Biblical examples of people who lost their salvation

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Dear Michelle,

I understand why you believe 2nd peter the way you do and i don't think you have any desire to boast on yourself. I am not trying to accuse you of being a boaster, but I am trying to get you to see that the doctrine you espouse has no cgoice but to say that the reason you will make it to heaven and others not is because of what YOU have done with Jesus and not what JESUS has done for you.

According to what I seem to know what you believe, Jesus did for all men the same, so that the reason any person gets saved is because of what they do with Jesus. And although I agree to some extent, I believe that why we chose Jesus has to do with God's revelation of the truth of the cross to our hearts that He doesn't reveal to all men.

Likewise once we are saved [the cross deals with all of our sin, past present and future] our sin is dealt with and paid for and is no longer a factor in whether we stay children of God.

But if Jesus does the same for all men, then the difference is in the person, not tha savior. Your boast is in yourself and not in Christ, for what did He do different to save you then those already in hell?

Boast only in the cross of our Lord,
mike
 
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Miss Shelby

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Originally posted by mjwhite Dear Michelle,


According to what I seem to know what you believe, Jesus did for all men the same, so that the reason any person gets saved is because of what they do with Jesus. And although I agree to some extent, I believe that why we chose Jesus has to do with God's revelation of the truth of the cross to our hearts that He doesn't reveal to all men.

Dear Mike,

Yes I believe that Christ died for all men and that all men will have the opportunity to be reconciled to Him.  For the record I believe that God is 100 percent responsible for saving us... but at the same time I believe that we are 100 percent responsible in remaining and abiding in Him.    I don't see it any other way.

Thanks for the pleasant conversation...God's blessings to you.

Michelle
 
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Ben johnson

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Jesus is clearly stating that Judas was never chosen.
Not true---Jesus says, "You will not now go away too, WILL you?" (The Greek here uses the "me" {pronounced "may"} form of negative question, which expects "NO" in answer). Yet the possibility of them leaving is represented in Peter's answer: "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Messiah." Jesus answered them, "Yes, but I chose you the TWELVE, and ONE of you is a devil..."

Jesus chose the twelve---Jesus chose Judas. Judas forsook Jesus and betrayed Him.

You say, "Judas was never chosen". Jesus said that He CHOSE Judas...

There is no way to deny this...
Jesus also says "My sheep hear my voice".
WHY are they His sheep? Because of God's choice, or because of their OWN? There is an answer in the Bible: "I am the DOOR. If ANYONE enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture." Jn10:9  TIS---anyone. They-who-believe, not they-whom-God-has-chosen...
He also says you have not chosen me but I have chosen you.
John15:16. And yet, in the same exact chapter, verse 6: "If anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries ...and is cast into the fire." Which is it---are we CHOSEN TO SALVATION, or do we BELIEVE BY OURSELVES? The Bible does answer. First, "faith-unto-salvation" is NOT "Divinely-installed". Romans 10:17 (and 10:10) undeniably state that "faith-to-salvation comes by HEARING. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation." What does "you did not choose ME but I chose you" mean? Salvation is by faith---OUR OWN faith. "Receiving as the outcome of YOUR faith the salvation of your souls" (1Pet1:9). In Matt22 is the parable about "the kingdom of God is LIKE a wedding feast". ALL ended up being invited; but only those who CAME, and clothed themselves with righteousness became the chosen. "For MANY are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN". What could this conclusion of the parable possibly mean? Only one thing: that some called are not chosen. How then can we be PREDESTINED? God's WILL (boulema, decree) certainly cannot be thwarted---if we are predestined, then all CALLED will be saved.

All are called (Jn12:32---"Called", "helkuo-dragged"---exact same word as in Jn6:44).  Some believe, some do not.  Why do some NOT believe?  Because they do not WANT to!  (Jn8:43-44)

"And this is the WILL (thelema, desire) of God, that EVERYONE who beholds the Son, AND BELIEVES in Him, may have eternal life.  And I (Jesus) will raise him up the last day."  Jn6:40

First we establish that it is OUR BELIEF that saves us---the consequence of our hearts conviction on hearing the Gospel. (See Eph1:13---"Hearing, believing, then receiving the seal of the Holy Spirit"---in that order!) Then we correctly understand that it is HIS CHOOSING that saves us, because every bit of our salvation was done by Him on the CROSS---but the CHOSEN are they who RECEIVE CHRIST. Now look at 2Thess2:13: "...God has chosen you from the beginning, through sanctification by the Spirit and through faith in the truth". So you understand? It is all founded upon our BELIEF! He did not "install saving-belief", belief comes from HEARING! And it is through BELIEF (along with sanctification by the Spirit) that we are CHOSEN!!!!!

It is not "unilateral" at all---we who are saved, we who are CHOSEN, are we who BELIEVE!
Look at 1John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. verse 10 says, This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the Devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
And yet, in chapter 1 of the SAME LETTER, John writes: "If we say we haved no sin we LIE and the truth is not IN us!" James very plainly to SAVED CHRISTIANS, the warning about perseverence under trial. And the reality that temptation by lust can conceive sin, and sin brings DEATH. Or did he not really MEAN "death"? Yes he did. (Jms1:12-15)
This is another verse that shows that a true believer is secure because they are born of God and His seed remains in him: and that one who is not born of God but may have followed for a time looking for what they can get out of this religion will always show whose child they really are even if it's not until Jesus says depart from me I never knew you.
We're not allowed to write into Scripture what we want it to say. Salvation is ABIDING IN GOD---if we ABIDE NOT, then we are CUT OFF AND BURNED. 1Jn3 supports this: "No one who abides in Him sins..." Salvation is FELLOWSHIP, SURRENDER, ABIDING-IN-HIM.

"Whoever confesses Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. ...the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in Him." 1Jn4:15-16

KEEP YOURSELVES in the LOVE OF GOD, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ! (Jd21)

Abiding is a choice, daily---while we have breath...

"WATCH YOURSELVES, that you do not LOSE what you have gained; for anyone who goes too FAR and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, HAS NOT GOD!" 2Jn1:8-9 Very clear, unmistakable...
If you read the whole chapter of 2nd Peter 2 you will see that these people are desribed as thus:

as false teachers
introducers of destructive heresies
deniers of the Master
followers of sensuality
greedy
liars
deniers of authority
daring and self-willed
revilers of angelic majesties
stains and blemishes
revelers in deceptioms
eyes full of adultery
NEVER CEASING FROM SIN
enticers of unstable minds
accursed children
followers of the way of Balaam
lovers of the wages of unrighteousness
springs without water
mists without storms
people for whom black darkness has been reserved
arrogant flatters
slaves of corruption
In 2Peter chapter 2, are false teachers/prophets. They are NEVER saved, they NEVER cease from sin, they are SLAVES TO CORRUPTION. These horrible degenerates, entice unstable souls (verse 14). They entice by fleshly desires and by arrogant words of vanity and sensuality, those who ONTOS-APOPHEUGO-TRULY-ESCAPE from THEY-WHO-LIVE-IN-ERROR!  Verse 18

Do you understand now? Peter is talking about TWO GROUPS OF PEOPLE---the FALSE TEACHERS/PROPHETS, and he is talking about THE TRULY ESCAPED.

There are two choices here: the second, is to engage in EISEGESIS, rewriting Scripture to fit preconcieved belief---in taking the TRULY ESCAPED as NEVER-EVER-SAVED.

The first choice, is "Exegesis", correctly reading Scripture as it is written. In 2:1:1-4, are US who are of the SAME FAITH as PETER---we who have apopheugo-escaped the world's corruption through the EPIGNOSIS-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST". Then, in almost the same breath, there is chapter 2---first the description of the FALSE, who seek to entice the TRUE. Followed IMMEDIATELY with: "For IF, after having APOPHEUGO-ESCAPED the defilements of the world through the EPIGNOSIS-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST..."

The "escapees" in chapter 2, absolutely are the TRULY ESCAPED that are being ENTICED by the FALSE. They are described word-for-word-the-same as the escapees in chapter 1! If those in chapter ONE are saved (and they undeniably are), there is NO WAY to contend those in chapter 2 were NOT saved! We are required to honestly accept what Scripture SAYS---and it says they WERE SAVED!!!

Yet, they are "AGAIN ENTANGLED in the defilements and overcome; the LAST state is worse than the first." Their FIRST state, was BEFORE they escaped through the saved-knowledge of Jesus. Their SECOND state was SAVED. Their LAST state is WORSE than BEFORE THEY WERE SAVED. They WERE "dogs and sows" (called this by virtue of the vomit/mire in which they dwelt, BEFORE they were SAVED). Their SECOND state was SHEEP!!!!! And their LAST state, is epistrepho-ek-TURNED-AWAY from the Holy Commandment, and epistrepho-epi/eis returned-TO/UNTO the vomit/mire.

Eisegesis says "they were never saved", or "they never lost salvation". Exegesis recognizes they LOST SALVATION. Exegesis is honest, eisegesis is not...

The WHOLE GOSPEL, supports CHOICE---from start to finish.  Read Deuteronomy 30:15---"I have set before you life and prosperity, and death and adversity; life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose LIFE"  Rev22:17 says, "Let O THELO HE THAT WILLS take the water of life FREELY"...

:wave: Ben waves to Miss Shelby! Good posts!

:D
 
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Dear Ben,

I agree with this interp:

In 2Peter chapter 2, are false teachers/prophets. They are NEVER saved, they NEVER cease from sin, they are SLAVES TO CORRUPTION. These horrible degenerates, entice unstable souls (verse 14). They entice by fleshly desires and by arrogant words of vanity and sensuality, those who ONTOS-APOPHEUGO-TRULY-ESCAPE from THEY-WHO-LIVE-IN-ERROR!


But I do not think that there is two types of people in mind as you do. The subject of the writing never changes from the beginning of the chapter. They who entice by the flesh are the same as they who seem to have escaped it by becoming [it seems but falsely so] christians. The fact that they seem to be christians is made evident by the begining verses in the chapter. The false teachers are "among" the people, and from this inside confidence are able to "secretly" introduce destructive doctrines.

They therefore seem to be of the people but they are not. As Jude says about these very same people, they are "without fruit, twice dead", and "these be they that divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and have have not the Spirit."

A plain reading of chapter 2 will show you that these people are the subject Peter is teaching us about throughout the whole chapter. The fact that he uses the same words to describe how we see them as the same as he uses to describe who he is writting to does not negate the unity of his message that permeates throughout the whole chapter. These people who seem to be as ONE with the rest ARE NOT. They are corrupt and still the sin-loving pigs they always were.

He is trying to get across to the sheep that the wolves seem like fellow sheep, and seem to have escaped the corruption of the world, but they have never been changed and are still the same inside as the always were. They had to go through the motions of being saved otherwise they would not be accepted as fellow sheep. hving decieved the people as to their true nature, they start introducing heresies into the church. But Peter is telling us that they never stopped being sin-loving pigs.

In Jesus alone,
mike
 
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Dear Michelle,

you said,
Dear Mike,

Yes I believe that Christ died for all men and that all men will have the opportunity to be reconciled to Him. For the record I believe that God is 100 percent responsible for saving us... but at the same time I believe that we are 100 percent responsible in remaining and abiding in Him. I don't see it any other way.


So your boast is 100% in God and 100% in yourself?

Hmmm,
The Word tells us to boast ONLY in the cross of the Lord. I take that to mean that it is because He and His work is the only true boast we can make.

Why do you see it differently?

In Christ,
mike
 
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Dear Ben,

Judas wasn't chosen for eternal life. He was chosen to be of the twelve so that the scripture might be fulfilled.

To use this verse about judas [that those chosen by Jesus could go to hell] as you are, misinterprets the doctrine of election. Judas wasn't chosen to be one of the sheep. He was chosen to be a betrayer. He wasn't chosen to eternal life. Those that Jesus chooses for eternal life are saved by God. Those not saved by God weren't chosen for eternal life. It is by grace we are saved. Since it is by grace via the work[choice] of Christ, it can't be by our work [choice]. A choice isn't a choice until you act on it. Until then it is just a thought. A choice acted upon is a work. we are not saved by our work [choice] but by the work of God [His choice of us, His work of dying for His sheep] That is why His sheep will hear Him and know His voice. He has taught us of Him and of His love as demonstrated by the cross.

In Jesus alone,
mike
 
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Miss Shelby

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Dear Mike,

I don't understand why you are accusing me of holding to a works based salvation. Let's forget for a moment that faith comes by *hearing* the word, (which is a work) and by *believing* on Him (which is a work)--so technically we are all guilty of it if you look at it that way.  

Because it  just so happens that I believe we are saved by grace through faith so you may accuse me of boasting in myself all the live the long day if you want to. Fine by me.

Now about Judas. He was one of the twelve apostles given to Jesus from Father and he was initally a true believer for Jesus gave him the power and the authority to cast out demons in His name. If Judas would have been a child of the devil from the get-go he would not have been able to do that because Jesus said in Matthew chapeter 12:26 'If Satan drives out Satan , he is divided agains himself, how then can his kingdom stand?"

Michelle

P.S. Ben johnson---:) hello my friend. I'm so happy that you're here.
 
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Ben johnson

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But I do not think that there is two types of people in mind as you do. The subject of the writing never changes from the beginning of the chapter. They who entice by the flesh are the same as they who seem to have escaped it by becoming [it seems but falsely so] christians. The fact that they seem to be christians is made evident by the begining verses in the chapter. The false teachers are "among" the people, and from this inside confidence are able to "secretly" introduce destructive doctrines.
I do not think I will be able to "reach" you---for you do not dispute me, you deny Scripture itself. You cannot ignore that verse 18 states "the FALSE seek to entice the TRUE"---(there is the argument that less-credible Greek texts use "oligos", "barely", while the more accepted Greek uses "ontos" "truly"---nevertheless all agree they were escaped). Yet you cling to the idea that "the FALSE, who NEVER CEASE FROM SIN, who are SLAVES TO SIN, ESCAPE the defilements, but-not-really, they only APPEAR to escape, they must be CONVINCING SOMEONE they are escaped but they still practice WICKEDNESS, they still delight in corruption and unrighteousness but SOMEHOW APPEAR to be SAVED, deceiving other BELIEVERS...

You believe this, denying the words of "truly-escaped" (the word is "APOPHEUGO-ESCAPED", not "SEEMINGLY escaped"), denying "epignosis-saved-knowledge of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST" (you reject the reality that EPIGNOSIS is NEVER used with UNSAVED people, it is EXPERIENTIAL knowledge!)---you accept that these same exact words, when used in chapter 1 mean SAVED but stubbornly proclaim that these very words in chapter 2 mean not only UNSAVED but HORRIBLE DEGENERATES!!!!!

I am stumped---what can I say to convince you? Nothing. Scripture is my power---and you deny the words inspired by God; I have nothing left.

They "epistrepho-ek" turned AWAY FROM the Holy Commandment---yet they didn't REALLY because they never BELONGED. Peter was only being OBTUSE. Can you not see that you have PRECONCEPTION that twists Scripture to try to FIT? Rather than YOUR ideas conforming to Scripture? Nope, you cannot. Scripture does not convince you, neither will my words...

First you say "Judas wasn't CHOSEN"---I show you that JESUS SAID Judas was CHOSEN.  Then you say, "Well, he wasn't really chosen, only apparently; he never really believed.  You don't know that---Jesus chose the 11 who did believe, and Judas was chosen EXACTLY AS THE OTHER ELEVEN WERE.  It really seems that Judas, REJECTED JESUS!  The ONLY REASON you cling to saying "Judas DIDN'T REALLY BELIEVE", is not because of Scripture, but because it would contradict your preconcieved predestined-THEOLOGY...

To use this verse about judas [that those chosen by Jesus could go to hell] as you are, misinterprets the doctrine of election.No, I don't "MISINTERPRET THE DOCTRINE OF ELECTION", I refute it, plainly---with Scripture...

 Judas wasn't chosen to be one of the sheep. Yes he was. He was chosen to be a betrayer. No he wasn't. He wasn't chosen to eternal life. Yes he was.

You must conform to Scripture---Jesus said, "Are YOU going to leave TOO?"  Peter answered, "No, of COURSE not; we believe and KNOW that You are the Messiah!"  And Jesus said, "But I chose ALL TWELVE of you, and yet one of you DID leave, one became a devil!"  Doesn't matter if you don't like what is written, it still is written.  Jesus CHOSE the twelve, ALL OF THEM, and one of them DID GO AWAY.  Jesus asked if THEY would go away, then He said "one of you DID go away".  The only possible meaning for Jn6:70, IN CONTEXT, is that it is possible for a CHOSEN ONE to GO AWAY...

You pull verses outta context---"I do not speak of all of you, I know the ones I have chosen..." But if you would deign to read two verses further, you would read: "Truly I say to you, that he who receives whoever I send receives Me, and whoever receives Me RECEIVES HIM WHO SENT ME". Where is the election? WHOEVER, Mike. Whoever receives.

"Let WHOSOEVER WILL drink of the water of life freely..."

"God has chosen you from the beginning through (your) faith"...

"For many are called, but few are chosen"---only those who RECEIVE the invitation (meaning they COME), AND clothe themselves with God's' righteousness, only THEY become the chosen...

"But as many as RECEIVED HIM, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name"...

"Why do you not understand My (Jesus') words? It is because you cannot hear. You are of your father the devil, and you WANT to do his evil desires."

"If TIS-ANYONE enters through Me (the DOOR), he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture..." Anyone who enters, becomes His sheep...

Not my words, Scripture. Scripture cannot convince you, I cannot convince you. No one can receive anything before he or she is ready to receive it. The best I can do, is to love you, and to pray for you.

And I will pray for you, with all my heart...
 
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LouisBooth

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"*hearing* the word, (which is a work) and by *believing* on Him (which is a work)--so technically we are all guilty of it if you look at it that way. "

Nope. those aren't works as paul clearly shows in Galatians. :)

Ben, no matter how creatively you try to interpret the bible, it just doesn't state that you have to have works to be saved. Its faith alone, always was and always will be. What condemns you? Not believing, that's it.
 
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Miss Shelby

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Louis Booth,

I simply cannot fathom the idea that God would give us a doctrine that would have the potential to lull so many people into a false sense of security.

Why would He do that? Why would He say that as long as you believe in Jesus and profess your faith at one singlular moment in time, then you're in like Flynn? According to this doctrine a person can actually serve God's enemy, the devil, promote the kingdom  of the netherworld and still be rewarded for their rebellion upon completion of their earthly lives.

I'm sure many souls have landed in hell because they believed this, even believing that Jesus was their Saviour.

Michelle
 
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LouisBooth

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"I simply cannot fathom the idea that God would give us a doctrine that would have the potential to lull so many people into a false sense of security.
"

Hmm...I think you're not reading the scriptures then. Do you think God saying nothing can seperate us from his love is a false sence of security? Him saying none can take us from his hand is a false sence of security. No, of course not. Its to show us that there is NOTHING we can do to stop grace from covering us. If that was so it wouldn't be grace.

"Why would He say that as long as you believe in Jesus and profess your faith at one singlular moment in time, then you're in like Flynn? "

In a word, Love, the agape kind. If its real believe, yup, you're in like flynn.

Nope, people landed in hell because they believed works would do it. How did they react in the bible? Did they say, I truely believed in you and loved you in the relationship. Nope, they relied on works, but hey..we did this and this..and what did he say, "depart from me, I NEVER knew you."
 
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Miss Shelby

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Originally posted by LouisBooth 


Hmm...I think you're not reading the scriptures then. Do you think God saying nothing can seperate us from his love is a false sence of security?

He loved us before we were saved, didn't He?  He loves the unsaved, doesn't He?

 Him saying none can take us from his hand is a false sence of security.

Louis, what He said was my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they shall never perish and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.  Here he states rather absolutely that no one shall snatch the believer out of the hand of the Father or the Son.  Not even the believer himself.   Yet this promise is actually conditional.  It depends on the sheep hearing and following the Good Shepherd.

Both verbs are in the ongoing present tense so what Jesus is saying is that if his sheep hear and continue to hear and follow and continue to follow then they are  assured of eternal life.   This implies believing and obeying.

Grace would be cheapened if it was supposed to cover deliberate disobedience.

Michelle
 
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LouisBooth

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"He loved us before we were saved, didn't He? He loves the unsaved, doesn't He?"

If you look in the verse it is talking about a love for a saved person. :)

"Here he states rather absolutely that no one shall snatch the believer out of the hand of the Father or the Son"

Exactly, not even themselves. NO ONE.

"Grace would be cheapened if it was supposed to cover deliberate disobedience."

Seems sad that you believe that. So if you sin right before you die, you're not covered by Grace or if you commit sucide you're not covered their either..how sad.
 
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Ben johnson

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He loved us before we were saved, didn't He? He loves the unsaved, doesn't He?
"But God demonstrates His love for us, in that while we were YET sinners, Christ died for us." Yet sinners, unsaved. Rom5:8

;) @ Michelle...
Nope. those aren't works as paul clearly shows in Galatians.

Ben, no matter how creatively you try to interpret the bible, it just doesn't state that you have to have works to be saved. Its faith alone, always was and always will be. What condemns you? Not believing, that's it.
Goodness, Louis---I don't know what to say---we agree perfectly...

;)

The WORK OF GOD is that we believe in Jesus. Jn6:29 It is NOT our work, it never WAS our work, it never will BE our work. It is GOD'S work. We seem to be able to choose to receive it, though...

Works do not save us. Works are not required for salvation. Works have no part in our eternal life.

...and yet, Jesus HIMSELF said: "No good tree can produce bad fruit, no bad tree can produce good. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. So then, YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS..." Jn7:18-20

And James says, "What use is it if a man says he has faith but has no works? That faith can NOT save him, CAN it?!" ("me dunamai", is-not-able-to, expects an answer of only "NO".) 2:14

I think Jesus, and James, meant what they said.

So then, works are not part of our salvation. But, salvation being CHRIST-IN-US, it is JESUS who does the good works THROUGH us. See Philip2:12-13.
"Here he states rather absolutely that no one shall snatch the believer out of the hand of the Father or the Son"

Exactly, not even themselves. NO ONE
Please show me how it says, "NOT EVEN THEMSELVES". Understanding that "SNATCH" here is "HARPAZO", which means "seize-or-remove-FORCIBLY". And John, who PENNED that verse, turns around and says in 2Jn, "there are many deceivers in the world---so WATCH YOURSELVES, that you not lose what you have accomplished, but may receive full reward; whoever GOES too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God." Empty words? Or a real warning?

:)
 
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Ben johnson

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Ben, no matter how creatively you try to interpret the bible, it just doesn't state that you have to have works to be saved.
I'm curious, Louis, as to why you would say this? Ben never said "you hafta have works to be saved". Michelle never said that. Neither Mike said that. In fact, I don't think ANYONE said that. And no one I know believes it.

Why would you suddenly jump topic and address that-which-was-never-said, and is not believed by anyone???
 
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LouisBooth

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"Please show me how it says, "NOT EVEN THEMSELVES""

Nothing can seperate you from God. that's what the verse says, NOTHING can, this includes yourself. Also in romans paul very clearly states that God's gifts are irrevocable. Sorry, once you're saved you can't loose it :)

"So then, YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS..." "

Agreed, but that doesn't say you can loose your salvation. He he is refering corperatly, not individually. the church as a whole does good works, even when you don't. so we see yet again, you're rationalizing to prove you point ;)

"I think Jesus, and James, meant what they said."

i agree, the problem is that neither of them said you can loose your salvation.
 
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Dear Michelle,

You said,
I don't understand why you are accusing me of holding to a works based salvation. Let's forget for a moment that faith comes by *hearing* the word, (which is a work) and by *believing* on Him (which is a work)--so technically we are all guilty of it if you look at it that way.

Hearing isn’t a work. If you are in a room and someone speaks loudly enough, you will hear them. Believing is not a work either. If you make it a work, than feel free to boast on yourself for choosing to believe. But faith comes by hearing and hearing isn’t a work, so how would one think faith is a work. You didn’t choose to believe on Jesus, you chose to act on that belief.

Let me ask you this: If you chose to believe in Jesus, what were your reasons?

Then you said:
Because it just so happens that I believe we are saved by grace through faith so you may accuse me of boasting in myself all the live the long day if you want to. Fine by me.


I didn’t accuse you of boasting in that, you must have misunderstood me. I said that our boast [in salvation] is only on the Lord Jesus because ONLY He is responsible for our salvation, for after all, He is the Savior, isn’t He? But you said that your salvation was 100% God and 100% you. Even if you said that your salvation was 99.99% God and just .01% you my question would be the same to you. If our boast is only supposed to be in the Lord, why do you also boast in yourself?

Then you: Now about Judas. He was one of the twelve apostles given to Jesus from Father and he was initally a true believer for Jesus gave him the power and the authority to cast out demons in His name. If Judas would have been a child of the devil from the get-go he would not have been able to do that because Jesus said in Matthew chapeter 12:26 'If Satan drives out Satan , he is divided agains himself, how then can his kingdom stand?"

Last first: how then can his kingdom stand? It can’t and it won’t.
Besides you have no proof that Judas actually cast out any demons.

First last: he was initally a true believer The proof you offer for this conclusion is not there. If so, give me the chapter and verse that either says ^a^ Judas initially was a true believer, ^b^ having power over demons proves one a believer, or ^c^ Judas actually cast out a demon.. I think you are assuming all these things.

1. Hearing isn’t a work and neither is believing.
2. What were your reasons to chose to believe in Jesus?
3. Show me proof of your assumptions about Judas.

In Jesus alone,
mike
 
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Ben johnson

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well ben, if you think you do bad and you loose your salvation, you have to do good works to keep it. So you equate works with salvation.
Louis---sometimes discussions are builders-of-patience. No one has ever said "if you do bad you lose salvation, if you do good you keep it". What has been said, is that fellowship IS salvation. Founded on BELIEF. But if you DISBELIEVE, as Hebrews says, "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from the living God", as James1 says, "tempted by lust to sin, sin brings death", as 1Tim4 says, "the Spirit explicitly fays many wi fal from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons". I think the writers meant what they wrote...

Salvation is FELLOWSHIP, it is ABIDING IN CHRIST. But if we GO TOO FAR, and abide not, are we saved?
Nothing can seperate you from God. that's what the verse says, NOTHING can, this includes yourself. Also in romans paul very clearly states that God's gifts are irrevocable. Sorry, once you're saved you can't loose it
The words say "separate from GOD"? Nope---the words say, "nothing can separate you from His LOVE." We've just read verses that show "God loves the UNSAVED". God loved US BEFORE we were saved. God will still love us if we become unsaved AGAIN. Read 2Tim2:11-13---if we deny Him and become faithless, we shall NOT reign with Him; yet HE remains faithful! It's not HIS fault.

The word in Jn10:28, is "harpazo". The same exact word used for "Rapture" in 1Thess4. It means: "SEIZE-OR-REMOVE-FORCIBLY". If salvation is BELIEVING (and it IS), then would DISbelieving be a FORCIBLE REMOVAL? No. It would be "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from the living God". There is no FORCE---one who disbelieves, walks away by his own free will. Or could "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from the living God" not-really-mean-UNSAVED? Or are they EMPTY WORDS, not really POSSIBLE---a warning based on EMPTY AIR? Why were those words written?

"The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom11:29). Isn't it interesting, that a passage that clearly speaks of "you CAN be cut off, and THEY, if they don't CONTINUE in unbelief, can be grafted in again"---words clearly speaking of "falling-from-salvation" and "being RESTORED to salvation"---isn't it interesting that this passage is REJECTED by "OSAS" on the premise that "it only applies to ISRAEL as a NATION"---but then THIS verse from the SAME PASSAGE is ACCEPTED in SUPPORT of "OSAS"???   Isn't it a little, dishonest, to reject that passage when used in-support-of-"OSNAS", but then to turn around and use it in support of "OSAS"?

The gifts and calling of God, are "without repentance". Does God call EVERYONE? Yes. (Jn12:32) "Every good and perfect gift is from above" (Jms1:17), and God does NOT repent-of, take-back, His gifts to us. If He doesn't repent of them or revoke them---does that change their "REJECTABLENESS by US"? No. If we reject Him, He has not taken-back-the-gift-of-salvation, we have FORSAKEN IT!
"I think Jesus, and James, meant what they said."

I agree, the problem is that neither of them said you can loose your salvation.
I, uhmmm, actually, think they did.

"Abide in Me, and I in you. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is thrown away as a dried branch ...and burned." OH---you think "they didn't abide from the start". But the branch after it is thrown away, dries up---clearly it was being nourished SOMEwhere. And Rom11:17 speaks of "branches being broken OFF". Contextually, Jesus says "abiding is a CHOICE". In John8:31, "IF you abide in My word, THEN you are truly disciples of mine; and you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free." Does the entire chapter of John15 present "abiding in Him" as an ABSOLUTE, or as a CHOICE? "IF you abide in Me ...ask what you will; IF you keep My commandments (then) you will abide in My love..."

James says there is a type of "faith" that is DEAD---the kind that produces no works. (You will draw a breath to say "they were never SAVED to BEGIN with"...) Yet in 5:19-20, James says: "Brethren, if any of you..." Is James speaking to SAVED BRETHREN, or UNSAVED HEATHENS?

"Brethren, if any of you WANDER FROM THE TRUTH..." Backslide-but-not-FALL?
"Brethren, if any of you wander from the truth, and another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has SAVED A SOUL FROM DEATH, and covered a multitude of sins."

Wander from the truth? Saved a psuche-soul from thanatos-death? If it was mere PHYSICAL death, he woulda said "nekros" (see Jms2:26). But, "THANATOS", is "physical death with implication of HELL!

If JAMES was NOT speaking of "falling-from-salvation" here, then what was he SAYING?

On another message board a certain young lady, who just survived a terrible accident---laments that "the discussion of OSAS/OSNAS seems so STERILE---how are we edified, how are our spiritual walks strengthened by this?" I agree with her. And with her assertion that her spirit understands foundational truths about God's Spirit and nature; and our own natures. Our "two wills", our "sentience and free will". This is the bent of my spirit too. I persist in this kind of debate, because I believe it affects directly our perception of God, and of our salvation; can it do anything BUT strengthen and improve us? If I succeed in showing, from Scripture, that "salvation is FELLOWSHIP"---will that not help EACH of us to grow CLOSER IN FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM?

I can attest to her spiritual discernment. But, speaking with brethren, my spiritual discernment is good testimony, but not sufficient on which they base their faith---if I am led by God, my discernment will MIRROR SCRIPTURE---for Scripture is inspired by God.

Scripture is not sterile, it does not operate in a vacuum---Scripture is God's own words, His own inspiration, His instruction to us. It is common ground, on which we can agree.

Hopefully can agree?

;)
 
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