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iamlamad

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Wrong Lamad, the first Seal horseman is told to ride forth to conquer....the second was told to take away peace from the earth....the third has to do with worldwide economic problems.....the fourth has the power to kill a quarter of the earth.
In no way are these 4 restricted to only 1/4 of the earth. Proved by Zechariah 1:8-11, Zechariah 6:1-8....sent out to range over the whole earth.


You are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with God. Is that wise?

Rev, 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


Who is THEM?
To kill with the sword: who was given a great sword? The RED HORSE
to kill with hunger: Who brings hunger and famine? Of course the BLACK HORSE
to kill with Death: who was named or titled "DEATH?" Of course the PALE HORSE

power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth.... This is not difficult! they were LIMITED in where they use their power. It was limited to 1/4 of the earth. We can be sure that 1/4 was centered on Jerusalem where the Gospel began.

The first seal horseman RIDES ALONE. These three ride together. The first horse, white in color is to represent the CHURCH sent forth to take the Gospel to the world. The next three are are Satan's attempt to stop the church and the gospel.

Re who are the 144,000; As all the records of tribal lineage were burned in 70 AD, only God knows who belongs to which tribe. Amos 9:9 But as we know, true Israelites are now people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Ephesians 2:11-18 So when all the true Christian believers are gathered in the holy Land, Revelation 7:9, the Lord will designate everyone to one of the 12 tribes, according to their personal characteristics. There are lists of these tribal differences, gleaned from how they were in ancient times.
The Lord will stand on Mount Zion, Revelation 14:1, and select 12,000 young people from each tribe and send them out in pairs, Luke 10:1-10, to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19

This is perfectly correct and Biblical. Only those with the false rapture agenda oppose it.

The part about Christians gathered in Israel is MYTH. The part of the CHURCH that is ready will be caught up with Jesus and taken to heaven. This is the TRUE rapture agenda.
 
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iamlamad

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The Lord will reduce His restraint against Satan to allow for his man of lawlessness

This action has nothing to do with His pre-tribulation call for His true ecclesia

2 Thessalonians
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Lexicon :: Strong's G646 - apostasia
ἀποστασία
Transliteration
apostasia
Pronunciation
ä-po-stä-sē'-ä ἀποστάσιον(G647)
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: to forsake (with G575) (1x), falling away (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake

2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


However, this scripture does tell of the gathering [His call]

2 Thessalonians
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

Sorry but a "falling away" does not equate to "taken out of the way." Paul tells us the one restraining will be taken out of the way.

Since the man of sin IS REVEALED in the second part of verse 3, than the meaning of apostasisa - whatever Paul meant, MUST BE the one "taken out of the way." The theme of this passage is the gathering. If we look at apostasia as THE (significant) DEPARTING, talking out of the way, then we have fulfilled Paul's theme of the gathering.
 
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Psalm3704

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Re who are the 144,000; As all the records of tribal lineage were burned in 70 AD, only God knows who belongs to which tribe. Amos 9:9 But as we know, true Israelites are now people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Ephesians 2:11-18 So when all the true Christian believers are gathered in the holy Land, Revelation 7:9, the Lord will designate everyone to one of the 12 tribes, according to their personal characteristics. There are lists of these tribal differences, gleaned from how they were in ancient times.
The Lord will stand on Mount Zion, Revelation 14:1, and select 12,000 young people from each tribe and send them out in pairs, Luke 10:1-10, to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19

So Keras, how are 144,000 guys suppose to repopulate the earth in the millennium without females if there's no rapture and the only ones living with Christ will be a small number of men?











.
 
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keras

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You are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with God. Is that wise?
God's Word says the 4 horsemen range over all the earth. Zechariah 6:7
In no way is the first horse the Church. Why does he hold a bow?
The part about Christians gathered in Israel is MYTH. The part of the CHURCH that is ready will be caught up with Jesus and taken to heaven. This is the TRUE rapture agenda.
[Staff edit]
Please inform us who and where you think the holy people are in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, before the Great Trib.
So Keras, how are 144,000 guys suppose to repopulate the earth in the millennium without females if there's no rapture and the only ones living with Christ will be a small number of men?
They are selected from out of the 'vast multitude' of people of Christians from every nation and language, by then gathered into all of the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal devastation has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East. Jeremiah 10:18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:18
 
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keras

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Just wait another 18 months and I don't think anyone in this forum is going to be arguing the Apocalypse hasn't begun yet.
You are probably correct.
So are you aware of the next action the Lord will take in His creation?
 
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Psalm3704

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They are selected from out of the 'vast multitude' of people of Christians from every nation and language, by then gathered into all of the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal devastation has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East. Jeremiah 10:18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:18

Oh I gotcha. Their sex is not the problem, it's their ethnicity. So the 144,000 men of many different background can repopulate the earth.







.
 
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keras

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Oh I gotcha. Their sex is not the problem, it's their ethnicity. So the 144,000 men of many different background can repopulate the earth.
I suppose you think Revelation 7:9 is totally separate from Revelation 7:1-8? It isn't and only your preconceived beliefs make you think that. Ezekiel 1:1 and Acts 7:56, prove that the Throne of God can be seen from the earth, if God allows it.

Where do you get the idea that the earth will be depopulated?
In the last days, all of God's people, true Christians, will live in the holy Land. Psalms 69:36, Jeremiah 23:3-4, Isaiah 57:13b The rest of the nations will establish a One World Govt.
 
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Psalm3704

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I suppose you think Revelation 7:9 is totally divorced from Revelation 7:1-8?

No such thing as a divorce between two men found in the bible. You're treading in unbiblical nonsense. No way can 144,000 men alone repopulate the earth.

Where do you get the idea that the earth will be depopulated?
In the last days, all of God's people, true Christians, will live in the holy Land. Psalms 69:36, Jeremiah 23:3-4, Isaiah 57:13b The rest of the nations will establish a One World Govt.


Isaiah 24:6 English Standard Version
Therefore a curse devours the earth, and its inhabitants suffer for their guilt; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are scorched, and few men are left.














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keras

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Therefore a curse devours the earth, and its inhabitants suffer for their guilt; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are scorched, and few men are left.
Isaiah 24:6 That is why a curse consumes the earth and its inhabitants suffer punishment by fire and only a few are left. REB
Get a better translation and you might not come to such silly conclusions.
I have changed the word 'divorced' to 'separate' in # 335, so to clarify another of your mistaken conclusions.
 
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No such thing as a divorce between two men found in the bible. You're treading in unbiblical nonsense. No way can 144,000 men alone repopulate the earth.

I'm not sure that I've accurately followed the back and forth between you and Keras on this issue, but the 144k is described in such a way that provides for a lot of interpretation.

I think your reference to the thing about the 144k not being able to repopulate the earth is based on the idea that they are all men, and that this conclusion is based on the description that they were not defiled with women (because they are virgins).

However, as is usual with spiritual issues, there is often more happening below the surface. I'm thinking about Jesus' comment to the pharisees that if they destroy this temple Jesus would rebuild it in three days. Anyone looking on could reasonably conclude that Jesus was, indeed, referring to the physical temple since they were at the temple when he said it. He said "this" temple. Did he gesture to his body when he said it? Did he give any hint or indication that he was not referring to the physical temple? It doesn't seem that way. It comes across as though he was deliberately leaving plenty of room for the pharisees to misunderstand, which is similar to the explanation Jesus gave for using parables, in that didn't want to make the issues perfectly clear to people who weren't prepared to hear it anyway. It seems it is a requirement of sincerity that we look deeper than what is said on the surface and that we are responsible for what we choose, or choose not to see.

Something similar happens with prophecy. There is almost always more happening behind the words. So, when part of the description of the 144k mentions physical traits like sex and virginity, it makes me think, "But, spirituality based on physical traits like sexual orientation and sexual activity are inconsistent with what Jesus said about the Kingdom of Heaven being within us".

I believe the reference to "not being defiled with women" is, spiritually, a reference to not giving into an effeminate spirit, where the emotions control logic and reason. Instead, logic and reason regulate the emotions. I believe this expresses itself practically when people say stuff like, "How could a loving God do this or that". What they are referring to is a kind of immature, emotional love which makes no demands or sacrifices, whereas real love, the kind of love that God has, can be quite hard and even ruthless at times. An example of this would be God allowing Jesus to go through so much suffering and separation from himself, for us, or asking Abraham to kill his only son as a show of loyalty. It would be UNloving for God not to teach us that he comes first, even if those lessons are difficult to bear and/or come near to crushing us with their intensity.

When the angels are pouring out their vials of wrath, one of them says, "Holy and true are thy judgments". When I first read this I was surprised that the angel would make such a comment amidst so much suffering; isn't it enough that they're pouring out the judgments? Do they really need to give commentary on how righteous God is for dishing out punishments? I can imagine a brother or sister saying, "you're so right to do this, dad" as their father spanks a sibling. And yet, I believe that is the kind of strong, rational faith the 144k will have, that they will not be swayed or confused by all the emotional pity and manipulation of the hard times which will come upon the earth. Instead they will cite the tribulation as a Holy expression of God's love for the world, even if/when they are hated for doing so.

I believe the 144k will also include women, too, in the same way that references like, "except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of Heaven" also includes women, even though he specifically says, "man". For me, the single most important part of the description of the 144k is that they "follow the lamb where ever he goes". These people are extremely, fiercely loyal to Jesus, and I believe the reason why they receive special protection during the tribulation (at least for parts of it) is because they've already learned to discipline themselves (at least in some areas) in a way in which the rest of the world has not and therefore the tribulation (which is always designed to teach/correct) is less applicable to them in some ways.
 
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No such thing as a divorce between two men found in the bible. You're treading in unbiblical nonsense. No way can 144,000 men alone repopulate the earth.

Oh sorry, I think I didn't deal with the repopulation issue. The 144k will be resurrected and/or given immortal bodies at the return of Jesus, which means the issue of repopulating won't be applicable to them. I believe there will be mortal people still alive on the earth after the battle of Armageddon (and all the previous vials). It is these remaining people who will start to repopulate the earth, and these people over which we will rule for 1000 years.
 
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Psalm3704

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Oh sorry, I think I didn't deal with the repopulation issue. The 144k will be resurrected and/or given immortal bodies at the return of Jesus, which means the issue of repopulating won't be applicable to them.

Why would you be sorry? You didn't post one single verse to support your belief. It's just a matter of opinion..... [staff edit]

I believe there will be mortal people still alive on the earth after the battle of Armageddon (and all the previous vials). It is these remaining people who will start to repopulate the earth, and these people over which we will rule for 1000 years.

You can't rule or reign with Christ during the millennium without given authority to do so. The authority is granted at the Bema Seat, which is in heaven. Try getting to heaven first. Pretty much impossible to do for post-tribbers when you have to do a U-turn in mid air.

And yes, it is just your belief!







.
 
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Psalm3704

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Where do you get the idea that the earth will be depopulated?

Isaiah 24:6 That is why a curse consumes the earth and its inhabitants suffer punishment by fire and only a few are left. REB
Get a better translation and you might not come to silly conclusions.
I have changed the word 'divorced' to 'separate' in # 335, so to clarify another of your mistaken conclusions.

Does the translation make any difference Keras? They all indicate a small number of people left on earth in Isaiah 24:6.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/isaiah/24-6-compare.html

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oh I get it! You want the post-tribber's translation. The one that said elects will be rapture from heaven in Matthew 24:31.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have changed the word 'divorced' to 'separate' in # 335, so to clarify another of your mistaken conclusions.

Divorced or separated, it still doesn't change a homosexual relationship involving two men.














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Endtime Survivors

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You didn't post one single verse to support your belief. It's just a matter of opinion.....[staff edit]

Of course, I DID reference the Bible in plenty of places, but because I didn't put a book title and number next to the references you somehow don't see them as being relevant. In my experience the people who cannot discuss truth without a number next to the truth are often the most stubborn.

Also, putting a Bible verse next to your comment doesn't automatically change your comment from opinion to fact. It used to be that people used the Bible to justify slavery in the U.S. Despite using the Bible, they still argued opinions.

[staff edit]

You can't rule or reign with Christ during the millennium without given authority to do so. The authority is granted at the Bema Seat, which is in heaven. Try getting to heaven first. Pretty much impossible to do for post-tribbers when you have to do a U-turn in mid air.

I think you have a misunderstanding about the post trib vision as compared to what I suggested about the saints ruling the earth. The great tribulation. Rapture. Wrath, the end of which Jesus returns, with the bride of Christ who were raptured at the end of the Trib, for the battle of Armageddon ( the last bowl of wrath), after which the saints will rule over the remaining mortals who suvived all the disasters around the world, for a 1000 years.

You're thing about getting to heaven first etc doesn't make sense in the context of this time line. Would you mind clarifying based on the information I've clarified here?
 
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Psalm3704

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Of course, I DID reference the Bible in plenty of places, but because I didn't put a book title and number next to the references you somehow don't see them as being relevant.

You mean like these comments you posted below? All you did was just post your own opinions of what you "think" the bible means. What you think it means and what the bible teaches are two different things and clearly not the same.


I believe the 144k will also include women, too, in the same way that references like, "except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of Heaven" also includes women, even though he specifically says, "man". For me, the single most important part of the description of the 144k is that they "follow the lamb where ever he goes".

I believe the 144k will also include women, too, in the same way that references like, "except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of Heaven" also includes women, even though he specifically says, "man". For me, the single most important part of the description of the 144k is that they "follow the lamb where ever he goes".

I believe the reason why they receive special protection during the tribulation (at least for parts of it) is because they've already learned to discipline themselves (at least in some areas) in a way in which the rest of the world has not and therefore the tribulation (which is always designed to teach/correct) is less applicable to them in some ways.

I believe the reason why they receive special protection during the tribulation (at least for parts of it) is because they've already learned to discipline themselves (at least in some areas) in a way in which the rest of the world has not and therefore the tribulation (which is always designed to teach/correct) is less applicable to them in some ways.

And yet, I believe that is the kind of strong, rational faith the 144k will have, that they will not be swayed or confused by all the emotional pity and manipulation of the hard times which will come upon the earth. Instead they will cite the tribulation as a Holy expression of God's love for the world, even if/when they are hated for doing so.

And yet, I believe that is the kind of strong, rational faith the 144k will have, that they will not be swayed or confused by all the emotional pity and manipulation of the hard times which will come upon the earth. Instead they will cite the tribulation as a Holy expression of God's love for the world, even if/when they are hated for doing so.

I believe the reference to "not being defiled with women" is, spiritually, a reference to not giving into an effeminate spirit, where the emotions control logic and reason. Instead, logic and reason regulate the emotions. I believe this expresses itself practically when people say stuff like, "How could a loving God do this or that".

I believe the reference to "not being defiled with women" is, spiritually, a reference to not giving into an effeminate spirit, where the emotions control logic and reason. Instead, logic and reason regulate the emotions. I believe this expresses itself practically when people say stuff like, "How could a loving God do this or that".

I think your reference to the thing about the 144k not being able to repopulate the earth is based on the idea that they are all men, and that this conclusion is based on the description that they were not defiled with women (because they are virgins).

However, as is usual with spiritual issues, there is often more happening below the surface. I'm thinking about Jesus' comment to the pharisees that if they destroy this temple Jesus would rebuild it in three days.


I think your reference to the thing about the 144k not being able to repopulate the earth is based on the idea that they are all men, and that this conclusion is based on the description that they were not defiled with women (because they are virgins).

However, as is usual with spiritual issues, there is often more happening below the surface. I'm thinking about Jesus' comment to the pharisees that if they destroy this temple Jesus would rebuild it in three days.

Guess what! These are not bible references!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I'm not sure that I've accurately followed the back and forth between you and Keras on this issue, but the 144k is described in such a way that provides for a lot of interpretation.

I think your reference to the thing about the 144k not being able to repopulate the earth is based on the idea that they are all men, and that this conclusion is based on the description that they were not defiled with women (because they are virgins).

Yeah, you were able to draw numerous conclusions above based on one scripture that consist of only 3 sentences and concluded that everything you believed is backed by scripture.

Revelation 14:4 (KJV) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

In my experience the people who cannot discuss truth without a number next to the truth are often the most stubborn.

Of course. If it's biblical, you shouldn't have a problem posting the verse.

[staff edit]








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.






 
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Psalm3704

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I think you have a misunderstanding about the post trib vision as compared to what I suggested about the saints ruling the earth. The great tribulation. Rapture. Wrath, the end of which Jesus returns, with the bride of Christ who were raptured at the end of the Trib, for the battle of Armageddon ( the last bowl of wrath), after which the saints will rule over the remaining mortals who suvived all the disasters around the world, for a 1000 years.

[Staff edit] You along with many post-tribbers don't know when Christ leaves heaven and descend upon the earth. If you did knew, you would no longer be post-trib.

Now let's go to Revelation 19. This is the most elaborate and explicit documentation of Jesus' coming to earth in all the bible and yet nowhere did John mentioned Christ rapturing the church when He leaves heaven and descends upon Armageddon.

~From Revelation 19:1-6, the great multitude is seen in heaven.
~From Revelation 19:7-9, the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven.
~From Revelation 19:11-16, Christ descends from heaven and heads to Armageddon. No rapture mentioned anywhere during His coming.
~From Revelation 19:17-21, the a/c and his army defeated. Still no sign of the church being rapture.

Revelation 19 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” 3 Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!” 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!” 5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!” 6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!

7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.” 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.




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Was John complacent? Did John forget to mentioned one of the most important event in prophecy involving the rapture of the church? No, he did not. John mentioned the great multitude in heaven from Revelation 19:1-10. There's no need for a post-tribulation rapture because the church is already in heaven.








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keras

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Thanks Endtime Survivor, for your reasoned and well written posts.

Was John complacent? Did John forget to mentioned one of the most important event in prophecy involving the rapture of the church? No, he did not. John mentioned the great multitude in heaven from Revelation 19:1-10. There's no need for a post-tribulation rapture because the church is already in heaven.
The gathering of the Lord's people at the Return of Jesus is explicitly stated in Matthew 24:31. Paralleled by 1 Thessalonians 4:17, when His people; those who refused the mark of the beast, those who endured the Great tribulation and those who were kept in a place of safety for those 1260 days. Revelation 12:14
I will admit that this gathering may take place 30 days before Armageddon, Revelation 19:6-9, for the Lord's people to partake of the Wedding supper of the Lamb, in the clouds or on earth. [easier for the caterers!]
I do not see anywhere that people go to stay in heaven, there is simply no point in that idea.
 
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