Biden's Education Sec Pick Asked About Boys Playing in Girls' Sports

[zippy2006]

I strongly suspect that the vast, vast majority of transgender individuals do not undergo the hormone replacements and surgeries required simply to play sports against the opposite gender. I'm sure someone, somewhere has done it, but...

But on your model if the biological male hasn't taken enough estrogen then they wouldn't be allowed to play in the women's league, so you've erected a very problematic incentive.

 

[zippy2006]

I'm sure the various leagues are capable of making fair decisions that are in the best interests of the sports in question. Whether conservative Christians happen to like them or not.

In the face of public pressure and LGBT lobbying, I'm not at all sure that they are capable.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

But on your model if the biological male hasn't taken enough estrogen then they wouldn't be allowed to play in the women's league, so you've erected a very problematic incentive.

Just to be clear - are you suggesting that men would undergo gender reassignment surgery and hormone therapy just to participate in women's sports leagues? Do you have any concept of what that means?

 

[zippy2006]

Just to be clear - are you suggesting that men would undergo gender reassignment surgery and hormone therapy just to participate in women's sports leagues? Do you have any concept of what that means?

That could happen, but it's not necessary for my argument. Construing it that way is a strawman.

(If I am the #200 ranked men's player and I could have a surgery that would give me access to millions of dollars of prize money at the women's #1 spot then surely I might consider the surgery. This is a separate, but real issue that is also ignored.)

 

[RocksInMyHead]

That could happen, but it's not necessary for my argument. Construing it that way is a strawman.

Then what is your argument? Because that's the only one you've been making, as far as I can tell.

 

[zippy2006]

Sure they can. It does depend on when those hormones are received and how much of them, but hormones are the primary drivers of our physiques.

Check out Joe Rogan's video, "Joe Rogan Reflects on Fallon Fox Controversy" for nuance to your claim and an example of a very problematic instance.

 

[zippy2006]

Then what is your argument? Because that's the only one you've been making, as far as I can tell.

That's because you ignored post #21. Even someone who has gender dysphoria will be incentivized towards hormonal treatments if you make admission into leagues based on hormone levels.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

That's because you ignored post #21. Even someone who has gender dysphoria will be incentivized towards hormonal treatments if you make admission into leagues based on hormone levels.

I would think that the gender dysphoria would be a far greater incentive than getting to play in the WNBA.

 

[rambot]

Finally! The REAL issues that impact millions!

No comments here on forgiveness of student loan debt eh?

 

[hedrick]

I watched the clip. The Senator implied, without quite saying it, that the top 20% of boys would compete with girls. Of course that's not what anyone is proposing. My impression is that Paul doesn't believe in the existence of transgenders, because if he did he would have asked about trans girls competing with girls, not boys competing with girls. I generally follow current medical expertise, not traditional culture.

 

[Hank77]

Then what is your argument? Because that's the only one you've been making, as far as I can tell.

Why are there divisions by weight in wrestling and boxing?

 

[Nithavela]

My personal stance on the issue is "we have bigger problems".

 

[hedrick]

We're talking about sports, not something really important... like global warming.

So why the outrage? Sports change. They didn't used to allow black folks to play baseball with white people, either.

This turns out to be the best way to get people upset about trans rights. I very much doubt that Paul is otherwise fine with trans, and is just upset about the impact on women’s sports.

 

[WolfGate]

TRANSATHLETE High school transgender athlete policies

Some in this thread have discussed hormone treatment, etc. Currently in 16 states, all that is required is for the athlete to say they identify with the other gender, and they can compete. So yes, an untreated birth sex male could compete as a girl in those states, and in cases they have.

It dis important to the girl athletes. A few years ago my daughter finished 3rd in the state in 100yard freestyle. She would not have made the boys final but went on to college to swim for a nationally ranked swim team. The girl winner, who went on to swim for a large D1 school, would have finished out of the top 10 in the boys final. Differences are huge. Olympic Trial Qualifying times. Women in 50Y free is 25.65 seconds. Men's is 22.71 seconds. Between 100 - 200 women (high school, college and beyond combined) will make that 25.65 cut. According to USA Swimming statistics, 7% of all 17-18 year old high school boys can make that 25.65 cut. Allow birth sex boys who identify as girls but have made no biological changes to swim with the girls and the girls have no chance if the birth sex boy is even a moderate talent. Carry that concept into college where scholarship money and coaches careers are on the line, and if you also allow them to compete with the women's team there, swimming would essentially become coed.

 

[zippy2006]

I would think that the gender dysphoria would be a far greater incentive than getting to play in the WNBA.

Have you somehow managed to convince yourself that hormone treatments are a binary operation? That there is no question of the degree of hormones? After all, the whole system you proposed is based on levels of hormones. If you don't understand that setting a hormone threshold for sports admittance will lead to incentivizing large levels of hormonal treatments, then I'm not sure what to tell you. The threshold would obviously be based on the average hormone levels of the sex in question, not what trans people themselves prefer or feel is adequate for visual purposes.

 

[Ken-1122]

So you think this guy should play women's sports?

How about him? He played women's sports before undergoing gender reassignment surgery.

I believe biological males should play in male sports, and biological females should play in female sports; regardless of their physical appearance. I also believe they should not be allowed to use anabolic steroids or testosterone, while playing sports.

 

[Ken-1122]

And the same goes for transgender women. If their hormones are within the normal range for women, is there any reason why they shouldn't be allowed to participate in women's sports?

For a biological male to spend his whole life with a testosterone level of 1000 to bring it down to 20, and compete against biological women who has had their testosterone levels at 20 their entire lives would be like a man using steroids for years, then going off the drug just before a sports event so his levels go back to normal; then competing against guys who never used steroids a day in their lives; it isn't the same.

 

[Ken-1122]

Sure they can. It does depend on when those hormones are received and how much of them, but hormones are the primary drivers of our physiques.

I disagree. Testosterone only effects strength, biological men also have more bone density, stamina, quickness, a host of other advantages not effected by hormone therapy.

 

[FireDragon76]

This turns out to be the best way to get people upset about trans rights. I very much doubt that Paul is otherwise fine with trans, and is just upset about the impact on women’s sports.

There's no doubt challenges but I trust that the sports' regulatory bodies will find solutions that help preserve the interest in their sports and yet also try to be more inclusive.

This just doesn't require a deep philosophical debate about "What exactly is a woman?" That's rather abstract (and it concedes too much ground to social conservatives, who invariably will resort to their religious leaders telling them what to believe), when in reality we are dealing with concrete human beings who should be treated with dignity, and not merely as problems that need to go away.

 

[KCfromNC]

My personal stance on the issue is "we have bigger problems".

And yet this is this best outrage about the new administration that can currently be manufactured. Kinda makes me wonder why anyone would bother. I mean, who's going to fall for it?