Birth Control

[SallyNow]

This is amusing:
Nearly every family in my parish is considered "large" by today's standards, I live in an area of the country where it is supposively almost impossible to raise a large family, and yet none of these families are living in poverty. Still, I guess that my experience is inapplicable. It is some fluke that people like my priest can support a wife, 8 children and an elderly mother on an average salary, without going into poverty.

Yes, it is a fluke. Just like the fact that I was friends with several pairs of twins when I was a child, and that I know several people with Asberger's, etc.

Is your experience innapplicable? No. But it is a fluke. There are millions of families out there to prove it. You know some of the exceptions.

There are much more complicated issues at work here. Yes, your priest is managing well. But I doubt you know his full financial situation, and I doubt you realize what a fluke he really is. It is probably due to hard work and good luck, but not everyone is blessed with that good luck.

There are too many families out there that live in poverty and pain and live in fear of where their next meal is going to come from to advocate everyone having a large family.

And as much as many people would like to believe that every woman has problems concieving, that just isn't so. There are many women who get pregnant at the drop of a hat. In this culture, women only breastfeed for about a year. That's not very long compared to others.

Another factor is that, yes, there are well-adjusted kids out there who came from huge families. But there are also many who don't.

There is nothing wrong with having "only" two or three children. Some people feel they can handle more when they really, really can't. It is more destructive than it is good. At least some people are honest enough to admit that they couldn't properly handle a dozen kids.

As for somehow blaming this on working women, well, I hate to break it, but women have always worked. The home used to be the centre of industry, and women helped create and support and nurish industry. Now, though, industry has moved out of the home - and with it, moving women out of the home, too. It seems like most "women belong at home" sites are filled with busywork for bored women, rather than nurishing a woman's need to work, whether it be volunteering at the local soup kitchen or being the country's top lawyer.

The reason big families no longer work is simple: big families used to be necessary because so many children died in early childhood. Yes, a woman may have given birth to twelve children, and then ended up perhaps raising only six to adulthood. And let us not forget how many children were put to work at early ages, with no education, to support families!

History isn't pretty. It's not the idealized big family. Yes, some today are able to have a wonderful huge family, but most people are not. Some are able to be world-class runners, but most aren't. Is it better to admit you won't ever make to the Olympics, but that you may make it to your local marathon, and train in reasonable manner, or better you go for broke and end up, well, broken?

And that doesn't even address the issue that birth control also helps many women live healthier, less painful lives, lives where they aren't cooped up in the house for days at a time each month in severe pain.

Contraception should not be used as an excuse for sex with everyone, all the time. But it should be used as a tool to help women, to help families, live healthy, safe, and productive lives.

 

[Lotar]

Ah yes, the propaganda without facts to back it up.

 

[WalkingforHim]

Uhmmm I did that almost 30 years ago and I am still doing it even as we speak.

Sorry, it's just that when I grew up reading about missionaries like the Hudsons and such, I just considered them selfish for dragging their kids all over the world just to end up getting themselves killed.

 

[WalkingforHim]

You are quite a judge of people? You knew them personally then?

I judge Hitler as evil because is obvious he was. Sometimes stupid is just as obvious.

 

[Lotar]

Better to be stupid than immoral.

 

[Lumen]

Better to be stupid than immoral.

Is BC mentioned in the moral law? The Ten Commandments?

No.

Is it mentioned at all in the bible?

No.

You were saying?

 

[desmalia]

Ah yes, the propaganda without facts to back it up.

That's cute coming from you.

 

[fuzzymel]

Exactly if it was so wrong then it would be in the bible BUT ITS NOT.

Maybe some people on this board could be a little less judgemental and a little more Christian. I am not going to start judging those who choose to have children and dont expect to be judged by people who do not know me. There are way too many people who have an abnormal amount of interest in others sex lives dont you think?

Please show me where in the bible it says 'do not use birth control' and this thread will end.

 

[Lotar]

Is BC mentioned in the moral law? The Ten Commandments?

Yes and no, respectively.

Is it mentioned at all in the bible?

Yes.

You were saying?

Contraception is immoral.



“Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit? Where there are medicines of sterility? Where there is murder before the birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well. Do you see that from drunkenness comes fornication, from fornication adultery, from adultery murder? Indeed, it is something worse than murder and I do not know what to call it; for she does not kill what is formed but prevents its formation. What then? Do you contemn the gift of God, and fight with His laws? What is a curse, do you seek as though it were a blessing, and make the chamber of procreation a chamber for murder, and arm the woman that was given for childbearing unto slaughter?”
-St. John Chrysostom, Homily on St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans

“They exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption.”
-St. Epiphanios

 

[desmalia]

I explained it when I explained the purposes of sex. Scriptural proofs are found in commandments to multiply, the extoling of the virtue and blessing that children are, and the punishment exacted on Onan.

You've shown where you confuse bibilcal blessings and history with actual commands, but still nothing valid. The subject of blessings such as offspring, livestock, land, and health have already been discussed at length in this thread. So has the context of the story of Onan. If that's all you've got, well we can officially declare that there is no biblical command against contraception (but then we all kinda knew that, didn't we? ).

 

[elsbeth]

I really think a lot of it comes down (perhaps unconciously) to "keep the women pregnant, nursing, at home with the kids". That way they won't get "uppity". I know most modern men wouldn't say this so boldly, but a lot kind of believe it underneath.

 

[Lotar]

Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God's plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.

Gen. 28:3 - Isaac's prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God.
Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his sperm on the ground.
Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed.
Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed.
Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death.
Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God's plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy.
Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error).
Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil.
Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful and contrary, not only to God's Revelation, but the moral and natural law.
Deut. 25:11-12 - there is punishment for potential damage to the testicles, for such damage puts new life at risk. It, of course, follows that vasectomies, which are done with willful consent, are gravely contrary to the natural law.
1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring "not your will God, but my will be done."
Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God's precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.
Hosea 9:11; Jer. 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Contraception is a curse, and married couples who use contraception are putting themselves under the same curse.
Mal. 2:14 - marriage is not a contract (which is a mere exchange of property or services). It is a covenant, which means a supernatural exchange of persons. Just as God is three in one, so are a husband and wife, who become one flesh and bring forth new life, three in one. Marital love is a reflection of the Blessed Trinity.
Mal. 2:15 - What does God desire? Godly offspring. What is contraception? A deliberate act against God's will. With contraception, a couple declares, "God may want an eternal being created with our union, but we say no." Contraception is a grave act of selfishness.
Matt. 19:5-6 - Jesus said a husband and wife shall become one. They are no longer two, but one, just as God is three persons, yet one. The expression of authentic marital love reintegrates our bodies and souls to God, and restores us to our original virginal state (perfect integration of body and soul) before God.
Matt. 19:6; Eph. 5:31 - contraception prevents God's ability to "join" together. Just as Christ's love for the Church is selfless and sacrificial, and a husband and wife reflect this union, so a husband and wife's love for each other must also be selfless and sacrificial. This means being open to new life.
Acts 5:1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira were slain because they withheld part of a gift. Fertility is a gift from God and cannot be withheld.
Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage.
1 Cor. 6:19-20 - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; thus, we must glorify God in our bodies by being open to His will.
Gal. 6:7-8 - God is not mocked for what a man sows. If to the flesh, corruption. If to the Spirit, eternal life.
Eph. 5:25 - Paul instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This love is a lie because it is self-centered, and not self-giving and life-giving.
Eph. 5:29-31; Phil. 3:2 - mutilating the flesh (e.g., surgery to prevent conception) is gravely sinful. Many Protestant churches reject this most basic moral truth.
1 Tim. 2:15 - childbearing is considered a "work" through which women may be saved by God's grace.
Deut. 22:13-21 – these verses also show that God condemns pre-marital intercourse. The living expression of God’s creative love is reserved for a sacramental marriage between one man and one woman. Rev. 9:21; 21:8; 22:15; Gal. 5:20 - these verses mention the word "sorcery." The Greek word is "pharmakeia" which includes abortifacient potions such as birth control pills. These pharmakeia are mortally sinful. Moreover, chemical contraception does not necessarily prevent conception, but may actually kill the child in the womb after conception has occurred (by preventing the baby from attaching to the uterine wall). Contraception is a lie that has deceived millions, but the Church is holding her arms open wide to welcome back her children who have strayed from the truth.

 

[WalkingforHim]

Better to be stupid than immoral.

Forntuately, people who use BC are neither.

“They exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption.”

I suppose it's misguided people like this who demonize sex to the point that all but the most labourous and dullest forms of intimacy are lustful, hedoistic displays of satanism.

Such a phobia of sex shouldn't exist is this day and age.

 

[Lotar]

Forntuately, people who use BC are neither.
.

They are both, for true stupidity is to ignore the Will of God.

I suppose it's misguided people like this who demonize sex to the point that all but the most labourous and dullest forms of intimacy are lustful, hedoistic displays of satanism.

Such a phobia of sex shouldn't exist is this day and age

Falicious arguments.

 

[WalkingforHim]

They are both, for true stupidity is to ignore the Will of God.

I think true stupditiy is more in line with taking a whole bunch of verses out of context just to beat people over the head with something they do in private.

Falicious arguments.

Completely true. People like that are responsible for people like you.

It's sad you have such a degrading and perverted views of God's gift of sexuality.

 

[Lotar]

I think true stupditiy is more in line with taking a whole bunch of verses out of context just to beat people over the head with something they do in private.

Most sins are done in private.

Completely true. People like that are responsible for people like you.

It's sad you have such a degrading and perverted views of God's gift of sexuality.

Yes, "people like that"... In other words, you assume his (and my) position on sexual issues, with no evidence to support it, and then slander him. That is called FALLICY.

 

[WalkingforHim]

Yes, "people like that"... In other words, you assume his (and my) position on sexual issues, with no evidence to support it, and then slander him. That is called FALLICY.

You've done the same to each and every person defending BC in this topic. Now do you understand what you sound like?

Most sins are done in private.

Which makes those sins none of your business.

 

[Lotar]

You've done the same to each and every person defending BC in this topic. Now do you understand what you sound like?

Really? How so? As far as I can tell, I have not assumed what anyones position is on anything.

Which makes those sins none of your business.

Who said I was making anyone else's sins my buisness? Did I ask anyone if they use contraception?

 

[desmalia]

Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God's plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.

Gen. 28:3 - Isaac's prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God.
Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his sperm on the ground.
Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed.
Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed.
Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death.
Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God's plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy.
Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error).
Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil.
Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful and contrary, not only to God's Revelation, but the moral and natural law.
Deut. 25:11-12 - there is punishment for potential damage to the testicles, for such damage puts new life at risk. It, of course, follows that vasectomies, which are done with willful consent, are gravely contrary to the natural law.
1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring "not your will God, but my will be done."
Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God's precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.
Hosea 9:11; Jer. 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Contraception is a curse, and married couples who use contraception are putting themselves under the same curse.
Mal. 2:14 - marriage is not a contract (which is a mere exchange of property or services). It is a covenant, which means a supernatural exchange of persons. Just as God is three in one, so are a husband and wife, who become one flesh and bring forth new life, three in one. Marital love is a reflection of the Blessed Trinity.
Mal. 2:15 - What does God desire? Godly offspring. What is contraception? A deliberate act against God's will. With contraception, a couple declares, "God may want an eternal being created with our union, but we say no." Contraception is a grave act of selfishness.
Matt. 19:5-6 - Jesus said a husband and wife shall become one. They are no longer two, but one, just as God is three persons, yet one. The expression of authentic marital love reintegrates our bodies and souls to God, and restores us to our original virginal state (perfect integration of body and soul) before God.
Matt. 19:6; Eph. 5:31 - contraception prevents God's ability to "join" together. Just as Christ's love for the Church is selfless and sacrificial, and a husband and wife reflect this union, so a husband and wife's love for each other must also be selfless and sacrificial. This means being open to new life.
Acts 5:1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira were slain because they withheld part of a gift. Fertility is a gift from God and cannot be withheld.
Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage.
1 Cor. 6:19-20 - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; thus, we must glorify God in our bodies by being open to His will.
Gal. 6:7-8 - God is not mocked for what a man sows. If to the flesh, corruption. If to the Spirit, eternal life.
Eph. 5:25 - Paul instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This love is a lie because it is self-centered, and not self-giving and life-giving.
Eph. 5:29-31; Phil. 3:2 - mutilating the flesh (e.g., surgery to prevent conception) is gravely sinful. Many Protestant churches reject this most basic moral truth.
1 Tim. 2:15 - childbearing is considered a "work" through which women may be saved by God's grace.
Deut. 22:13-21 – these verses also show that God condemns pre-marital intercourse. The living expression of God’s creative love is reserved for a sacramental marriage between one man and one woman. Rev. 9:21; 21:8; 22:15; Gal. 5:20 - these verses mention the word "sorcery." The Greek word is "pharmakeia" which includes abortifacient potions such as birth control pills. These pharmakeia are mortally sinful. Moreover, chemical contraception does not necessarily prevent conception, but may actually kill the child in the womb after conception has occurred (by preventing the baby from attaching to the uterine wall). Contraception is a lie that has deceived millions, but the Church is holding her arms open wide to welcome back her children who have strayed from the truth.

OY, what a giant mess of missing context! Well I would like to respond to each of these properly, but that will take some time (due to the sheer volume of Scriptural misquoting and twisting there!). I shall return...

 

[Joanus]

Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God's plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.

Gen. 28:3 - Isaac's prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God.
Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his sperm on the ground.
Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed.
Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed.
Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death.
Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God's plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy.
Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error).
Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil.
Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful and contrary, not only to God's Revelation, but the moral and natural law.
Deut. 25:11-12 - there is punishment for potential damage to the testicles, for such damage puts new life at risk. It, of course, follows that vasectomies, which are done with willful consent, are gravely contrary to the natural law.
1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring "not your will God, but my will be done."
Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God's precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.
Hosea 9:11; Jer. 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Contraception is a curse, and married couples who use contraception are putting themselves under the same curse.
Mal. 2:14 - marriage is not a contract (which is a mere exchange of property or services). It is a covenant, which means a supernatural exchange of persons. Just as God is three in one, so are a husband and wife, who become one flesh and bring forth new life, three in one. Marital love is a reflection of the Blessed Trinity.
Mal. 2:15 - What does God desire? Godly offspring. What is contraception? A deliberate act against God's will. With contraception, a couple declares, "God may want an eternal being created with our union, but we say no." Contraception is a grave act of selfishness.
Matt. 19:5-6 - Jesus said a husband and wife shall become one. They are no longer two, but one, just as God is three persons, yet one. The expression of authentic marital love reintegrates our bodies and souls to God, and restores us to our original virginal state (perfect integration of body and soul) before God.
Matt. 19:6; Eph. 5:31 - contraception prevents God's ability to "join" together. Just as Christ's love for the Church is selfless and sacrificial, and a husband and wife reflect this union, so a husband and wife's love for each other must also be selfless and sacrificial. This means being open to new life.
Acts 5:1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira were slain because they withheld part of a gift. Fertility is a gift from God and cannot be withheld.
Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage.
1 Cor. 6:19-20 - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; thus, we must glorify God in our bodies by being open to His will.
Gal. 6:7-8 - God is not mocked for what a man sows. If to the flesh, corruption. If to the Spirit, eternal life.
Eph. 5:25 - Paul instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This love is a lie because it is self-centered, and not self-giving and life-giving.
Eph. 5:29-31; Phil. 3:2 - mutilating the flesh (e.g., surgery to prevent conception) is gravely sinful. Many Protestant churches reject this most basic moral truth.
1 Tim. 2:15 - childbearing is considered a "work" through which women may be saved by God's grace.
Deut. 22:13-21 – these verses also show that God condemns pre-marital intercourse. The living expression of God’s creative love is reserved for a sacramental marriage between one man and one woman. Rev. 9:21; 21:8; 22:15; Gal. 5:20 - these verses mention the word "sorcery." The Greek word is "pharmakeia" which includes abortifacient potions such as birth control pills. These pharmakeia are mortally sinful. Moreover, chemical contraception does not necessarily prevent conception, but may actually kill the child in the womb after conception has occurred (by preventing the baby from attaching to the uterine wall). Contraception is a lie that has deceived millions, but the Church is holding her arms open wide to welcome back her children who have strayed from the truth.

What about barriers? Diaphragms? Condoms?
What about when your wife is too tired and too old to give you any more children?
What about when she has a prolapse?
What about when her life would be endangered by another pregnancy?
What then?