Birth Control

[catlover]

The whole "responsibility" and "stewartship" arguments are particularly amusing when used in conjunction with social services, considering how they are paid for..

Can you explain your point further?

In the pre-SSA days children were your social security. You had 5+ children so that they could one day afford to support you. The problem with the system is that some people can't have children, their children die, their children are uncaring deadbeats, ect. So, Social Security (and other social benifits) played the role of the family by everyone's children to support everyone. That made it so that children are now only an indirect benifit, and because of our selfishness, people make money off the system by having fewer kids and relying on the children of other people to support them. Of course this acts like the Soviet system where eventually most people take advantage of the system and the system crashes because of it.

That is why Social Security will eventually fail, once productivity increases cannot increase fast enough to match lost population growth (and eventually population loss).

As rich as our nation is, there is no economic reason for sub-replacement level birth-rates.

Part of the problem with social security, is when social security was first implemented the life expectancy was about 50 or so and one could reap the benefits at 65.

People are living longer, which is positive as children are enjoying their grandparents more. BUT people living longer has put a stress on the system.

Perhaps this country will go back to many generations of the family living in one house/apartment. It's not such a bad thing either.

 

[catlover]

"Be fruitful and multiply" is a blessing, not a command. Otherwise, all people who are gifted with singleness and all sterile people are sinning because they don't have kids.

.

Exactly...or these "evil" elderly people who remarry after a spouse dies.

 

[Lotar]

On the other side of the coin, here are some benifits from not using contraception:
1.) My wife is not forced to take a pill that will increase her chances of heart problem, cause decreased libido, and possibly murder our children in the womb, should it not prevent conception.
2.) She gains the benifits of sensation, and the additional medical benifits which would be deprived of her should we use a condom. (Though she is alergic to latex anyways.)
3.) She will not make the mistake of putting off children so long that expensive infertility treatment will be required.
4.) Unplanned pregnancies are expected and considered a blessing, not a curse that will leave us scrambling in order to deal with a momentary disruption to a two income lifestyle.
5.) Our grandchildren will have Aunts and Uncles, and plenty of cousins to play with.

 

[Dannager]

No no and no bc is not the answer. You don't get pregnant everytime, I've been married six years and only have four kids and two of them are twins.

But if you're married for another six years, you could have another four children. And then another four in the six after that. Pretty soon you're 36 years old and have a dozen children that you can't possibly support.

 

[WalkingforHim]

The sin of contraception is like most other sins: it is convenient and self-serving. It allows people to maintain a higher devotion to self. Money, time, and other selfish desires.

This is just stupid. BC isn't even a sin, much less as horrible as you make it out to be.

Trust in God and He will not give you more than you can handle.

This is completely stupid. This is how people end up with 10 kids in a 2 bedroom trailer. This type of wilful neglect, this ignorance that God will personally come down from Heaven and stop your sperm from fertilizing an egg everytime you have sex.

Maybe God allowed us to develop BC just for that very reason, ever think of that? Of course not!

No no and no bc is not the answer. You don't get pregnant everytime, I've been married six years and only have four kids and two of them are twins.

BC is certainly the answer, as their isn't a rtational reason why it shouldn't be the answer.

God will and does provide. Rejecting the gift of children in order to obtain some arbitrary standard of living that is well above 80% of the rest of the world is hardly a good reason.

Having more kids than one can handle is just ignorance. That you defend such a position speaks the validity of your opinions.

Well, you made it clear that they were stupid for bringing those children into the world.

They are stupid. Doesn't mean the children are less deserving of life, just that the parents are idiots who shouldn't have had so many to begin with.

If you can't see the difference there, then you more than God's help alone.

 

[WalkingforHim]

1.) My wife is not forced to take a pill that will increase her chances of heart problem, cause decreased libido, and possibly murder our children in the womb, should it not prevent conception.

Condoms. Besides, some women need the pill for their own hormonal issues.

2.) She gains the benifits of sensation, and the additional medical benifits which would be deprived of her should we use a condom. (Though she is alergic to latex anyways.)

Sensation for the security of having sex without worrying about a life changing pregnancy is a good trade-off.

3.) She will not make the mistake of putting off children so long that expensive infertility treatment will be required.

Neither will I or most otherr who use BC.

4.) Unplanned pregnancies are expected and considered a blessing, not a curse that will leave us scrambling in order to deal with a momentary disruption to a two income lifestyle.

That's just a different point of view revolving around your wants and your lifestyle.

For many other, an unplanned pregnancy is a big, bad thing.

5.) Our grandchildren will have Aunts and Uncles, and plenty of cousins to play with.

I'll give you that one.

 

[tulc]

On the other side of the coin, here are some benifits from not using contraception:
1.) My wife is not forced to take a pill that will increase her chances of heart problem, cause decreased libido, and possibly murder our children in the womb, should it not prevent conception.
2.) She gains the benifits of sensation, and the additional medical benifits which would be deprived of her should we use a condom. (Though she is alergic to latex anyways.)
3.) She will not make the mistake of putting off children so long that expensive infertility treatment will be required.
4.) Unplanned pregnancies are expected and considered a blessing, not a curse that will leave us scrambling in order to deal with a momentary disruption to a two income lifestyle.
5.) Our grandchildren will have Aunts and Uncles, and plenty of cousins to play with.

You guys shouldn't use BC if you think it's wrong. You haven't however shown it's a sin for someone TO use it yet.
tulc(or did I miss that post?)

 

[Lotar]

never mind

 

[Dannager]

...says the person who believes fornication is not a sin.

Actually, I looked through the thread you're referencing for an occasion where WalkingforHim said that, and couldn't find one. Which leads me to chide you on two points:

First, don't act like that invalidates her opinion. It doesn't. In fact, her critical examination of the situation behind fornication leads me to value her opinion perhaps a bit higher than your own.

Second, refrain from putting words in others' mouths. It's rude and unsightly.

 

[WalkingforHim]

...says the person who believes fornication is not a sin.

You have a post number to back that claim up?

 

[Lotar]

Can you explain your point further?



Part of the problem with social security, is when social security was first implemented the life expectancy was about 50 or so and one could reap the benefits at 65.

People are living longer, which is positive as children are enjoying their grandparents more. BUT people living longer has put a stress on the system.

Perhaps this country will go back to many generations of the family living in one house/apartment. It's not such a bad thing either.

My point is this: Social Security and many other such programs are based on a piramid system; many supporting the few. The problem is that the popularization of contraception is producing an inverse piramid. The only reason that we are not facing the problems that many European nations are facing is our high rates of immigration, higher birthrates among certain hispanic and rural populations, and a substandard social welfare system for a first world country.
Though, even if those populations do not continue to have declining birth rates, we will begin to see our population shrink as the generation that was more interested in fornicating and doing drugs than starting families begins to die off.

 

[Lotar]

You guys shouldn't use BC if you think it's wrong. You haven't however shown it's a sin for someone TO use it yet.
tulc(or did I miss that post?)

Its a few pages back now, but I did show it. This is something found in both Scripture and Tradition. It has always been a part of Christian morality, and it has only been in recent times that some sects have chosen to change their minds on the subject. Furthermore, I have not been provided with any information that shows that this change was made for any reason other than individual convenience and selfish desire.

 

[desmalia]

On the other side of the coin, here are some benifits from not using contraception:
1.) My wife is not forced to take a pill that will increase her chances of heart problem, cause decreased libido, and possibly murder our children in the womb, should it not prevent conception.
2.) She gains the benifits of sensation, and the additional medical benifits which would be deprived of her should we use a condom. (Though she is alergic to latex anyways.)
3.) She will not make the mistake of putting off children so long that expensive infertility treatment will be required.
4.) Unplanned pregnancies are expected and considered a blessing, not a curse that will leave us scrambling in order to deal with a momentary disruption to a two income lifestyle.
5.) Our grandchildren will have Aunts and Uncles, and plenty of cousins to play with.

Cool. Those are all excellent benefits and I don't dispute any of them. None have anything to do with whether contraception is a sin or not. There are also lots of benefits to not having kids too, not the least of which being that it frees the couple up for many more ministry oportunities in the community.

 

[icedtea]

Really? I knew a couple who took their 2 daughters to Guatemala to found a church.

 

[tulc]

Its a few pages back now, but I did show it.

...really? I remember looking and I can't find it. Any idea what number it was? I do remember you saying it was wrong but proof? I'd love to see it.

This is something found in both Scripture and Tradition. It has always been a part of Christian morality,

That's is what I'm trying to find. Proof of that.

and it has only been in recent times that some sects have chosen to change their minds on the subject.

Define "recent" and "sects"?

Furthermore, I have not been provided with any information that shows that this change was made for any reason other than individual convenience and selfish desire.

...uhmm what sort of proof do you want? It seems more like something a couple would decide for themselves, but you've sort of made it sound like a conspiracy.
tulc(needs another cup of coffee!)

 

[desmalia]

Really? I knew a couple who took their 2 daughters to Guatemala to found a church.

I'm not saying that people with kids can't minister to the community. Just that there may be unique and different oportunities for childfree couples.

 

[WalkingforHim]

Really? I knew a couple who took their 2 daughters to Guatemala to found a church.

I've always thought people who bring their children and go on missionary work to be lousy, selfish people.

 

[rainbowbright]

But if you're married for another six years, you could have another four children. And then another four in the six after that. Pretty soon you're 36 years old and have a dozen children that you can't possibly support.

who says I can't support them? Are you dictating to me that I am not able to provide for my children? Yes, I may have a dozen kids and I even have a greater chance of having another set of twins, but each one of our children will be a welcome even if we were not wanting anymore. My husband and I have figured out that we get pregnant every 2 years in January(except for my middle daughter who was concieved two weeks after I had a miscarriage and we consider her a true miracle) so now we know to avoid any contact with each other during that period. There are ways around it and celibacy does work

 

[tulc]

I've always thought people who bring their children and go on missionary work to be lousy, selfish people.

Uhmmm I did that almost 30 years ago and I am still doing it even as we speak.
tulc(just thought it should be mentioned)

 

[icedtea]

I've always thought people who bring their children and go on missionary work to be lousy, selfish people.

You are quite a judge of people? You knew them personally then?