to experience; it's just part of learning to become spiritually mature and to overcome."

[Staff edit]

If what you say is true, then multitudes have missed the opportunity that you speak of

How long do you think that it will take you to learn to become what you say when you enter the Lord's unprecedented wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world .... you not have much time to learn and your environment will not be conducive for the learning

I would suggest that you start now and before His judgment comes .... this is possible

The idea that a man must be purified in the Lord's coming trap of His wrath and judgment is a folly and a religion of works needed for a man's salvation

The Lord has done it all for you and there is not one thing that you can do to claim credit

How spiritual do you think you need to be for your salvation of works?

If you think you need His wrath upon you to become more spiritual and to gain your own salvation, tell me what is wrong with this picture?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

You guys need to start a new thread, you are off topic.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

 

[Endtime Survivors]

You guys need to start a new thread, you are off topic.

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo >.<

 

[iamlamad]

"There's no need for a post-tribulation rapture because the church is already in heaven."


This is true .... those who dwell in heaven during the tribulation [Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

Here is the proof [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 11:16-17; 12:12; 13:6; 17:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 .... those already on thrones]

There are only 2 other noted resurrections in Revelation's unfolding

The Lord's two prophets just as the end of the 70th week of the tribulation period [Revelation 11:11-12], and the martyrs of both Israel and the Gentiles who become believers during the tribulation [Revelation 6:9-11; 15:2-3; 20:4 .... those beheaded]

Both of these resurrections will occur at the ending of the 2520 day tribulation and just before the battle of Armageddon begins which will last for 30 days [Revelation 11:18-19; 15:5-8; 16:1-21]

The gathering of mortal survivors of the tribulation of both Israel and of the nations is not a resurrection .... those found believing just after the days of the tribulation will enter the Lord's millennial kingdom as mortals and these will populate the kingdom on the earth [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

Post-tribulational thinking is the ruse of Satan who wants to cause men to refute the Lord's pre-tribulation call [Revelation 3:10; 18:4] and thereby missing it .... and those who have been deceived will enter the tribulation [Revelation 3:15-20]

[Staff edit]

Billions of humans will be killed in the tribulation and will not turn to the Lord during the period .... these will be lost forever and will end up here [Revelation 20:11-15]

.... this is the devil's desire [Revelation 12:12]

[Staff edit]

.... and the birth pangs speak of Israel's time of trouble in the tribulation [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 20: 33-44; Matthew 24; Luke 21:20-36] .... this period of the 70th week decreed for the nation has not yet begun as we speak

The devil has done his bidding on this truth as well .... and he has placed it in the same package with post-tribulation thinking [replacement theology]

Be careful what you have been persuaded to believe

Good post. I can agree with you here.

 

[iamlamad]

"Tribulation/persecution is something that God allows all his followers to experience; it's just part of learning to become spiritually mature and to overcome."

[Staff edit]

If what you say is true, then multitudes have missed the opportunity that you speak of

How long do you think that it will take you to learn to become what you say when you enter the Lord's unprecedented wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world .... you not have much time to learn and your environment will not be conducive for the learning

I would suggest that you start now and before His judgment comes .... this is possible

The idea that a man must be purified in the Lord's coming trap of His wrath and judgment is a folly and a religion of works needed for a man's salvation

The Lord has done it all for you and there is not one thing that you can do to claim credit

How spiritual do you think you need to be for your salvation of works?

If you think you need His wrath upon you to become more spiritual and to gain your own salvation, tell me what is wrong with this picture?

Agreed: the very moment we say yes to Jesus, we become the righteous of God in Christ Jesus. From that moment on we will never become any more righteous. This theory of purification is MYTH.

However, that said, every believer SHOULD be filled with His spirit (the scriptural way). (See Acts 2, 8, 10, 19)

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo >.<

Yeeeeeeeeesssssss! Thread hijacking is not cool. Start another thread.

 

[iamlamad]

It's strange how popular this position seems to have become. The Tribulation and the Wrath are not the same thing. They are completely separate spiritual concepts. Tribulation/persecution is something that God allows all his followers to experience; it's just part of learning to become spiritually mature and to overcome.

Wrath is specifically directed at God's enemies and is not meant to teach. By the time wrath comes it's too late, or as the Angel sounding the 7th trumpet says, "let there be time no longer". It's like he's saying, "time's up; there is no further chance for repentance. Jesus has taken his people up for the marriage supper of the lamb and now the REALLY violent stuff is about to be poured out on a disobedient and spiritually desolate world below.

If the Wrath were happening at the same time as the Tribulation then how is it decided who gets the trumpets (i.e. tribulation) and who gets the bowls (i.e. the wrath)? According to pre-trib there are not more Christians/saints left so how is the remaining population of unbelievers divided up between the two (i.e. who gets the trib and who gets the wrath)?



I really don't understand how you work out your timeline. John doesn't mention anything about the rapture in Revelation 19 because it's already taken place. The church is there, with Jesus and the chapter is described from a Heavenly perspective. When they leave with Jesus on his white horse, they are going down to the battle of Armageddon, which is the last bowl of wrath (i.e. number 7).

If they are going down for the last bowl, then that necessitates that while they were up there partying, the previous bowls (1-6) must have been poured out, unless you're suggesting that the tribulation saints are gathered up by Jesus after the 6th bowl of wrath? Or, are you suggesting that the bowls will not be poured out in order from 1-7, in which case one wonders why God would bother to number them Or, are you suggesting there will be more than one marriage supper of the lamb so that the tribulation saints can have their little slice of cake, too? Or, are you suggesting that the tribulation saints will not partake of the marriage supper of the lamb? Please elaborate.

No, it makes more sense that the church goes through the Great Tribulation, out of which comes a great multitude no one could count. These are people who responded to God's discipline and chose to repent as a result. At the end of that period of Great Tribulation they are "raptured" (i.e. at the sound of a trumpet, just as Jesus and Paul describe, with Paul in particular describing it as the "last" trumpet).

The Tribulation and the Wrath are not the same thing.

Who said? Does the scripture bear this out? This is a theory that does not come from scripture. Many understand that Satan is very angry and persecutes believers after he is cast down. However, we must consider TIMING. The truth is, God's wrath begins right where John tells us it does: at the 6th seal or at the latest the 7th seal, and WITH the first trumpet judgment.

This is absolutely proven for those who wear no preconceived glasses. The Old testament scriptures on the Day of the Lord tell us that God will destroy the world and the sinners in the world. That is the basis of "the day of the Lord." Anyone (without preconceptions) can see that the trumpets are step by step destroying this world. So in truth, God's wrath will be poured out from the very first trumpet judgment to the last vial judgment. In other words, THE ENTIRE 70TH WEEK will be God's wrath poured out.

But DURING this 70th week, in the last half, Satan's wrath will be poured out also, for he will be very angry knowing his time is very short.

The truth then, is that tribulation and God's wrath come AT THE SAME TIME and cannot be separated. In fact, when Satan's wrath is at its peak, and the days of great tribulation are at their peak, God will begin to SHORTEN those days by pouring out the vials of His wrath..........so again both happening AT THE SAME TIME.

This is only one reason why pretrib is the truth of scripture. Pretrib IS prewrath. (prewrathers don't know where the "trib" starts.)

how is it decided who gets the trumpets (i.e. tribulation) and who gets the bowls (i.e. the wrath)

Good question. Another good question: WHO goes up in the rapture? The answer is, this is NO PROBLEM for God. HE chooses. If you notice, some of the trumpets are directed at destruction of EARTH, not directed towards people. Of course, when the sea turns to blood, it will affect all people on the sea. When the 6th trumpet comes, will the killing be random? I doubt it. But John really does not tell us.

According to pre-trib there are not more Christians/saints left so how is the remaining population of unbelievers divided up between the two

I disagree and I am pretrib. Millions if not billions of fence setters who are called Christians will be left behind. Most of this, I assume, will realize they were at best only luke warm, and will suddenly get very serious with God. And we hope, during the course of the week, that more millions will repent and get on God's side. We KNOW there will be people who refuse the mark and lose their head. We see this in chapter 15.

As for timing, one thing is sure (again for those with no preconceptions): the marriage and supper will be IN HEAVEN and the church will BE THERE in chapter 19. When will they arrive? That is where most disagreement comes. The truth is, John SAW THEM (the raptured church) in heaven around the throne in chapter 7, before the week begins. So we know the rapture will be before the trib or week starts.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Yeeeeeeeeesssssss! Thread hijacking is not cool. Start another thread.

At least part of the thread relates to what it means to be right with God before the rapture (i.e. a pre-trib scenario). The falling away, or "apostia", what it means to be subjected to wrath or tribulation, if there is any difference between the two etc. Depending on one's perspective, the concept of "birth pangs" can be a fairly broad topic.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

At least part of the thread relates to what it means to be right with God before the rapture (i.e. a pre-trib scenario). The falling away, or "apostia", what it means to be subjected to wrath or tribulation, if there is any difference between the two etc. Depending on one's perspective, the concept of "birth pangs" can be a fairly broad topic.

The subject can be broad , this is true. But you guys saw the way this thread was going and you have deliberately derailed it . This is what gets threads closed down. If you don't mind, please take your discussion to another thread.

 

[Straightshot]

My comment


"However, that said, every believer SHOULD be filled with His spirit"


Must be [John 3] .... if not there is no connection and the man is just a dead one walking around

And if a man is not filled with His spirit the man cannot understand the things of God written in His Word

 

[keras]

The world situation of population growth, lack of resources and human mismanagement, coupled with increasing natural disasters, certainly point to the 'birth pangs of the coming age'. That age will be the 1000 year reign of Jesus. Revelation 20:1-7
As we know from the 7000 year Plan of God, this new age will commence exactly 2000 years after Jesus first Advent. God has made it impossible for us to be sure of the dates that Jesus was born, was baptized and died. I believe, from my intensive studies, that the pivotal point is Jesus' baptism, when the holy Spirit came down on Him. And we have reasonably sure dates for that event: Luke 3:1-2....the 15th year of Tiberius.... which was 29/30AD. [Some dispute this, saying Tiberius co-reigned with Augustus for 3 years, making the date 26/27 AD]
So maybe Jesus will Return in 2026/7, or more likely; 2030. Whichever, there ain't much time left to mess around!

The next prophesied event is the Sixth Seal, a worldwide disaster, that will come upon everyone in the world. Luke 21:34-35, Revelation 6:15, and is also the fulfilment of Psalms 83:1-18 and many other prophesies describing a devastation by fire of the Middle East region, with worldwide repercussions.
This dramatic change will allow the establishment of a One World Govt, led by 10 Governors. But all of the Lord's people, who keep their faith in God and who called out to Jesus during this forthcoming terrible Day, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, will be motivated to travel to and live in the regenerated holy Land. Psalms 60:1-5, Isaiah 49:8-13, Jeremiah 23:3-4 plus.....

Much more is prophesied, but at the end, it will be all of the Lord's righteous people who will greet Him at the Return.

 

[stephen583]

You are probably correct.
So are you aware of the next action the Lord will take in His creation?

Right now everything has gone quiet. I'm not surprised by that either. It fits the biblical narrative of these End Time events occurring similar to "birth pains" as described in Jeremiah and 1 Thessalonians. The next series of events will be sustained even longer and will be even more pronounced than those we've seen already.

What will the next act be ? All of it.. Every Bible Prophecy concerning the End Time is moving towards a final consummation, when all the Word of God will be fulfilled. From here on out, there won't be any break, except these very short periods of relative quiet between contractions. As the saying goes, "We are in it now".

 

[keras]

Right now everything has gone quiet. I'm not surprised by that either

Are we in that time when they are saying: All is peaceful, all secure? 1 Thessalonians 5:3
Maybe, but I doubt it. The pseudo-deal with Iran didn't qualify.

What will the next act be ? All of it.. Every Bible Prophecy concerning the End Time is moving towards a final consummation, when all the Word of God will be fulfilled. From here on out, there won't be any break, except these very short periods of relative quiet between contractions. We are in it now.

Actually, prophecy says there will be several period's of peace for a few years, One, after the Sixth Seal disaster, as the nations will have lost their military power, Hosea 2:18, Psalms 46:9 Another for the first 3.5 years of the 7 year treaty made between the leader of the OWG and the new nation of Beulah.
We are not in it yet, the Lord is still restraining Himself, Isaiah 42:14, but the Lord will arise and storm with rage....Isaiah 28:21, Isaiah 33:10-12 Wait for the Day! Zephaniah 3:8

 

[Psalm3704]

It's strange how popular this position seems to have become. The Tribulation and the Wrath are not the same thing. They are completely separate spiritual concepts. Tribulation/persecution is something that God allows all his followers to experience; it's just part of learning to become spiritually mature and to overcome.

Wrath is specifically directed at God's enemies and is not meant to teach. By the time wrath comes it's too late, or as the Angel sounding the 7th trumpet says, "let there be time no longer". It's like he's saying, "time's up; there is no further chance for repentance. Jesus has taken his people up for the marriage supper of the lamb and now the REALLY violent stuff is about to be poured out on a disobedient and spiritually desolate world below.

If the Wrath were happening at the same time as the Tribulation then how is it decided who gets the trumpets (i.e. tribulation) and who gets the bowls (i.e. the wrath)? According to pre-trib there are not more Christians/saints left so how is the remaining population of unbelievers divided up between the two (i.e. who gets the trib and who gets the wrath)?



I really don't understand how you work out your timeline. John doesn't mention anything about the rapture in Revelation 19 because it's already taken place. The church is there, with Jesus and the chapter is described from a Heavenly perspective. When they leave with Jesus on his white horse, they are going down to the battle of Armageddon, which is the last bowl of wrath (i.e. number 7).

If they are going down for the last bowl, then that necessitates that while they were up there partying, the previous bowls (1-6) must have been poured out, unless you're suggesting that the tribulation saints are gathered up by Jesus after the 6th bowl of wrath? Or, are you suggesting that the bowls will not be poured out in order from 1-7, in which case one wonders why God would bother to number them Or, are you suggesting there will be more than one marriage supper of the lamb so that the tribulation saints can have their little slice of cake, too? Or, are you suggesting that the tribulation saints will not partake of the marriage supper of the lamb? Please elaborate.

No, it makes more sense that the church goes through the Great Tribulation, out of which comes a great multitude no one could count. These are people who responded to God's discipline and chose to repent as a result. At the end of that period of Great Tribulation they are "raptured" (i.e. at the sound of a trumpet, just as Jesus and Paul describe, with Paul in particular describing it as the "last" trumpet).

You'll find your reply on this thread. Post #39.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-days-of-noah-and-lot.7964105/page-2









.

 

[stephen583]

What will the next act be ?

When making a biblical forecast, context is everything. You have to take into account the entire picture. There is a reason why there are three sixes (666, The Unholy Trinity) in Satan's plan for the destruction of mankind, (Revelation 13:18). These three individual components are acting in unison, directing and fueling one another, much in the same way a low pressure system is affected by an existing high pressure system above it, and upper wind steering currents in its' path. You can't make an "accurate" forecast, if you are only taking into account the low pressure system on its' own.

So the idea there is one singular act, or event coming next, is inherently an error. Instead, what I look at is what likely event(s) [plural] will increase the "magnitude" of the "convergence" of the beast system (666). I try to answer the question, "How can things possibly get any worse than they already are" ? 99 percent of the time, my forecasts are pretty accurate.

Here's what I see happening in the near future.

(1). The deterioration in U.S./China relations will deepen over the ongoing North Korean nuclear situation and the South China Sea dispute. The move away from the rule of international law will be further undermined in the coming months, as the U.S. and China move closer to resolving their disputes through armed confrontation, rather than using negotiations and economic sanctions. This will escalate into a global problem, with implications reaching far beyond the dispute between China and the USA.

(2). The deal Russia has proposed to buy into the Leviathan Natural Gas Pipeline Project at a cost of 10 billion dollars, also making Russia responsible for the security of the pipeline, will be flatly rejected by Israel. Thus leaving Vladimir Putin with no other option, except to derail the project and cut Israel off from any access to the Eastern Mediterranean. That's when Hezbollah in Syria and Lebanon will get the green light from Moscow to start launching missiles Russia has supplied them with at the port city of Haifa and other Israeli cities.

(3). The Interfaith convocation in Jerusalem held in September will have a greater impact than any simple declaration of a "One World Religion" from the Vatican, (although we can probably anticipate a post-convocation ecumenical speech from the Pope to this effect). The real impact is political, and is going to lead to a renewed push by the Vatican and the Christian World to once and for all resolve a final disposition of Jerusalem and a sharing of the city and the Temple Mount by the three Abrahamic Faiths. This will also provide Putin with a moral "casus belli" to attack Israel as the protector of (Christianity?) and a (Peacemaker ?).

Are you beginning to see the bigger picture and the convergence of events that are going to lead to an Apocalyptic War in the Middle East and the rest of the world ? I hope you can, because it's the "perfect storm", and it's going to happen very soon.