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Biblical Stories that Support Evolutionary Science

Different kinds and species cannot interbreed.
Felines cannot interbreed with equines.
Canines cannot interbreed with Marsupials.


But all humans can interbreed regardless of outward apearances.
Pygmys can interbreed with Watusies.
Australian Aborigenis with Scandinavians.
Chinese with black Africans.
If they were different species no viable offspring could be produced.
That is the law of genetics God laid down and expresses in the book of Genesis. Animals would procreate only after their kind.
So all humanity is of one kind--human and descended from Noah's three sons, Japeth, Shem and Ham. 

 

Genesis 9
<I>The Sons of Noah </I>
<SUP>18</SUP> The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) <SUP>19</SUP> These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.

&nbsp;
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

I'd like to wade into this if I may. One of my favorite books is the late Carl Sagan's The Dragons of Eden. One of the most interesting chapters in it is entitled "Eden as Metaphor." In it, Dr. Sagan takes a metaphorical/allegorical view of the Creation account in Genesis & shows how it jibes at many points with general evolutionary theory.

Ferinstance...

The enmity that God decrees between the snake/serpent & Eve's descendants is a reference to the time when reptiles and mammals contended for domination of the earth.

God decrees that the snake would, henceforth, go on his belly. This implies that before God's decree, snakes had some other method of locomotion, i.e. legs. Not only did snakes evolve from lizard-like reptiles, but many species of snakes have vestigial hip/leg bones, isolated in their tissues, unconnected to their spines.

God decrees that childbirth would be painful for Eve & her descendants, after Eve had eaten the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil, i.e. after she/humanity had developed/evolved the ability to think in abstractions & make moral judgements, an ability that is unique to humanity. (Didn't John Locke say that, "The beast abstracts not"?). This ability, as far as neurologists know, resides in the brain's neocortex, which constitutes 5/6 of total brain mass, is the most recent part of the human brain & and is most developed in humans (although all mammals have some neocortex). Childbirth is (so I'm told) painful because of the passage of the head (and humans have the largest brains in proportion to their overall size), most of which is neocortex. Childbirth became painful for humans (and is generally painful only for humans) after the neo-cortex evolved to near its present size (I'm told that the fossil record documents an explosive, in evolutionary time scales, growth in the neo-cortex), i.e. only after we had developed the abilities to reason & make moral judegements, i.e. only after we ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil, which jibes perfectly with God's post-eating-of-the-fruit-decree that childbirth would henceforth be painful for us, which is a symbolic/metaphorical representation of this whole process. (Please don't try to diagram the previous sentence!)

Howzat?
_____

Below is excerpted from a post from this past July:

Please allow me, if I may, to offer my perspective as an orthodox Jew. The views expressed herein are mine alone. While I definitely believe that they are 100% compatible with normative (i.e. orthodox) Judaism, please do not take my post as expressing the orthodox Jewish view.

VOW posted:

I don't understand why evolution and creation MUST BE an either/or situation. I'm perfectly satisfied in my mind and in my heart with a composite origin, which borrows from both. I don't see why they have to mutually exclude each other.

I agree with VOW; well said!

Athlon4all posted:

VOW, it must be because first of all, believing in Evolution is rejecting the authority of the Word of God, and that will no doubt lead to questioning other parts of the Bible.

I do not agree; please let me explain why.

I have noticed that very many believers (Jewish and Christian) who object to, or disagree with, evolution do so because they believe that evolution does not jibe with a literal reading of the Book of Genesis. Let’s talk about "a literal reading of the Book of Genesis" for a second. I don’t think that any two people could agree on a "literal reading" of Genesis (certainly mine, as an orthodox Jew and based on the original Hebrew, will probably differ in many particulars from that of a fundamentalist Protestant, based on the KJV); such a thing is inherently subjective and based on our own idiosyncrasies, psychological/emotional/spiritual baggage and personal it-seems-to-me’s. Thus, we should be very leery of basing our arguments on a "literal reading" of Genesis. Those who do insist on a strict, narrow, "literal" interpretation of Genesis are, I believe, forcing it into a literary and spiritual strait-jacket entirely of their own devising that does no justice to the scriptures.

So, that being said, how do I – as an orthodox Jew – view Genesis? Well, of course, I believe that it (and the other 4 books of the Torah: Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) is the literal word of God as He revealed it to Moses our Teacher. We believe that the Torah can be understood/appreciated/interpreted on any of four general levels ranging from that which is most in accord with a close reading of the (original Hebrew!!!) text, to the metaphorical, to the most rarefied and esoteric (the grasp of which is waaay beyond most of us). Who is to say which chapter and verse of Genesis is to be best understood or appreciated on which level? Moreover, our Sages say that the Torah is like a diamond with many facets, each with its own brilliance, each offering a different perspective from which to behold the wondrous jewel.

I do not see why God could not have created His world and the life in it through and by the system we (as yet) imperfectly understand as "evolution". I do not see how the previous sentence violates anything I said in the previous paragraph or in how orthodox Jews appreciate the Torah.
_____

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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EPHRIAM777

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Originally posted by LadyShea
Eph...now you just have your fingers in your ears chanting "la la la I can't hear you cuz I have the truth". If you want to debate, post your sources and evidence to back up your claims. If you want to spew nonsense, go do it to someone gullible.


Eph replies...

It's ok to attack the messenger now..?

Because the message is upsetting...?

Yeah...I know it's tough....ya gotta have the ability to be able to think out of the BOX they have your mind packaged in...!

Oh and I've been just trippin over all your "sources" you include in your posts too...!

Who said that was necessary to post here..? You'll just attack the sources as being unworthy or ignorant... because your mind is SET..and it's defending something YOU always placed your FAITH in...Lady Shea..!

If it makes you happier....return to your slumber and don't read my postings...! Fair enough...?? ( as if I'm the entertainment around here 4U )..

The "ostrich" approach to scholarship works for some...NOT me...!



:sleep: :sleep: :sleep:
 
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EPHRIAM777

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Originally posted by Pete Harcoff


I see endless possibilities.


Eph wonders...

Hey is it just me...or does Pete sound like a "Robert Shuller" book of the month club subscriber...!

Possibilities...and Positive thinking...! LOL

Just kiddin Pete...calm down and keep yer shirt on will ya...!


:cool:
 
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EPHRIAM777

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Originally posted by Smilin

Well then... from one 'crackpot' to another 'crackpot', if the simple evidence and examples I gave to you are indeed false, then prove them wrong.. Else, stop the insenuations.


Eph writes...

Their YOUR examples...You defend them...You claim their simple evidences...not me...!

I don't have to prove them wrong...I'll allow YOU to prove them "right"...i'm not a bad guy..just prove what your saying thats all..

So have at it....!

When I give an example..I'll prove MY example..when YOU give an example..You prove yours..!

NOTE...be able to defend your position and not evade the challenges presented by me...thats all...!

Now thats "simple" enough for you correct...?

Maybe you missed "debate rules 101" ...while attending "science is my God and is always right indoctrination class 101"

LOL :)

Really for me this is all just a review....of "outdated" material on a subject that has been put to rest..again like the "flat earth" disciples of long ago...

EVO is a lie from hell...meant to place doubt in what God has said already..!

The gaping holes in it's "theory" are inexcusable to overlook...!
 
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EPHRIAM777

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Originally posted by Smilin [/i]
Actually,

I believe the racial diversifications among humans would be microevolution.&nbsp; Someone correct me if I'm wrong.&nbsp; Unless you'd consider the Africans, Asians, etc to be new species.


Eph says...

Let me pull that last post....

I don't think it was YOUR thinking...So an EDIT by me is in order
 
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JohnR7

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Originally posted by EPHRIAM777
I believe the racial diversifications among humans would be microevolution.&nbsp;&nbsp;


Right now there is only one race. There could have been more then one race in the past, but if there was they mated with each other to where science believes there is only one race today.

China does not agree, they are separatist. They believe they evolved from Peking man. But they do not have any evidence for this at all.
 
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LadyShea

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Eph, I haven't needed to provide any sources because I haven't made any claims. You have made claim after claim with not one source even after you have been repeatedly asked for citations.

"Attack the messenger"? What message am I attacking you for...you haven't PRESENTED anything, all you have done is make assertions with no basis...you are entitled to state your opinions of course, but please qualify them as opinions as you have also been asked to do.

You haven't challenged any of us, because it is not possible to debate opinions.

&nbsp;

Let's start with this claim you made in your first post in this thread which you have YET to back up.

The best Scientists are NOW distancing themselves from it because of breakthroughs in DNA and Genitic's...Your more apt to be struck by lightning 1 million times in a row AND then turn into a monkey..than you are to evolve into one...from anything else...!
Now, name&nbsp;a scientist (among the 'best" in their field) who is distancing themselves from Evolutionary theory. Name your source for this amazing statistic you have mentioned.
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by Jahservant
............
But all humans can interbreed regardless of outward apearances.
Pygmys can interbreed with Watusies.
Australian Aborigenis with Scandinavians.
Chinese with black Africans.
If they were different species no viable offspring could be produced.
That is the law of genetics God laid down and expresses in the book of Genesis. Animals would procreate only after their kind.
So all humanity is of one kind--human and descended from Noah's three sons, Japeth, Shem and Ham.&nbsp;&nbsp;

You've concluded that all of the human race descended from Noah's three sons, yet you've avoided my assertion.&nbsp; I agree with your point that interbreeding occurs within a species... yet I'm interested in your comments on my original assertion...

Once again I assert that only evolution can explain racial diversity among the human race.

If you conclude all humanity descended from Noah's three son's, then only evolution can explain the racial diversities.&nbsp; Do you agree or disagree and why?

I like your addition of 'interbreeding among species' to the discussion, but I'm interested in your personal response on my assertions and the thread topic.

Many Regards,

Smilin
 
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Smilin

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To SSV,

Greetings to you my good friend and thanks for your input. It is always welcomed. First off, may peace finally reign in your region.

Now to the topic at hand. I appreciate your viewpoint as an Orthodox Jew. I agree with your points on how other's read and interpret the Genesis story. IMO, all should take the time to experience how those of different faiths read/interpret the book.

To add to your statements, I would like to add a view that Pete Harcroff made just recently. I think it important to remember that Genesis and the other Hebrew books were written in the context & culture of that particular time. How we read/interpret the creation story in Genesis certainly differs how the Hebrews of that particular time read/interpretted it. The History Channel here in the U.S. had a very interesting piece on this very subject last night... (thus my late night TV viewing...and draggin in late to work still half-asleep) lol

Thanks again for you input my friend, and I look forward to your viewpoint as we proceed.

Many Regards,
Smilin
 
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Smilin

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Smilin

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Originally posted by EPHRIAM777
[BHey wolfy....LOL....some of us DO have jobs that require us to work thru the holidays...! [/B]

lol... there's one I haven't been called yet...lol

Yes, as well as I.&nbsp; It hasn't been pleasant either (working through the holidays) but such is life.. now back to our previously aired programming....

Smilin :D

errr.... I hope you weren't insenuating I don't work... pssttt...(check my profile...I checked yours...lol)
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by EPHRIAM777
Originally posted by Smilin

Well then... from one 'crackpot' to another 'crackpot', if the simple evidence and examples I gave to you are indeed false, then prove them wrong.. Else, stop the insenuations.


Eph writes...

Their YOUR examples...You defend them...You claim their simple evidences...not me...!

I don't have to prove them wrong...I'll allow YOU to prove them "right"...i'm not a bad guy..just prove what your saying thats all..

So have at it....!

When I give an example..I'll prove MY example..when YOU give an example..You prove yours..!

NOTE...be able to defend your position and not evade the challenges presented by me...thats all...!

Now thats "simple" enough for you correct...?

Maybe you missed "debate rules 101" ...while attending "science is my God and is always right indoctrination class 101"

LOL :)

Really for me this is all just a review....of "outdated" material on a subject that has been put to rest..again like the "flat earth" disciples of long ago...

EVO is a lie from hell...meant to place doubt in what God has said already..!

The gaping holes in it's "theory" are inexcusable to overlook...!

Eph:

1. Please take time to learn the QUOTE commands, your posts are hard to read, and respond to.&nbsp; A simple, polite request.

2.&nbsp;okay... are you gonna force me to drudge back through all your claims..(that we've consistently asked for sources/proofs of with) with only silence for you?&nbsp; For example... list your scientists we've asked for a number of times.&nbsp; Else conced you're merely stating an opinion and not facts.

3.&nbsp;No branch of science seeks to place doubt in any religion.&nbsp; Why can't you accept this fact?

4. List your gaping holes in the TOE.&nbsp; You made that claim, now back it up... or concede.

5.&nbsp;For my assertion that Evolution can only explain the diversity of the human race.... read this article, and comment as you see fit:

http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/realeve/feature/feature.html

There's the first of my evidence.&nbsp; BTW, I must refocus you on the topic of my thread.&nbsp; I made assertions (yes) and asked for other explanations other than the TOE.&nbsp; So, yes, participation in this debate does require you to prove me wrong or offer your own opinions for another explanation.

BTW, Debate 101 isn't a college course (that I'm aware of).&nbsp; And in my particular major, I took no courses concerning God.&nbsp; However I do hold a minor in Theology... FYI.

Many Regards,

Smilin
 
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The Thadman

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Originally posted by Smilin
We'll begin with the question: "How do you explain all the different races of humans without accepting evolution?"

Different human races are due to speciation, not Evolution (with a capital E).

Speciation ("Micro" evolution) is: When a human and a human have a child, the result will always be a human but have a combination of the genetic traits of it's mother and father. Same thing with all of the different breeds of dog, they're all genetically compatible.

Evolution ("Macro" evolution) is: When a human and a human have a child, somewhere down the line the result will not be a human and not be able to reproduce with humans, sharing different genetic material than its species.

It is statistically viable that all genetic material that humans contain now could have come from a single man and single woman, let alone Noah and his entire family. Human genetic variance expresses itself greater than most animals, too :) (For example, monkeys have a MUCH wider range of genetic variance than humans do, but their outwards appearance does not express it as much).

Everything according to it's kind, a human will beget a human, will beget a human. :)

EDIT: ('Added what is below)

Speciation (micro) is science, repeatable and observable :)

Evolution (macro) is a theory, unobservable, unrepeatable, speculation, and extrapolation. :)

Shlomo! (Peace!)
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by JohnR7
Right now there is only one race.

Only one race? What do you mean exactly?&nbsp; Haven't you noticed all the different categories under the 'Race' classification part of any job application?
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by The Thadman
Different human races are due to speciation, not Evolution (with a capital E).

Speciation ("Micro" evolution) is: When a human and a human have a child, the result will always be a human but have a combination of the genetic traits of it's mother and father. Same thing with all of the different breeds of dog, they're all genetically compatible.

Evolution ("Macro" evolution) is: When a human and a human have a child, somewhere down the line the result will not be a human and not be able to reproduce with humans, sharing different genetic material than its species.

It is statistically viable that all genetic material that humans contain now could have come from a single man and single woman, let alone Noah and his entire family. Human genetic variance expresses itself greater than most animals, too :) (For example, monkeys have a MUCH wider range of genetic variance than humans do, but their outwards appearance does not express it as much).

Everything according to it's kind, a human will beget a human, will beget a human. :)

EDIT: ('Added what is below)

Speciation (micro) is science, repeatable and observable :)

Evolution (macro) is a theory, unobservable, unrepeatable, speculation, and extrapolation. :)

Shlomo! (Peace!)

Okay,

You've contradicted yourself.&nbsp; Speciation is part of Evolution.&nbsp; Microevolution is part of Evolution.&nbsp; And you've agreed (without realizing it) that racial diversification is explained by Evolution, particularly MicroEvolution.&nbsp; I think where your confusion lies is within the different areas of the TOE.&nbsp; Evolution is the&nbsp;general branch of the Science.&nbsp; Speciation is a particular area of the science.&nbsp; Just as Biology is a general branch of science, Marine Biology is a specific area of Biology.

But, you've agreed with me.... :)
 
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The Thadman

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Originally posted by Smilin
You've contradicted yourself.&nbsp; Speciation is part of Evolution.&nbsp; Microevolution is part of Evolution.&nbsp; And you've agreed (without realizing it) that racial diversification is explained by Evolution, particularly MicroEvolution.&nbsp; I think where your confusion lies is within the different areas of the TOE.&nbsp; Evolution is the&nbsp;general branch of the Science.&nbsp; Speciation is a particular area of the science.&nbsp; Just as Biology is a general branch of science, Marine Biology is a specific area of Biology.

Well, then you've won by a logical fallacy entitled "Equivocation" my friend :) In your initial post you said "How do you explain all the different races of humans without accepting evolution?"

I was careful to define my terms before I said anything, because you did not define what "Evoltution" was in your initial post, and with my definitions, no I don't agree. :)

If you had said that "Speciation" was part of the branch of "Science" called "Evolution," than I would have :) Instead, from what I've laid down, it's a part, but not the whole :)

Simply because I accept a -PART- of something, does not mean that I accept the whole branch. That would suggest that this part has all of the characteristics of the whole, which is another logical fallacy.

Shlomo! (Peace!)
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by The Thadman
Well, then you've won by a logical fallacy entitled "Equivocation" my friend :) In your initial post you said "How do you explain all the different races of humans without accepting evolution?"

I was careful to define my terms before I said anything, because you did not define what "Evoltution" was in your initial post, and with my definitions, no I don't agree. :)

If you had said that "Speciation" was part of the branch of "Science" called "Evolution," than I would have :) Instead, from what I've laid down, it's a part, but not the whole :)

Simply because I accept a -PART- of something, does not mean that I accept the whole branch. That would suggest that this part has all of the characteristics of the whole, which is another logical fallacy.

Shlomo! (Peace!)

So you make a distinction between 'Evolution' and 'Evolutionary Science' then? This is a fallacy. They're both one in the same.

You presented an explanation for the different races by speciation, I simply pointed out that speciation is a part of Evolution. How is this a logical fallicy?????

As far as theories go, it is true to say their is no general consensus. Many draw different conclusions from the scientific evidence presented.
 
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The Thadman

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Originally posted by Smilin
So you make a distinction between 'Evolution' and 'Evolutionary Science' then? This is a fallacy. They're both one in the same.

It's not a fallacy :) You didn't define your terms when you popped the question. I did :) In order for me to agree, you had to re-define my terms. (ie I did not define "Evolution" and "Evolutionary Science" as the same thing.) Equivocation :)

You should be more careful on how you ask questions. :)

Originally posted by Smilin
You presented an explanation for the different races by speciation, I simply pointed out that speciation is a part of Evolution. How is this a logical fallicy?????

See above :)

I agree that speciation is what is accountable for the different types of human.

I do not believe that speciation can be extrapolated to the entire Theory of Evolution.

So, yes I do think it can be explained by "Evolutionary Science," and that part of "Evolutionary Science" is well within the bounds of what the Bible laid down :)

Originally posted by Smilin
As far as theories go, it is true to say their is no general consensus. Many draw different conclusions from the scientific evidence presented.

Well, you know my consensus now :)

Shlomo! (Peace!)
 
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