Biden will withdraw troops and leave American’s behind

[inquiring mind]

Actually, you don't know that everything would have gone smooth, inasmuch as it never happened.

What would not have gone smooth for anyone: Not all Americans would have queued up as desired for evacuation under anyone's plan because Americans are contrary like that.

What would not have gone smooth for anyone: Any kind of combat, because no operational plan has ever survived contact with the enemy. "Combat' and "smooth" are mutually exclusive propositions.

What was it, almost a year without a fatality. If that's true it looks as though Trump and his commanders had it on track. With the 20/20 hindsight 'we all should have now' with both administrations and the consequences of their actions, my gut feeling tells me it would have been a lot prettier picture with Trump than the one we have now.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Why were Americans in Afghanistan giving the circumstances? Why didn’t they leave sooner?

The video I already posted I think gives the answer made before Biden's state of the union.

But in summary (my own words)

1) There is lots of guilt and fear if the place falls apart after we leave, and the notion that it might become a base of terrorism again made folks want to never leave it because the cost to invade or setup an operation is high etc. It's kind of like the law of inertia is true for social phenomenon besides nature etc. e.g. Obama realized it was cheaper to not scrap his political campaign after getting elected but keep it churning along and everybody followed suit.



2) The Generals deliberately lied the video talks about that.

I had some experience growing up on a military research base around age 4-6. But when I was very little the admiral in charge got mad at the civilians scientists that lived and worked there (He couldn't boss them around like he could Navy people). And he used base funds to have his own private cul-de-sac where no civilians lived and it was guarded by at least one military policeman at all times to keep civilians out. But after a few years of this someone said something to their state representative or someone in Washington and he got in trouble and got mad and kicked the civilians off the base and they went to live in the town that bordered the base. Anyway some people I think like to have their little fiefdoms etc. and that gets into things like budgets not wanting your budget cut from peace etc.

Besides this there is the obvious problem of people becoming lobbyists and the sort of conflict of interest that presents for things. But it looks like their is some kind of brand new law on the books past in 2020 or so that deals with that, but I think that probably was one of those "Beware of the Military Industrial Complex" type issues.

 

[Vylo]

What i know:

• Biden had many years of experience on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee
• Unlike his predecessor, his Cabinet is composed of experienced, capable people--not lobbyists and campaign contributors.
• He listens to his advisors. He reads his briefings.
• He brought his rosary in the situation room when Bin Laden was captured. He knows which side of the Bible is the top.

Maybe Biden does not want to promise what he can't guarantee.

Honesty after the nan of 20,000 + lies.

If he listed to his cabinet members, and reads his briefings, which we have every indication he does, then he lied to the American people and let Afghanistan fall into chaos.

This may all seem haphazard, but comes off as calculated. It is just about as far off from the 2024 election as you can get. while Biden isn't the white hot ball of rage inducement that Trump was, something else will come up and our focus will shift by time any of the fall out can reach biden. He may even retire. Meanwhile all the others involved get to walk away unscathed. This seems like it might be a parting gift to all the hawks who kept us embroiled in this.

 

[bèlla]

The video I already posted I think gives the answer made before Biden's state of the union.

I appreciate yours and @RDKirk input. I don’t have much experience with the military. But admittedly, when I saw the situation unfold and all they left behind my gut said that was the plan all along. It didn’t seem haphazard. We aren’t privy to what was said behind closed doors. We know what they told us.

As Golem would say, they’re tricksy. I worked for a political appointee at a federal agency. You learn pretty quick there’s more than meets the eye.

 

[Nithavela]

It would have been catastrophic for any president.

That's why Trump, cowardly and narcissistic, kicked it forward.

It took courage for Biden to take action, but it needed to be done for years. Biden is no coward and no narcissist.

Courage isn't enough when there is no competence.

 

[Clintpauljohnson]

I think I heard there are as few as 500 left, so the ones that want to leave have left imo

 

[Pavel Mosko]

But admittedly, when I saw the situation unfold and all they left behind my gut said that was the plan all along.

Well when I saw that one of my early thoughts was "Are they gifting that stuff to the Taliban in exchange for their continued good behavior?". I actually talked to my best friend on the phone about that when it first happened and he argued "Hanon's Law" below. That I guess is possible but very stupid. But yes knowing Biden (who has a history of bad decision making) its very possible, and if true could really lead to his resignation. It also would explain the language of them speaking about the Taliban sometimes as "our partners".

I actually considered the possibility of rash orders etc. like him saying something like "I want those troops out of there I don't care how you do it!!" and "I don't want you engaging the enemy, don't antagonize them / just withdraw" as the Taliban advance.

There is a principle called "Hanon's law" that says something like "Never attribute to malice what might equally be done from stupidity."

There is so much that is wrong with that decision. Like the Taliban had already violated the Trump agreement in mid to late April, so he could have scrapped it, bombed them etc. and was not obligated to follow based on the details and conditions negotiated, it gave him an out to renegotiate if he wanted to. But yeah, that intuition of yours may be right! One of the sayings of Obama that was talked about late August 2020 was when discussing Biden's prospects of getting elected privately to a friend, Obama was overheard saying "Never underestimate Joe's ability to F things up."

 

[bèlla]

Well when I saw that one of my early thoughts were "Are they gifting that stuff to the Taliban in exchange for their continued good behavior?"

Gifting? Yes.
Good behavior? Nah.

No one in intelligence would ever believe they'd comply. The gift would be part of the agreement.

It also would explain the language of them speaking about the Taliban sometimes as "our partners".

Partners in crime.

There is a principle called "Hanon's law" that says something like never attribute to malice what might equally be done from stupidity.

Remember the slight of the hand. We've been distracted the last 4 years. Whenever a slant is that sizable you should wonder what's going on elsewhere. Deflections are part of the game and a frequent strategy.

One of the sayings of Obama that was talked about last August was when discussing Biden's prospects of getting elected (that looked good), Obama said "Never underestimate Joe's ability to F things up."

Everybody has a purpose. Maybe he's the scapegoat. This smells like Hannibal Smith.

 

[hislegacy]

What i know:

• Biden had many years of experience on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee
• Unlike his predecessor, his Cabinet is composed of experienced, capable people--not lobbyists and campaign contributors.
• He listens to his advisors. He reads his briefings.
• He brought his rosary in the situation room when Bin Laden was captured. He knows which side of the Bible is the top.

Maybe Biden does not want to promise what he can't guarantee.

Honesty after the nan of 20,000 + lies.

Thank you for your reply, while we disagree I appreciate you actually addressing the topic

Here is what I know:

• Mr Biden had a fully functioning secure airbase in Afghanistan in January
• That Airbase included:
  • 79,000 vehicles
  • 200 aircraft
  • 600,000 weapons from machine guns to howisters
• Mr Biden CHOSE not to use the equipment or the thousands of troops to rescue American citizens, but he CHOSE to abandon both equipment and citizens
• In the 7 plus months he has had situational control of Afghanistan he CHOSE not to utilize any of the tools he had at his discretion to aid the removal of our citizens.

Remember, the drawdown was not a surprise. The dates were not sudden.

Now, in his own words on national television he is receiving that all military will leave with American Citizens still there. The blood of our soldiers and civilians left behind because of his CHOICES is on his hands and is his responsibility alone.

That is abhorrent.

 

[Fantine]

Thank you for your reply, while we disagree I appreciate you actually addressing the topic

Here is what I know:

• Mr Biden had a fully functioning secure airbase in Afghanistan in January
• That Airbase included:
  • 79,000 vehicles
  • 200 aircraft
  • 600,000 weapons from machine guns to howisters
• Mr Biden CHOSE not to use the equipment or the thousands of troops to rescue American citizens, but he CHOSE to abandon both equipment and citizens
• In the 7 plus months he has had situational control of Afghanistan he CHOSE not to utilize any of the tools he had at his discretion to aid the removal of our citizens.

Remember, the drawdown was not a surprise. The dates were not sudden.

Now, in his own words on national television he is receiving that all military will leave with American Citizens still there. The blood of our soldiers and civilians left behind because of his CHOICES is on his hands and is his responsibility alone.

That is abhorrent.

If these American citizens knew what the drawdown dates would be, why did they choose to stay until the 11th hour? I can think of only two reasons...

Were they laboring under the same kinds of delusions the anti-vaxxers are here--that first of all, it violates their "freedom" and secondly that it won't happen to them?

Or perhaps they were mercenaries working for places like Blackstone (Betsy DeVos' brother's company).

If I lived somewhere where my days were numbered I would make my plans to leave before the evacuation date.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

If these American citizens knew what the drawdown dates would be, why did they choose to stay until the 11th hour? I can think of only two reasons...

Were they laboring under the same kinds of delusions the anti-vaxxers are here--that first of all, it violates their "freedom" and secondly that it won't happen to them?

Or perhaps they were mercenaries working for places like Blackstone (Betsy DeVos' brother's company).

If I lived somewhere where my days were numbered I would make my plans to leave before the evacuation date.

From what I can tell the Taliban Blitzkrieged across the land starting in April which was in violation of the original agreement. They did so tentatively at first sending out just a few probes here and there to see if there was any sign of air strikes etc. when they saw the coast was clear they basically stormed across Afghanistan in their trucks etc.

This all however was against official "US Intelligence estimates" that somehow estimated it would take at least 6 months for the Taliban to take over Afghanistan if the Kabul government collapsed and offered no resistance.


Anyway US citizens who were there doing aid or whatever found themselves behind enemy lines before they knew it.


‘Progress': More El Cajon Families Stranded in Afghanistan Now On Their Way Home to San Diego

 

[hislegacy]

If these American citizens knew what the drawdown dates would be, why did they choose to stay until the 11th hour? I can think of only two reasons...

Were they laboring under the same kinds of delusions the anti-vaxxers are here--that first of all, it violates their "freedom" and secondly that it won't happen to them?

Or perhaps they were mercenaries working for places like Blackstone (Betsy DeVos' brother's company).

If I lived somewhere where my days were numbered I would make my plans to leave before the evacuation date.

Or.... Maybe they put their faith in the President:

Maybe, just maybe they believed Joe Biden and thought they were safe.

 

[RDKirk]

2) The Generals deliberately lied the video talks about that.

I had some experience growing up on a military research base around age 4-6. But when I was very little the admiral in charge got mad at the civilians scientists that lived and worked there (He couldn't boss them around like he could Navy people). And he used base funds to have his own private cul-de-sac where no civilians lived and it was guarded by at least one military policeman at all times to keep civilians out. But after a few years of this someone said something to their state representative or someone in Washington and he got in trouble and got mad and kicked the civilians off the base and they went to live in the town that bordered the base. Anyway some people I think like to have their little fiefdoms etc. and that gets into things like budgets not wanting your budget cut from peace etc.

This is an absurd generalization. One experience with a chair-jockey support officer at a rear-echelon support base concerning base housing. Moreover, the facts of the story don't bear up to anyone who actually knows about base housing, particularly senior command housing.

And then that single questionable story is used to make a general statement about the character of multiple senior combat-experienced officers, and how they handle the very lives of thousands of troops on the battlefield.

It's an absurd generalization.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

This is an absurd generalization. One experience with a chair-jockey support officer at a rear-echelon support base concerning base housing. Moreover, the facts of the story don't bear up to anyone who actually knows about base housing, particularly senior command housing.

And then that single questionable story is used to make a general statement about the character of multiple senior combat-experienced officers, and how they handle the very lives of thousands of troops on the battlefield.

It's an absurd generalization.

OK your the man with all the experience give your ideas to Bella's question.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Go to time 9:44 listen to the President’s
Own words.

He has no plan on getting our citizens out of Afghanistan before leaving. They will be left as hostages.

He doesn't say that "He has no plan on getting our citizens out of Afghanistan before leaving. They will be left as hostages."

Why do you make claims that are false? Do you think we're not going to watch the video and find out that your claim is false?

 

[hislegacy]

He doesn't say that "He has no plan on getting our citizens out of Afghanistan before leaving. They will be left as hostages."

Why do you make claims that are false? Do you think we're not going to watch the video and find out that your claim is false?

Time stamp 9:41 - Direct verbatim quote from the President of the Untied States:

"We will complete our mission, we will continue AFTER OUR TROOPS HAVE WITHDRAWN to find means by which we can find any American who wishes to get out of Afghanistan"
​

That very plain supports my statement that he has no plans to get our citizens out of Afghanistan before leaving.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Perhaps those citizens reject federal tyranny and choose to exercise their freedom to stay?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Time stamp 9:41 - Direct verbatim quote from the President of the Untied States:

"We will complete our mission, we will continue AFTER OUR TROOPS HAVE WITHDRAWN to find means by which we can find any American who wishes to get out of Afghanistan"
​

That very plain supports my statement that he has no plans to get our citizens out of Afghanistan before leaving.

Where in that statement does he say "that he has no plans to get our citizens out of Afghanistan before leaving"??? He doesn't. Where does he say "They will be left as hostages"??? He doesn't.

If you want to speculate in your own mind that he believes that then at least present it as your speculation. You're quoting him and then trying to tell everyone that he means something other than what he actually said.

It's fine if you want to criticize and disagree with Biden but it's not fine to fabricate speculation and then expect everyone else to make the leap in logic from what he actually said to what you want to believe he was thinking or meant.

 

[RDKirk]

Time stamp 9:41 - Direct verbatim quote from the President of the Untied States:

"We will complete our mission, we will continue AFTER OUR TROOPS HAVE WITHDRAWN to find means by which we can find any American who wishes to get out of Afghanistan"
​

That very plain supports my statement that he has no plans to get our citizens out of Afghanistan before leaving.

What that means is that president realized that, Americans being Americans, a good many would choose to stay even after the troops had left. Keeping troops there until after all the Americans had left first would mean keeping the troops there forever.

 

[TLK Valentine]

What that means is that president realized that, Americans being Americans, a good many would choose to stay even after the troops had left. Keeping troops there until after all the Americans had left first would mean keeping the troops there forever.

In all honestly, any American in Afghanistan who hadn't read the writing on the wall by now isn't interested in being "rescued."

When the Administration invited the Taliban to negotiations at Camp David, of all places, "Get out of Dodge" should have flashed in their heads like a big neon sign.