BIG ERRORS: The Bride.

Josheb

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That’s a direction that Bullinger took in applying all of Revelation from 1-22 as applying to Jews only. You really have to find the meat and throw out the bones in any form of one person’s teachings.
Which is what I've done.
Sorry but applying dispensation to her as a means of excluding all dispensation thought isn’t going to help clarify anything.
Never happened. And you're not practicing your own standards (find the meat).
We’re either in the age of grace or we’re in the age of human/divine gvmnt. I think you are trying to argue the rapture?
Go back and re-read the posts. I have been quite clear with what I have stated, summarized it several times, and endeavored to stay op-relevant.

The "bride" is the body of Christ.
Maybe. I’ll just watch the thread then.
No, not "maybe;" and posting op-relevantly would be appropriate and valued.
 
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jahel

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Which is what I've done.

Never happened. And you're not practicing your own standards (find the meat).

Go back and re-read the posts. I have been quite clear with what I have stated, summarized it several times, and endeavored to stay op-relevant.

The "bride" is the body of Christ.

No, not "maybe;" and posting op-relevantly would be appropriate and valued.
I posted my thoughts on NJ > Heart of Worship
Still don’t see why calling a denomination into question is relevant :confused:
 
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prodromos

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Hi prodromos,

God`s word NEVER says that the Body of Christ, His Body, is the `bride.` The context of the scripture in Eph. 5: 25 is the church, the Body of Christ, as Paul revealed in Eph. 1: 23.

`Husbands love your wives, just as Christ loved the Church, (the Body of Christ, Eph. 1: 23) and gave Himself for IT.` (Eph. 5: 25)

The Apostle Paul has spent 4 chapters revealing that we are the Body of Christ and what it consists of. It is the mystery not known before but revealed to the apostle Paul. In ch. 5 & 6 he then just exhorts the children, the wives and husbands in their conduct. It is not a doctrine of the bride.

regards, Marilyn.
Why don't you respond to the point of my post? The Bible says "her", not "it", and it was your contention that "her" could not be correct because 'language gender issues'.
 
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Josheb

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Still don’t see why calling a denomination into question is relevant :confused:
It was explained. Twice. I read no specific point of inquiry and I read no specified point at which I might have been unclear. Given that absent I redirect you to re-read the posts because the reason for citing and inquiring about dispensationalism was explained.

And for the record: dispensationalism is not a denomination. Many denoms are dispensational. Dispensatonalism is doctrinal; a set of doctrinal positions with its own self-asserted hermeneutical approach. If relevant to the op then that's important because it brings certain pre-suppositions into the rendering of the "bride" of Christ.
 
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jahel

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It was explained. Twice. I read no specific point of inquiry and I read no specified point at which I might have been unclear. Given that absent I redirect you to re-read the posts because the reason for citing and inquiring about dispensationalism was explained.

And for the record: dispensationalism is not a denomination. Many denoms are dispensational. Dispensatonalism is doctrinal; a set of doctrinal positions with its own self-asserted hermeneutical approach. If relevant to the op then that's important because it brings certain pre-suppositions into the rendering of the "bride" of Christ.
I thought your points to be extent up to the dispensational thang. But no matter.
 
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Marilyn C

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Why don't you respond to the point of my post? The Bible says "her", not "it", and it was your contention that "her" could not be correct because 'language gender issues'.

The Greek word is `antos` meaning, it, her, him, one, etc.

The context reveals which one. Paul is speaking of the Church, which God calls `the Body of Christ,` (Eph. 1: 23) Thus the word is `IT.`
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi Josheb,

You said -
Fundamentally, a single very plain and simple truth is at play: the Bible is not about humanity. The Bible, from beginning to end is about Jesus. He is the tree of life in Eden and He is the tree of life in the new Jerusalem. Beginning to end. Alpha Omega. He was foreknown before the creation of the world as the perfect blemish-free sacrifice before there was any legal need of any sacrifice. That was God's pre-existing plan. The plan always existed but was revealed in those last days (1 Pet. 1:19-20). We were sown incorruptible, made ourselves corrupted, die corrupt, but those in Christ will be raised incorruptible (1 Cor. 15:35-54).

I agree that God`s word is centered on Christ, revealing Him, His character, offices and His purposes.
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi Josheb,

You said -
Start by realizing the church has been grafted into an already-existing tree of Israel so any and all attempts to separate the two prove unscriptural. Then note that not all Israel is Israel and neither are all sons of Abraham sons of Abraham, but it is those who live by faith, not those of a specific bloodline nor geo-political nation-state who are God's chosen.


The Body of Christ is `grafted in` to the `root` which is the Lord.

The Lord is the `holy One` not Israel.

The Lord is the One who `supports us,` not Israel.

The Lord is the One who `nourishes us,` not Israel.

`For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.` (Rom. 11: 16)

`But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.` (Rom. 11: 18)

`…and you, …became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree.` (Rom. 11: 17)


Marilyn.
 
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BobRyan

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Big Errors: The Bride.

I believe that many people have been wrongly taught that the Body of Christ is also the `Bride` of Christ. I personally find this very strange that men especially would believe this - men becoming a bride/female, when we are saying that people of transgender are against God`s ways. `Men, come to Jesus and be His bride!` That is quite wrong!


There is NO scripture that tells us that the Body of Christ is also the Bride of Christ. No Scripture. People say, `It means purity.` We can say purity but NOT that men have to be female, a bride, especially in this season of LGTB.


There are 2 scriptures that people use to wrongly make this doctrine.

1.Eph. 5: 25 - 33. This scripture is after 4 chapters where the apostle Paul has laid out the doctrine of the Body of Christ, the New MAN. Then in chapter 5 Paul starts to exhort children, wives and husbands. He encourages the husbands to love their wives as Christ does His BODY. It is an exhortation.


2.In 2 Cor. 11: 1 - 3 the Apostle Paul is speaking specifically to his disciples in Corinth and saying that he wants to present them to the Lord, in purity, like a virgin. This is just a symbol, and just for his disciples. Paul does NOT present us to the Lord for it is the Lord Himself who will present us. (Jude 24)



So who is the `Bride?`

God`s word tells us that Israel is the Bride.

`For your husband is your Maker, whose name is the Lord of hosts…for the Lord has called you like a wife forsaken….` (Isa. 54: 5 & 6)

`I will betroth you to Me forever; yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and justice, in loving kindness and mercy; I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 3: 19 & 20)




Why is it important? There are different inheritances for Israel, (the Bride) and the Body of Christ, (the New Man).

`Let no one cheat you or your reward……and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the BODY, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)


Marilyn.

2.In 2 Cor. 11: 1 - 3 the Apostle Paul is speaking specifically to the church.
Just as in James 4 -- specifically to the church when unfaithful = "an adulteress"
2 You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God
 
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ViaCrucis

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Big Errors: The Bride.

I believe that many people have been wrongly taught that the Body of Christ is also the `Bride` of Christ. I personally find this very strange that men especially would believe this - men becoming a bride/female, when we are saying that people of transgender are against God`s ways. `Men, come to Jesus and be His bride!` That is quite wrong!


There is NO scripture that tells us that the Body of Christ is also the Bride of Christ. No Scripture. People say, `It means purity.` We can say purity but NOT that men have to be female, a bride, especially in this season of LGTB.


There are 2 scriptures that people use to wrongly make this doctrine.

1.Eph. 5: 25 - 33. This scripture is after 4 chapters where the apostle Paul has laid out the doctrine of the Body of Christ, the New MAN. Then in chapter 5 Paul starts to exhort children, wives and husbands. He encourages the husbands to love their wives as Christ does His BODY. It is an exhortation.


2.In 2 Cor. 11: 1 - 3 the Apostle Paul is speaking specifically to his disciples in Corinth and saying that he wants to present them to the Lord, in purity, like a virgin. This is just a symbol, and just for his disciples. Paul does NOT present us to the Lord for it is the Lord Himself who will present us. (Jude 24)



So who is the `Bride?`

God`s word tells us that Israel is the Bride.

`For your husband is your Maker, whose name is the Lord of hosts…for the Lord has called you like a wife forsaken….` (Isa. 54: 5 & 6)

`I will betroth you to Me forever; yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and justice, in loving kindness and mercy; I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 3: 19 & 20)




Why is it important? There are different inheritances for Israel, (the Bride) and the Body of Christ, (the New Man).

`Let no one cheat you or your reward……and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the BODY, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)


Marilyn.

Some issues:

1) The major complaint seems to be that if the Church is Christ's Bride that this is a "problem" because men are then regarded as "feminine" through this bridal language. Of course, this shouldn't be a problem at all, and seems to reflect a cultural inculcation of what "masculinity" means, rather than being concerned with good theology.

2) Following the above point, nothing is actually resolved by transferring the bridal language over to Israel, as Israel doesn't consist solely of female persons, but both men and women. Thus no resolution to the supposed "problem".

3) The serious theological error of making a fundamental distinction between Israel and the Church, when biblically God's People are God's People; Israel and the Church constitute the one, undivided People of God. The Church is Israel, Israel is the Church. What has changed is not God's promise, but that the old things of the Covenant established at Mt. Sinai has had its fulfillment in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ, the Son of David whose throne and kingdom is forever and ever. The Son of Man ascended, seated at the right hand of the Father, given all power and authority, who will come again as judge of the living and the dead. And, as the Messiah has come and with Him a New Covenant established in His blood as He Himself has said, in fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy, the old order of things which were a shadow of what was to come, now fulfilled and given Substance in Jesus Christ has brought newness and life--to both Jew and Gentile, to both those to whom were given the covenant of old and those now joined to them, grafted in by the grace of God, as the one new man in Christ.

And so we behold, in the grand vision of St. John the Divine, the New Jerusalem descending from above to earth, the Bride of the Lamb, with twelve foundations and twelve gates, the Apostles and Patriarchs. And descending, God makes the heavens and earth new, and God dwells with His people, they will be His people and He will be their God. And He shall provide from the tree of life healing to the nations. "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them." (Isaiah 11:6).

"But be glad and rejoice forever
in that which I create;
for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy,
and her people to be a gladness.
I will rejoice in Jerusalem
and be glad in my people;
no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping
and the cry of distress.
" - Isaiah 65:18-19

"But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother." - Galatians 4:26

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hi redleghunter,

The word is `it,` NOT `her.` The Apostles Paul had just finished writing the doctrine of the church being the BODY. Thus `Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for IT.` The KJV uses the word IT, and that is talking about the Lord`s BODY.

Eph. 5 concerns exhortations to children, wives and husbands, and it certainly NOT a DOCTRINE.

The word is αὐτῆς, and is the genitive feminine singular pronoun, the genitive neuter singular form would be αὐτοῦ. In other words it's "her", not "it".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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martymonster

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Big Errors: The Bride.

I believe that many people have been wrongly taught that the Body of Christ is also the `Bride` of Christ. I personally find this very strange that men especially would believe this - men becoming a bride/female, when we are saying that people of transgender are against God`s ways. `Men, come to Jesus and be His bride!` That is quite wrong!


There is NO scripture that tells us that the Body of Christ is also the Bride of Christ. No Scripture. People say, `It means purity.` We can say purity but NOT that men have to be female, a bride, especially in this season of LGTB.


There are 2 scriptures that people use to wrongly make this doctrine.

1.Eph. 5: 25 - 33. This scripture is after 4 chapters where the apostle Paul has laid out the doctrine of the Body of Christ, the New MAN. Then in chapter 5 Paul starts to exhort children, wives and husbands. He encourages the husbands to love their wives as Christ does His BODY. It is an exhortation.


2.In 2 Cor. 11: 1 - 3 the Apostle Paul is speaking specifically to his disciples in Corinth and saying that he wants to present them to the Lord, in purity, like a virgin. This is just a symbol, and just for his disciples. Paul does NOT present us to the Lord for it is the Lord Himself who will present us. (Jude 24)



So who is the `Bride?`

God`s word tells us that Israel is the Bride.

`For your husband is your Maker, whose name is the Lord of hosts…for the Lord has called you like a wife forsaken….` (Isa. 54: 5 & 6)

`I will betroth you to Me forever; yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and justice, in loving kindness and mercy; I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 3: 19 & 20)




Why is it important? There are different inheritances for Israel, (the Bride) and the Body of Christ, (the New Man).

`Let no one cheat you or your reward……and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the BODY, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)


Marilyn.

There are 2 women, just like there are Christs. One woman is a cheating harlot, and she cheats on her husband with another Jesus. The other woman is faithful to her husband.
 
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renniks

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Big Errors: The Bride.

I believe that many people have been wrongly taught that the Body of Christ is also the `Bride` of Christ. I personally find this very strange that men especially would believe this - men becoming a bride/female, when we are saying that people of transgender are against God`s ways. `Men, come to Jesus and be His bride!` That is quite wrong!


There is NO scripture that tells us that the Body of Christ is also the Bride of Christ. No Scripture. People say, `It means purity.` We can say purity but NOT that men have to be female, a bride, especially in this season of LGTB.


There are 2 scriptures that people use to wrongly make this doctrine.

1.Eph. 5: 25 - 33. This scripture is after 4 chapters where the apostle Paul has laid out the doctrine of the Body of Christ, the New MAN. Then in chapter 5 Paul starts to exhort children, wives and husbands. He encourages the husbands to love their wives as Christ does His BODY. It is an exhortation.


2.In 2 Cor. 11: 1 - 3 the Apostle Paul is speaking specifically to his disciples in Corinth and saying that he wants to present them to the Lord, in purity, like a virgin. This is just a symbol, and just for his disciples. Paul does NOT present us to the Lord for it is the Lord Himself who will present us. (Jude 24)



So who is the `Bride?`

God`s word tells us that Israel is the Bride.

`For your husband is your Maker, whose name is the Lord of hosts…for the Lord has called you like a wife forsaken….` (Isa. 54: 5 & 6)

`I will betroth you to Me forever; yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and justice, in loving kindness and mercy; I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 3: 19 & 20)




Why is it important? There are different inheritances for Israel, (the Bride) and the Body of Christ, (the New Man).

`Let no one cheat you or your reward……and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the BODY, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)


Marilyn.
It's figurative. No worries about men becoming female and such. Yes Christians are Christ's bride, and it's a beautiful metaphor.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Greek word is `antos` meaning, it, her, him, one, etc.

The context reveals which one. Paul is speaking of the Church, which God calls `the Body of Christ,` (Eph. 1: 23) Thus the word is `IT.`

Autos is the word you're thinking of, but Paul uses the genitive feminine singular of it, autes; the genitive neuter singular form would be autou.

Greek grammar has three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter; and has multiple cases and tenses. These change the morphology of the word.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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prodromos

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The Greek word is `antos` meaning, it, her, him, one, etc.

The context reveals which one. Paul is speaking of the Church, which God calls `the Body of Christ,` (Eph. 1: 23) Thus the word is `IT.`
Please don't pretend you know anything about Greek when it is obvious you don't. The gender of the article or pronoun always matches the gender of the noun. In this case they are all feminine.
 
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Big Errors: The Bride.

I believe that many people have been wrongly taught that the Body of Christ is also the `Bride` of Christ. I personally find this very strange that men especially would believe this - men becoming a bride/female, when we are saying that people of transgender are against God`s ways. `Men, come to Jesus and be His bride!` That is quite wrong!


There is NO scripture that tells us that the Body of Christ is also the Bride of Christ. No Scripture. People say, `It means purity.` We can say purity but NOT that men have to be female, a bride, especially in this season of LGTB.


There are 2 scriptures that people use to wrongly make this doctrine.

1.Eph. 5: 25 - 33. This scripture is after 4 chapters where the apostle Paul has laid out the doctrine of the Body of Christ, the New MAN. Then in chapter 5 Paul starts to exhort children, wives and husbands. He encourages the husbands to love their wives as Christ does His BODY. It is an exhortation.


2.In 2 Cor. 11: 1 - 3 the Apostle Paul is speaking specifically to his disciples in Corinth and saying that he wants to present them to the Lord, in purity, like a virgin. This is just a symbol, and just for his disciples. Paul does NOT present us to the Lord for it is the Lord Himself who will present us. (Jude 24)



So who is the `Bride?`

God`s word tells us that Israel is the Bride.

`For your husband is your Maker, whose name is the Lord of hosts…for the Lord has called you like a wife forsaken….` (Isa. 54: 5 & 6)

`I will betroth you to Me forever; yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and justice, in loving kindness and mercy; I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 3: 19 & 20)




Why is it important? There are different inheritances for Israel, (the Bride) and the Body of Christ, (the New Man).

`Let no one cheat you or your reward……and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the BODY, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)


Marilyn.
Jesus taught us differently: Matthew 22:30 (WEB)
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like God’s angels in heaven.

God is spirit. Those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. A man can not marry a man. I cannot accept that God will marry thousands upon thousands of both men and women. Polygamy is bad enough. I can not accept this part of Revelation.
 
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Josheb

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The Body of Christ is `grafted in` to the `root` which is the Lord.

The Lord is the `holy One` not Israel.

The Lord is the One who `supports us,` not Israel.

The Lord is the One who `nourishes us,` not Israel.

`For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.` (Rom. 11: 16)

`But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.` (Rom. 11: 18)

`…and you, …became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree.` (Rom. 11: 17)


Marilyn.
Fail.

I didn't mention the root. I mentioned the tree. The "wild" branches are grafted into an existing tree and they both partake of the same root, that is the Lord. So you've 1) ignored the scripture cited, 2) ignored the context of the text, and three argued a red herring.

And you've proven my point: There is no two different blessings! There is one tree. Not two.

You said the church's inheritance is in heaven and Israel's is on earth. Yet scripture asserted and I have argued and now you have confirmed there is only one tree and its common root is Christ.

Who is the "first fruits"?

Romans 8:18-23
"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body."

Who is the "we" of that text? Christians! It is the Christian, both Jew and Gentile who possesses the first fruits of the Spirit that is.... Christ crucified and resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:20-25
"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet."

Christ is the first fruits.

James 1:12-18
"Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures."

Who is the "we" of that text? According to the opening of the letter it is, "the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad" who believe in the resurrected Lord. Christians!

Revelation 14:1-5
"Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless."

Who would the first century readers have understood to be the ones "purchased from among men" by Christ?

So again we see the shared imagery of "first fruit" being the Spirit, Jesus, the Gentile converts and tall those who follow Christ. This figure of first fruit goes all the way back to Exodus and the Mosaic code, the tithe of Abraham and the sacrifice of Abel, and even the first sacrifice in which God clothed the first sinners by the shedding of blood. All foreshadowing Christ and his body.
 
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Life Beyond

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In my understanding the bride of Christ is the church herself.
“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:2‬ ‭ESV‬‬
 
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Marilyn C

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Autos is the word you're thinking of, but Paul uses the genitive feminine singular of it, autes; the genitive neuter singular form would be autou.

Greek grammar has three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter; and has multiple cases and tenses. These change the morphology of the word.

-CryptoLutheran

Hi ViaCrucis,

Thankyou for the spelling correction - Greek `autos,` meaning it, her, him one, etc. from the Strong`s Concordance.

The Greek word `autou,` genitive, meaning belonging in this or that place. from the Strong`s.

So looking at Eph. 5:30 we read - `For we are members of His Body, of His flesh, and of His bones.` Paul is exhorting husbands to love their wives as Christ does His own Body - `it.`

`It` refers to neither male or female in the natural sense, for we are the New Man, (Eph. 2:15) which has qualities of both male and female, but not the reproductive organs. We do not marry in heaven but as like the angels in that respect. (Mark 12: 25)

Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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Please don't pretend you know anything about Greek when it is obvious you don't. The gender of the article or pronoun always matches the gender of the noun. In this case they are all feminine.

And the noun is `the church,` the Body of Christ.

`For we are members of His Body, of His flesh, and of His bones.` (Eph. 5: 30) Paul is exhorting husbands to love their wives as Christ does His own Body - `it.`

`It` refers to neither male or female in the natural sense, for we are the New Man, (Eph. 2:15) which has qualities of both male and female, but not the reproductive organs. We do not marry in heaven but as like the angels in that respect. (Mark 12: 25)

Marilyn.
 
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