BIG ERRORS: The Bride.

Marilyn C

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Big Errors: The Bride.

I believe that many people have been wrongly taught that the Body of Christ is also the `Bride` of Christ. I personally find this very strange that men especially would believe this - men becoming a bride/female, when we are saying that people of transgender are against God`s ways. `Men, come to Jesus and be His bride!` That is quite wrong!


There is NO scripture that tells us that the Body of Christ is also the Bride of Christ. No Scripture. People say, `It means purity.` We can say purity but NOT that men have to be female, a bride, especially in this season of LGTB.


There are 2 scriptures that people use to wrongly make this doctrine.

1.Eph. 5: 25 - 33. This scripture is after 4 chapters where the apostle Paul has laid out the doctrine of the Body of Christ, the New MAN. Then in chapter 5 Paul starts to exhort children, wives and husbands. He encourages the husbands to love their wives as Christ does His BODY. It is an exhortation.


2.In 2 Cor. 11: 1 - 3 the Apostle Paul is speaking specifically to his disciples in Corinth and saying that he wants to present them to the Lord, in purity, like a virgin. This is just a symbol, and just for his disciples. Paul does NOT present us to the Lord for it is the Lord Himself who will present us. (Jude 24)



So who is the `Bride?`

God`s word tells us that Israel is the Bride.

`For your husband is your Maker, whose name is the Lord of hosts…for the Lord has called you like a wife forsaken….` (Isa. 54: 5 & 6)

`I will betroth you to Me forever; yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and justice, in loving kindness and mercy; I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 3: 19 & 20)




Why is it important? There are different inheritances for Israel, (the Bride) and the Body of Christ, (the New Man).

`Let no one cheat you or your reward……and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the BODY, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)


Marilyn.
 
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redleghunter

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Let’s put up what Ephesians 5 actually says where Paul likens or parallels the relationship.

Ephesians 5: NASB

22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,30because we are members of His body.31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
 
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Jeshu

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I personally find this very strange that men especially would believe this - men becoming a bride/female

Jesus Himself teaches us that in His Kingdom we shall all be His mothers. "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.
 
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Josheb

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There is NO scripture that tells us that the Body of Christ is also the Bride of Christ. No Scripture.
Well, let's see,

Revelation 21:1-22:21
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, 'Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.' ....Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, 'Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.' And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone... I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. 'I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.' The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come.' And let the one who hears say, 'Come.' And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost...."

So the city of peace (jeru = city; salem = peace) is the one adorned like a bride. When Jesus shows his bride it is the city of peace and there is no temple in it because the temple of that city is Jesus.

1 Corinthians 3:10-17
"According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are."

John makes it quite clear Jesus is the temple of God in the city of peace. Paul makes it quite clear and plain we are the temple of God.

Matthew 5:13-16
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men. You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."

Referencing Isaiah 2:2 the author of Hebrews wrote,

Hebrews 12:14-24
"Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears. For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. For they could not bear the command, 'If even a beast touches the mountain it will be stoned.' And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, 'I am full of fear and trembling.' But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel."

There is a parallel between the Jewish "qahal" (assembly) and the Greek "ekklesia" (those called out). Here the author of Hebrews references both and combines them. This assembly of those called out by God are the mountain, the city of God.

John 2:13-22
"The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables; and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business." His disciples remembered that it was written, 'Zeal for Your house will consume me.' The Jews then said to Him, 'What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?' Jesus answered them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' The Jews then said, 'It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?' But He was speaking of the temple of His body. So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken."

The body of Christ, crucified and resurrected was raised in three days and on that day was established the ekklesia, the body of Christ, the temple of God with Christ as its foundation, cornerstone, and capstone.

The bride of Christ is the body of Christ. See also 2 Samuel 7and note the three who are mentioned as the one who would build God's temple. All of these NT passages reference OT prophesy. One last and very critically important passage:

2 Samuel 7:4-11
"But in the same night the word of the LORD came to Nathan, saying, 'Go and say to My servant David, 'Thus says the LORD, 'Are you the one who should build Me a house to dwell in? For I have not dwelt in a house since the day I brought up the sons of Israel from Egypt, even to this day; but I have been moving about in a tent, even in a tabernacle. Wherever I have gone with all the sons of Israel, did I speak a word with one of the tribes of Israel, which I commanded to shepherd My people Israel, saying, 'Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?' ...The LORD also declares to you that the LORD will make a house for you."

God does not live in houses built by human hands; the house He built was His Son, crucified and resurrected and his body, the body of Christ in whom the Spirit of God Himself dwells.

Isaiah 66:1
"Thus says the LORD, 'Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?'"

Acts 7:48-50 ESV
"Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made by hands, as the prophet says, ‘Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest? Did not my hand make all these things?’"

Acts 17:24-30
"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent..."

God does not dwell in houses made by human hands. He dwells in us, the bride of His Son, the temple of God, the new city of peace that comes down from heaven adorned like a bride.
 
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Marilyn C

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Let’s put up what Ephesians 5 actually says where Paul likens or parallels the relationship.

Ephesians 5: NASB

22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. ....

Hi redleghunter,

The word is `it,` NOT `her.` The Apostles Paul had just finished writing the doctrine of the church being the BODY. Thus `Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for IT.` The KJV uses the word IT, and that is talking about the Lord`s BODY.

Eph. 5 concerns exhortations to children, wives and husbands, and it certainly NOT a DOCTRINE.
 
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redleghunter

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Hi redleghunter,

The word is `it,` NOT `her.` The Apostles Paul had just finished writing the doctrine of the church being the BODY. Thus `Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for IT.` The KJV uses the word IT, and that is talking about the Lord`s BODY.

Eph. 5 concerns exhortations to children, wives and husbands, and it certainly NOT a DOCTRINE.
Paul explains the context of his dialogue here:


32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.


And I get your point about Israel. Crystal clear language there. But consider we Gentiles are grafted in.
 
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Marilyn C

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Jesus Himself teaches us that in His Kingdom we shall all be His mothers. "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.

Hi Jeshu,

Jesus is speaking to the people of Israel there. The Body of Christ revelation was not revealed at that time. Also where the Body of Christ will go, to the third heaven, there is No marrying.

`For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are lie the angels in heaven.` (Mark 12: 25)
 
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Marilyn C

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Paul explains the context of his dialogue here:

And I get your point about Israel. Crystal clear language there. But consider we Gentiles are grafted in.

Hi redleghunter,

Thank you for your polite reply. Now Paul tells us that the BODY is the mystery, NOT the Bride. (Eph. 3; 3) That revelation was known to Israel.

As to being `grafted in.` We, the Body of Christ are grafted in to the Lord. He is the holy root that nourishes us. (Rom. 11: 16 & 17)

Israel has been promised a different inheritance from the Body of Christ. Yet all are under His rulership and are children of God in His great kingdom.
 
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redleghunter

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Hi redleghunter,

Thank you for your polite reply. Now Paul tells us that the BODY is the mystery, NOT the Bride. (Eph. 3; 3) That revelation was known to Israel.

As to being `grafted in.` We, the Body of Christ are grafted in to the Lord. He is the holy root that nourishes us. (Rom. 11: 16 & 17)

Israel has been promised a different inheritance from the Body of Christ. Yet all are under His rulership and are children of God in His great kingdom.
Thanks. Not really important but do you hail from a Dispensational church? I am familiar with that view of Israel vs Church from Dispensational teaching. Like I said just curious as I was in an Open Plymouth Brethren Church many moons ago. :)

In Ephesians 5, we cannot escape Paul “likening” human marriage to our relationship with Him. Does that lead us to conclude we Christians are indeed the Bride of Christ (from the passages we speak of from Ephesians 5) and be dogmatic? No I would agree with you. We would have to explore the theme throughout the NT.

And I clearly do agree ALL the promises made to Israel will be fulfilled by God.
 
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Marilyn C

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Well, let's see,

Revelation 21:1-22:21
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. .


Hi Josheb,

Thank you for bringing up this point. Here we see that the symbol,` Bride` is used for the city. `...as a bride..` shows us that it is a symbol, `as a....`

God uses that terminology for Israel, and then also for the city. It has nothing to do with the Body of Christ. The city in the General Assembly `comes down` out of heaven, whereas the Body of Christ stays in the third heaven with Christ on His throne.
 
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Marilyn C

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Thanks. Not really important but do you hail from a Dispensational church? I am familiar with that view of Israel vs Church from Dispensational teaching. Like I said just curious as I was in an Open Plymouth Brethren Church many moons ago. :)

In Ephesians 5, we cannot escape Paul “likening” human marriage to our relationship with Him. Does that lead us to conclude we Christians are indeed the Bride of Christ (from the passages we speak of from Ephesians 5) and be dogmatic? No I would agree with you. We would have to explore the theme throughout the NT.

And I clearly do agree ALL the promises made to Israel will be fulfilled by God.

Hi redleghunter,

Not sure by what you mean `dispensational.` I do believe that God has purposes for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations.

I think people read into that illustration too much. Paul is exhorting husbands to love their wives. That is all he is saying.

Glad you see that one cannot build a doctrine on that exhortation.
 
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Josheb

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Hi Josheb,

Thank you for bringing up this point. Here we see that the symbol,` Bride` is used for the city. `...as a bride..` shows us that it is a symbol, `as a....`

God uses that terminology for Israel, and then also for the city. It has nothing to do with the Body of Christ. The city in the General Assembly `comes down` out of heaven, whereas the Body of Christ stays in the third heaven with Christ on His throne.

Both the op and this response to which I now reply are incorrect. I showed how. Mere dissent is worthless unless and until you make a case for your position. You appear to have a futurist position, perhaps Dispensational. I strongly encourage some reading on the more historical, orthodox, and mainstream views held in Christendom because the position of this op is none of the above.

Start be realizing the church has been grafted into an already-existing tree of Israel so any and all attempts to separate the two prove unscriptural. Then note that not all Israel is Israel and neither are all sons of Abraham sons of Abraham, but it is those who live by faith, not those of a specific bloodline nor geo-political nation-state who are God's chosen.

There are not different inheritances for Israel and the church.

It's odd that Isaiah 54:5-6 quote-mined and not the fact the prophesy was tied to the Redeemer, who has come and gone as the redeemer of Israel not be noted. Jesus has been there and done the redeemer thing. When he comes again it will have nothing to do with a salvation from sin (Heb. 9:28). Note that verse 9 of Isaiah 54 makes reference to the days of Noah, just as Jesus did in Matthew 24. Note that in the days of Noah it was those who were taken away by the flood that were destroyed and it was those who remained that lived in God's blessing and provision. It is not a passage that can or should be used to support a rapture theology.

What you've done is proof-text. Proof-texting is the taking of a single verse (or two), removed from its context and surrounding text and forming of doctrine based on that single verse. It is bad exegesis and does not lead to sound doctrine. The entire Isaiah 54 passage is about the coming of the Messiah and he came in the first century a.d..

Note the op incorrectly cites Hosea 3 when it should state Hosea 2. Note Hosea 2 is also correlated to the bride of Isaiah 54. Note also that the Hosea 2 passage concludes with the statement,

Hosea 2:19-23
"I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and in justice, In lovingkindness and in compassion, And I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness. Then you will know the LORD. "It will come about in that day that I will respond," declares the LORD. "I will respond to the heavens, and they will respond to the earth, And the earth will respond to the grain, to the new wine and to the oil, And they will respond to Jezreel. I will sow her for Myself in the land. I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, And I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they will say, 'You are my God!'"

So we ask ourselves, "When does the Bible say a people not God's people became His people?" and, of course, you already know the answer: the first century following Calvary and Pentecost. This is stated in the much debated Romans 9 chapter in which Paul addresses the unbelief of Israel and references Hosea 2.


Romans 9:19-28 ESV
"You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: 'Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.'”

We, the ekklesia, are those formerly not God's people who are now God's people, and only a remnant of Israel would be saved. In other words, Paul was informing his audience the prophesies of Isaiah 54 and Hosea 2 had come true in their day.

Peter confirmed this in his first epistle when he wrote to those "...who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood..." and he too referenced Hosea 2,

1 Peter 2:4-10 ESV
"As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: 'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.' So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, 'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,' and 'A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.' But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."

The ekklesia are the chosen people. Period. The ekklesia are those of both Israel and the Gentiles (who were grafted into Israel) who live by faith, not bloodline or Mosaic law. That Israel is the bride.The church, not bloodline Judaism is the bride. The church did not replace Israel; it was grafted into Israel and all of the promises made to Israel were through the seed that is Jesus, not the seed that is Israel. Israel itself was symbolic of Christ, the holy one of God, the separate one of God.

Hosea 11:1
"When Israel was a youth I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son."

Matthew 2:15
"He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: Out of Egypt I called my son."

Jesus is Israel; the Israel of God.

Galatians 3:7-16
"Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.' Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for 'The righteous shall live by faith.' But the law is not of faith, rather 'The one who does them shall live by them.' Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree' — so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, 'And to offsprings,' referring to many, but referring to one, 'And to your offspring,' who is Christ."

The OT informs the NT; the NT interprets the OT. The NT tells us what to make of the Abrahamic covenant and it tells us Jesus is the promised seed, not bloodline nation-state Israel.


Fundamentally what the two-blessing position asserts is a works-based salvation. Caution and discernment should be applied anytime hearing/reading others teach this set of doctrines. They will deny it as a works-based salvation but if a person has to be both Jewish and faithful to the law in order to be saved by Jesus then that is in fact a works-based soteriology. They cannot appeal to both the blood/law/nation status and Ephesians 2:8-10 without being self-contradictory.


Pick up a copy of "The Case for Amillennialism," by Kim Riddlebarger and "Last Days Madness" by Gary Demar if you haven't already read them. There are a couple of survey books that will cover the diversity of views but Riddlebarger's and Demar's books will speak plainly to the problems in futurist duality. The survey books are:

"The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views," edited by Robert Clouse
"The Millennium and Beyond," edited by Stanley Gundry
"Four Views on the Book of Revelation," edited by Stanley Gundry



One last note: do not take my bluntness as an intent to be rude or disrespectful. None was intended; none should be construed.
 
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prodromos

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Hi redleghunter,

The word is `it,` NOT `her.` The Apostles Paul had just finished writing the doctrine of the church being the BODY. Thus `Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for IT.` The KJV uses the word IT, and that is talking about the Lord`s BODY.

Eph. 5 concerns exhortations to children, wives and husbands, and it certainly NOT a DOCTRINE.
The Greek is feminine, not neuter. The correct translation is "her". This does not mean that men who are united to the Church become female any more than women who are united to Christ's body become male. The Church is referred to both as the bride of Christ and as Christ's body. Most languages have gender but the gender of the term does not necessarily entail that the object described by the term is male or female.
 
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Marilyn C

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Both the op and this response to which I now reply are incorrect. I showed how. Mere dissent is worthless unless and until you make a case for your position. You appear to have a futurist position, perhaps Dispensational. I strongly encourage some reading on the more historical, orthodox, and mainstream views held in Christendom because the position of this op is none of the above.

Start be realizing the church has been grafted into an already-existing tree of Israel so any and all attempts to separate the two prove unscriptural. Then note that not all Israel is Israel and neither are all sons of Abraham sons of Abraham, but it is those who live by faith, not those of a specific bloodline nor geo-political nation-state who are God's chosen.

.

Hi Josheb,

in Rom. 11: 17 & 18 we see that the `root is holy,` and the `root supports` us, as well as nourishes us. The `root` is the Lord Himself, NOT Israel. We are not grafted into Israel but into the Lord.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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What you've done is proof-text. Proof-texting is the taking of a single verse (or two), removed from its context and surrounding text and forming of doctrine based on that single verse. It is bad exegesis and does not lead to sound doctrine. .

Hi Josheb,

That is exactly what people do saying that the Body of Christ is a bride. They refer to two scriptures, one which is an exhortation and the other written specifically to Paul`s disciples. And that is certainly not how to develop sound doctrine as you well said.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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The Greek is feminine, not neuter. The correct translation is "her". This does not mean that men who are united to the Church become female any more than women who are united to Christ's body become male. The Church is referred to both as the bride of Christ and as Christ's body. Most languages have gender but the gender of the term does not necessarily entail that the object described by the term is male or female.

Hi prodromos,

God`s word NEVER says that the Body of Christ, His Body, is the `bride.` The context of the scripture in Eph. 5: 25 is the church, the Body of Christ, as Paul revealed in Eph. 1: 23.

`Husbands love your wives, just as Christ loved the Church, (the Body of Christ, Eph. 1: 23) and gave Himself for IT.` (Eph. 5: 25)

The Apostle Paul has spent 4 chapters revealing that we are the Body of Christ and what it consists of. It is the mystery not known before but revealed to the apostle Paul. In ch. 5 & 6 he then just exhorts the children, the wives and husbands in their conduct. It is not a doctrine of the bride.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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Josheb

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Hi Josheb,

That is exactly what people do saying that the Body of Christ is a bride. They refer to two scriptures, one which is an exhortation and the other written specifically to Paul`s disciples. And that is certainly not how to develop sound doctrine as you well said.

regards, Marilyn.
That is exactly what happened in this op! Can you not see that?

It is not what I have done. I have surveyed a diversity of scripture from Genesis to Revelation, taking scripture in context, read as written, sampling much of what the whole says on the subject of the bride. The evidence was provided. I don't read any actual refutation. Neither do I read any actual engagement of the posted content.

Fundamentally, a single very plain and simple truth is at play: the Bible is not about humanity. The Bible, from beginning to end is about Jesus. He is the tree of life in Eden and He is the tree of life in the new Jerusalem. Beginning to end. Alpha Omega. He was foreknown before the creation of the world as the perfect blemish-free sacrifice before there was any legal need of any sacrifice. That was God's pre-existing plan. The plan always existed but was revealed in those last days (1 Pet. 1:19-20). We were sown incorruptible, made ourselves corrupted, die corrupt, but those in Christ will be raised incorruptible (1 Cor. 15:35-54).

I don't know if you are dispensational but the posts read that way. Dispensationalism does not view scripture as contiguous or a single progressive revelation. This lies at the core of the dispensational pov. It is a substantive departure from 1800 years of Christian thought, doctrine and practice. I don't wish to digress from the op but if you are dispensational and interested I'll gladly provide some basic info for you to investigate on your own. Otherwise the books I recommended will get you started. Many modern believers think futurism has always been the mainstream view but that is not the case.

The salient, op-relevant point is that the bride is the body of Christ and it is all imagery. There are on brides on the other side of the grave. We'll be like the angels, not giving and receiving in marriage. Marriage and all the imagery that accompanies it..... are simply temporal expressions that testify to Jesus. All the law, psalms, and prophets testify to Christ! That includes the imagery of marriage. Surely you understand the "three-stranded cord" of Ecclesiastes 4 (esp. vss. 9-12) included God as a component of the marital relationship between husband and wife. Marriage is a temporal expression of a divine relationship.

You are correct to say Israel is the bride but that Israel is not bloodline, geo-political Israel. Israel that is Israel is those who live by faith, those formerly both Jew and Gentile who were once not God's people but are now God's people (remember the descendants of Abraham were not God's people until God selected them and made them His covenant people). To understand the "bride" symbolism we must begin in the beginning, not three-fourths of the way through the Tanakh at Isaiah 54. Even Isaiah has preceding context.

Yes, people often proof-text to make their case for the bride being the church, but this op practiced the same methodology. I did not. The evidence has been presented and I'm happy to discuss that evidence with you. Or not. Pick a point and make comment or inquiry. Or not. You choose.
 
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Josheb

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What does dispensationalism have to do with the topic? God’s methods of unfolding are obvious to anyone who has read the bible. But like any other denominational dogmas or theoretical theology it has many forms.
Perhaps nothing but the op and its supporting posts sound like dispensationalism. There is a distinction made between Israel and the church that doesn't exist in Christian doctrine except in dispensationalism. There is a certain futurism that, again, doesn't exist in most of Christian doctrine except in dispensationalism. There were eschatological assertions made that don't exist except in dispensationalism. Only three options: 1) the op is knowingly dispensational, 2) the op is unwittingly dispensational, 3) the op is some other stance that is neither dispensational or pre-1830 Christian thought. It would certainly help to know from whence the op was posted, doctrinally speaking.

You say God's methods... are obvious but that wasn't the case on many occasion in Christian history. The church spent its first 400 years ironing out its doctrine and did so with much prayerful and rigorous debate. God's methods weren't so "obvious" to many in those days. God's method wasn't so obvious to John Darby and others in the 1800's restoration movements as they radically dearted from 18 centuries of long- and well-established Christian thought, doctrine, and practice.

And the idea that God's obvious methods have have many dogmatic and theological forms is self-contradictory. Not only is the statement self-contradictory but if there's any semblance of truth in then you've answered your own question: some denominational dogma and theoretical theology prompted this op and knowing that might well aid the converation. At a minimum, because of its contradictory nature that statement warrants clarification in another op where it doesn't digress from this one ;).
 
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jahel

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Perhaps nothing but the op and its supporting posts sound like dispensationalism. There is a distinction made between Israel and the church that doesn't exist in Christian doctrine except in dispensationalism.
That’s a direction that Bullinger took in applying all of Revelation from 1-22 as applying to Jews only. You really have to find the meat and throw out the bones in any form of one person’s teachings.
There is a certain futurism that, again, doesn't exist in most of Christian doctrine except in dispensationalism. There were eschatological assertions made that don't exist except in dispensationalism. Only three options: 1) the op is knowingly dispensational, 2) the op is unwittingly dispensational, 3) the op is some other stance that is neither dispensational or pre-1830 Christian thought. It would certainly help to know from whence the op was posted, doctrinally speaking.
Sorry but applying dispensation to her as a means of excluding all dispensation thought isn’t going to help clarify anything.

You say God's methods... are obvious but that wasn't the case on many occasion in Christian history. The church spent its first 400 years ironing out its doctrine and did so with much prayerful and rigorous debate. God's methods weren't so "obvious" to many in those days. God's method wasn't so obvious to John Darby and others in the 1800's restoration movements as they radically dearted from 18 centuries of long- and well-established Christian thought, doctrine, and practice.
We’re either in the age of grace or we’re in the age of human/divine gvmnt. I think you are trying to argue the rapture?

And the idea that God's obvious methods have have many dogmatic and theological forms is self-contradictory. Not only is the statement self-contradictory but if there's any semblance of truth in then you've answered your own question: some denominational dogma and theoretical theology prompted this op and knowing that might well aid the converation. At a minimum, because of its contradictory nature that statement warrants clarification in another op where it doesn't digress from this one ;).
Maybe. I’ll just watch the thread then.
 
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