Birth Control

[MrsJoy]

On the other side of the coin, here are some benifits from not using contraception:
1.) My wife is not forced to take a pill that will increase her chances of heart problem, cause decreased libido, and possibly murder our children in the womb, should it not prevent conception.

not all bc does any or all of those things.
and the idea that all pc pills cause abortions is an IDEA, a Theory, NOT a fact.

3.) She will not make the mistake of putting off children so long that expensive infertility treatment will be required.

so, everyone who uses bc needs infertility treatments??
how much science backs up this connection in most cases??
and this is also assuming that many are putting off having children to beyond the "normal" child bearing years.
that is QUITE a leap.

4.) Unplanned pregnancies are expected and considered a blessing, not a curse that will leave us scrambling in order to deal with a momentary disruption to a two income lifestyle.

MANY who use bc fall into this catagory as well.
IMAGINE that.

 

[MrsJoy]

also: "God will not give more than you can handle."
well, in that case, dh does not need to work!
what a blessed relief!
but, God will take care of us!!
even though we arn't doing our part, God will do His!!

 

[MrsJoy]

The only reason that we are not facing the problems that many European nations are facing is our high rates of immigration, higher birthrates among certain hispanic and rural populations, and a substandard social welfare system for a first world country.
.

do you have solid facts to back up these opinions?

 

[MrsJoy]

Its a few pages back now, but I did show it. This is something found in both Scripture and Tradition. It has always been a part of Christian morality, and it has only been in recent times that some sects have chosen to change their minds on the subject. Furthermore, I have not been provided with any information that shows that this change was made for any reason other than individual convenience and selfish desire.

you did???
interesting...
i've read through this whole thread thus far and there is NOTHING of the sort.
just because something is a part of traditional beliefs does NOT Make it God's Word.
The pharissees followed many traditions created by men, but this did not make those traditions right or in line with God's Word.
you choose to see the reasoning as selfish.
many people use it for many different reasons.
to assume such is condemning and wrong.

 

[MrsJoy]

I'm not saying that people with kids can't minister to the community. Just that there may be unique and different oportunities for childfree couples.

or perhaps the wife wants to be more directly involved.
such is NOT an option for one with 6,8, 10 or more children.
it's just FACTS.
i love my mom to death, but she has no chance for such things.
and who is a man to say that one is "called" to be nothing but a wife and mom. some are, and that is wonderful!
some are not and they are still just as much in God's Will as they follow and obey Him.

 

[MrsJoy]

who says I can't support them? Are you dictating to me that I am not able to provide for my children? Yes, I may have a dozen kids and I even have a greater chance of having another set of twins, but each one of our children will be a welcome even if we were not wanting anymore. My husband and I have figured out that we get pregnant every 2 years in January(except for my middle daughter who was concieved two weeks after I had a miscarriage and we consider her a true miracle) so now we know to avoid any contact with each other during that period. There are ways around it and celibacy does work

i have a great problem with the idea of celibacy...
1 cor 7 directly forbids such...the only reason given is for a time for prayer and fasting...

 

[MrsJoy]

People who use birth control have been labeled that much and worse in this thread.

I'de say

 

[MrsJoy]

So. No response on whether I'm sinning by taking birth control for hormonal reasons. Considering that even on the pill I still have a horrible time every month, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to ever go off it even when I marry, except for periods where my husband and I are trying to conceive.

What would you who are anti-BC have me do? Suffer every month, taking off work and loading up on ibuprofin to take the edge off the pain? They let me go an hour early today at work because I forgot my bottle of ibuprofin and kept having to stop and grimace while having a bad cramp, and if not for the pill it'd have been so bad I wouldn't have made it into work at all. My periods are seriously that bad. I don't know how many of you other women have dealt with this, but it's really awful and the birth control pill has been a huge blessing for me.

i'de say,
God does not forbid such a thing.
don't let men condemn you.
and even if they do, who cares?

 

[MrsJoy]

People who devote their life to full time Christian service are selfish but people who pop horse urine pills, stick pieces of plastic in their uterus to abort their children on a monthly basis or have themselves surgically sterilized like a common house pet so they don't have to face the responsibility and expense of bringing a precious soul into the world aren't? What a backwards view.

you are still assuming that those who use bc do so to avoid responsibility and expenses.
now THAT is a backwards way of thinking.
condemn and judge without knowledge.
NOWHERE do I see such backed up in scripture.

 

[MrsJoy]

at some point it really does need to be pointed out: every family is different and wants different things, so why try and fit us all into the same box? You don't want to have a bunch of kids? Use BC. You want kids every where? Have fun. Seriously there are no hard and fast rules that covers every family.
tulc(just a thought)

and a very good one indeed.

I just have a serious problem with adding to God's Word and condemning our brothers and sisters for not having the same convictions.

 

[MrsJoy]

Isn't it funny how people always act like you are going to have a billion kids if you don't use BC?

I know people who didn't use it and never had more than 4 or 5. My aunt and uncle never used it and all they have is one set of twins.

Most women, it seems, tend to naturally space them out by at least 2 years, if they breast feed. And that rate drops as they get older, esp. past 35.

basic biology.
and using my eyes (i've been around a LOT Of families who do not use).
and breast feading does NOT garentee not getting pregnant.
it depends on the woman.

 

[MrsJoy]

I explained it when I explained the purposes of sex. Scriptural proofs are found in commandments to multiply, the extoling of the virtue and blessing that children are, and the punishment exacted on Onan.

the command to multiply was given after the flood because there were hardly any people.
hmmm...
it was not a universal command.
if onan was a good example of anything beyond disobedience, why is it the only example??

The proof in Tradition is found in the writings of the Church Fathers (of whom none spoke in favor contraception) and the Church canons. Even the Jews considered the use of contraception to be sinfull. To this day Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews teach against BC.

"traditon" "our fathers" not God's Word.
I choose to live by God's Word, not man-made rules.

As in the last half century, starting with the Anglicans, then spreading among much of the rest of Protestantism. Though the Traditional morality on contraception is making a small resurgence among the more orthodox Mainliners and with the Full Quiver movement among the Evangelicals.

"tradition" "tradition"
how about some scripture that actually addresses this?

Indeed, a couple must decide what to do for themselves. They must choose to do right or to do wrong. Morality is not a question of choice.

you contridict yourself here.
you say it is up to the couple and then turn around and condemn them!

 

[MrsJoy]

What you don't get is this a bunch of bull that is baseless in its assertion.

1.) Most women do not ovulate when they breast feed.

incorrect.
SOME don't.
MANY do.

2.) On average, sex during a health woman's fertile period will only result in pregnancy 20% of the time.

right.
what do you base this on?
and if such is the case why do so many families who do not use bc have 8 or more children?? it is the norm, not the exception.

3.) As a woman ages, the likelyhood drops, and the chance of miscarraige increases.

this will not occur in many woman who have been pregnant (not using bc) all their child bearing years until well into their fourties or beyond.

Furthermore, it is not exceedingly hard to raise a large family. You aren't going to have a $50k car, a plasma tv and cellphones for all the kids, but they aren't going to starve and go naked either.

lol
it sure is NOT easy to raise a large family.
i came from one.
and it's not just about not having extravagance-we never did.
it's about basic needs.
and the mom needing some rest. try to explain it away all you want, it's still there.

 

[Lumen]

No no and no bc is not the answer. You don't get pregnant everytime, I've been married six years and only have four kids and two of them are twins.

Yes but how regularly have you had sexual relations with your husband?

If it's regular, well then you are probably not a very fertile person.

 

[MrsJoy]

Cite?


Raising 8 children isn't terribly more expensive than raising 2. Or so I have been told. Many of the costs stemming from children are non-reoccuring, if well mannaged.

oh MAN
this is LAUGHABLE.
and I come from a family with 8 children.
more mouths to feed-yes their (I'm married now and don't live with them) grocery bill is MUCH higher than when there were two of us.
most of us wear glasses.
all need trips to the dentist.
more trips to the hospitals (more accidents etc-just a fact with kids, esp rowdy boys!)
larger house-more rent (or morgage if you own your home);
more heat;
more water (for both showers and clothes).

it DOES add and multiplywith each one.

 

[MrsJoy]

Ah yes, the propaganda without facts to back it up.

i find it interesting that you say such when you have not cited anything that is backed up with proven facts, just your own personal experience.

 

[MrsJoy]

Sorry, it's just that when I grew up reading about missionaries like the Hudsons and such, I just considered them selfish for dragging their kids all over the world just to end up getting themselves killed.

i personally always thought it was sad and contridictory when couples left for the mission field and left their kids at home.
~our children are our personal responsibility, they are our priority before further ministry. how are you to teach them when you rise, when you lie down...when they are not there??
~they have to grow up far away from their family...and miss them. they are sacrificed for ministry.

i can't see that as being biblical.

 

[MrsJoy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumen
Is BC mentioned in the moral law? The Ten Commandments?

Yes and no, respectively.

where is it mentioned in a moral law??
and if you want to refer to onan again, you are on shaky ground.
if something was a LAW it would be stated as a LAW.
God went into GREAT detail in Levitucus primarily covering every aspect of life.
why would such a thing be neglected if it was indeed a direct command from God??
did He forget?

Quote:

Is it mentioned at all in the bible?
Yes.

error.

Quote:

You were saying?
Contraception is immoral.

in your own opinion.
it is something left to each couple.
period.
God's Word does not address it.
we are to come to God's Word to have it change us, not come to it to have it fit what we wish for it to say.
We are the clay, His Word is not.

“Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit? Where there are medicines of sterility? Where there is murder before the birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well. Do you see that from drunkenness comes fornication, from fornication adultery, from adultery murder? Indeed, it is something worse than murder and I do not know what to call it; for she does not kill what is formed but prevents its formation. What then? Do you contemn the gift of God, and fight with His laws? What is a curse, do you seek as though it were a blessing, and make the chamber of procreation a chamber for murder, and arm the woman that was given for childbearing unto slaughter?”
-St. John Chrysostom, Homily on St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans

“They exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption.”
-St.

 

[MrsJoy]

You've shown where you confuse bibilcal blessings and history with actual commands, but still nothing valid. The subject of blessings such as offspring, livestock, land, and health have already been discussed at length in this thread. So has the context of the story of Onan. If that's all you've got, well we can officially declare that there is no biblical command against contraception (but then we all kinda knew that, didn't we? ).

absolutly.
by the way, God's Word backs up God's Word.
a single verse on it's own, not backed up by anything else should be not only a cause to pause, but a major red flag.

 

[MrsJoy]

I really think a lot of it comes down (perhaps unconciously) to "keep the women pregnant, nursing, at home with the kids". That way they won't get "uppity". I know most modern men wouldn't say this so boldly, but a lot kind of believe it underneath.

i know that this will probably raise a row,
but yes, i have seen this very attitude displayed.
it is heart breaking.