Biblical examples of people who lost their salvation

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In the Old Testament the Spirit came on people. In Acts began something that had never occured before. The Spirit indwelt and is given as a seal and a pledge. All the examples given can be showing that the person in question never had genuine salvation. You must acknowledge this possibility. Hebrews appears to say that if one ever were to turn away that it is impossible for them to once again sacrifice the lamb unto forgiveness, but I've never met a person who believes that you can lose your salvation that didn't also believe you could get saved again, and again, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. God is omnicient, would He give His Spirit to one as a seal and take it back then give it again then take it back. Salvation is a work of God not of man. Phillipians 1:6 says that He who began a good work in you will complete it. If salvation is a work of God and Phillipians is true then one who is saved by God will persever because God promised to finish what He started. If we are saved apart from works and sealed and promised completion and told that nothing can snatch us out of His hand. Then I say that if someone turns away, they are only showing that they never were really saved. Remember the verse that says a dog will return to it's vomit. a pig cleaned up will return to the mud. But when a person is saved they are a new creation, a new creature in Christ. When you were created a human being, can you cease to be a human being. when we are created a Christian we can not cease to be what we were created to be. The true believer is not presumptous, using Grace for licsence but groans when they sin.

Saved and sealed in Christ,
Scott
 
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Miss Shelby

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. All the examples given can be showing that the person in question never had genuine salvation.

Can you give me one biblical citaton where Judas never had genuine salvtion?   Or to put in more plainly..give me one citation which says that Judas was damned to begin with.

Michelle
 
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Miss Shelby

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If we are saved apart from works and sealed and promised completion and told that nothing can snatch us out of His hand. Then I say that if someone turns away, they are only showing that they never were really saved.

Please explain to me how a person who has tasted an seen that the Lord is good, a person who has shown true signs of believing in the Lord.. a person who has known the Lord as their Savior and for whatever reason (sin) has fallen away.... explain to me how that person could have ' never been saved in the first place?'  Do you not know anyone who   was a Christian who is now in a backslidden state?

To me it sounds as if we are handing them over to Satan on a silver platter.

 

Michelle
 
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Ben johnson

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How can you say that is about salvation?  There's nothing in the whole passage that says salvation! (referring to 2Pet2:20-22)

Please help me to understand how saved people did NOT lose their salvation in 2Pet2.  They were either:

1. saved, and lost salvation

2. never saved in the FIRST place

3. never lost salvation, remained saved

Look at chapter 1---here is a group of people, who are: "apopheugo-escaped the corruption in the world (by lust) by the epignosis-saved-knowledge of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST".  They are of the same faith as Peter.

Now, in chapter 2, we have: "apopheugo-escaped the defilements of the world through the epignosis-saved-knowledge of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST".  How can the same, word-for-word description in two consecutive chapters, how can the SECOND mean different than the FIRST???

How can the CHAPTER TWO escapees NOT be saved, when the CHAPTER ONE escapees ARE?!

Additionally, the chapter 2 ones, are worse than their FIRST STATE.  HUH?  If they are never SAVED, then they have NEVER LEFT THE FIRST STATE!!!  If they were never saved, then their last state is precisely the same as their second state, which is precisely the same as their FIRST---lost!

"Better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness"...  "Epignosis" is a special knowledge---it is not just "aware of the facts", it is EXPERIENTIAL.  So when it says, "better to have never EPIGINOSKO the way of righteousness", they really KNEW IT.  Then it says, "...than, having KNOWN it, to TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT HANDED TO THEM!"

"Turn-away-from"---"epistrepho-ek".  Please tell me how one-who-never-WAS-saved, can "epistrepho-ek" the HOLY COMMANDMENT???

3. They never lost salvation, they remained saved---They are again entangled in the defilements and overcome, they are worse than before-they-were-escaped.  They TURNED AWAY from the HOLY COMMANDMENT.  What would it need to say to convince you they forsook salvation?

2. They were never saved---but they were ESCAPED the defilements through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ!  What would it have to say to convince you THEY WERE SAVED?  You say, "they never stopped being dogs and sows"---but these labels were used only while they wallowed in mire and vomit; if they had never LEFT the mire/vomit, they cannot RETURN to/unto ("epistrepho-epi/eis") to it, now CAN they?  The mire and vomit represent the WORLD'S DEFILEMENTS---and verse 20 begins with: "After they had ESCAPED the defilements..."  There was a time, when they were SHEEP!!!!!!!

1. Saved, and lost salvation.  This is the only understanding that cannot be refuted.  Either "OSAS" must be forsaken, or Peter's letters must be rejected.

There is no other way...
 
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eldermike

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2Pet 2:
The text says they denied the one that "bought" them.(2:1) Now if you read that to mean they were "bought"(action) I can see how you got to where you are. But if you read it as all other references to Christ (as savior of the world) then it descriptive of Jesus.
There are many examples of descriptive language refering to Jesus. In this case the description is being used as an action taken and I bleive that is false, IMHO.

Jesus purchased all men, if all beleive. We are not condemed unless we choose wrong and then the words condem, not God.

This is a warning about people that will use the gospel, not believing it ever, but using it. They will promise freedom, which is a waring that they will sound like they know what they are talking about.

I don't read any part of 2 Pet. and come to any new conclusion that changes what I know to be true from the rest of the NT.

Blessings
 
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eldermike

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I can't deal with out of context quotes. You draw a false conclusion if you don't deal with all of 2'nd Peter just the same with all of scripture. Who are you talking about in your list of choices, Peter was talking about people yet to come. ("just as there will be") What people are you talking about?
Find me a person in 2'nd Peter and I will answer your question. Peter is talking generally about the way people decieve using the Teaching of Jesus but not believing in it. Today we would call them a fraud. These people are never saved, never have been saved and will not be saved.
 
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Miss Shelby

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Today we would call them a fraud. These people are never saved, never have been saved and will not be saved.

If they were never saved in the first place, then why does 2 Peter say that their second state would be worse than their first state? If you're unsaved then how can that get any worse?

Michelle
 
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LouisBooth

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"If you're unsaved then how can that get any worse"

Easy..you see God and reject him. God doesn't change, so its not like you're gonna seen anything different. You have turned your back to God and thus, most probably are never going to be saved.
 
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Michelle,
In regards to Judas, look at John 13:18. Jesus is clearly stating that Judas was never chosen. Jesus also says "My sheep hear my voice". He also says you have not chosen me but I have chosen you. Look at 1John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. verse 10 says, This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the Devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. This is another verse that shows that a true believer is secure because they are born of God and His seed remains in him: and that one who is not born of God but may have followed for a time looking for what they can get out of this religion will always show who's child they really are even if it's not until Jesus says depart from me I never knew you. Which also shows that there are those who by our understanding have not only not fallen away but from our perspective appear to be very godly individuals who will be rejected because they were never born of God. See 1John 2:19 They went out from us,but they did not really belong to us, for if they had belonged to us, theywould have remained with us: but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
So tell me wether you believe that if a person loses their salvation that they can be saved again. You cannot read Hebrews and believe that they can be resaved.
Lets see, the Bible says God's seed remains in those born of Him. It says that those who belong will remain. It says that God will complete the work He began in us. My security is in what Christ did for me. I am born of God and His seed will remain in me. I am a new creation, no longer a dog so I will not return to my vomit, no longer a pig so I will not return to wallow in the mud. Yes, I may get soiled by sin, but as Jesus told Peter, when you have been cleansed you need only for your feet to be washed.
 
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Ben johnson

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I can't deal with out of context quotes. You draw a false conclusion if you don't deal with all of 2'nd Peter just the same with all of scripture. Who are you talking about in your list of choices, Peter was talking about people yet to come. ("just as there will be") What people are you talking about?
Find me a person in 2'nd Peter and I will answer your question. Peter is talking generally about the way people decieve using the Teaching of Jesus but not believing in it. Today we would call them a fraud. These people are never saved, never have been saved and will not be saved.
Mike, you know very well who I'm talking about---specifically, those who "after escaping the defilements of the world, and become again entangled in them and overcome". Verse 20, fourth word, "THEY". THEM people.

Fine if you want to understand it is "IN GENERAL"---he's still presenting it as POSSIBLE.

Focus on verses 20-22, just three verses, and answer:

Were they NEVER SAVED?
Were they SAVED and NEVER REALLY FELL?
Were they SAVED and FELL FROM SALVATION?

Which? Gotta be one of 'em...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See 1John 2:19 They went out from us,but they did not really belong to us, for if they had belonged to us, theywould have remained with us: but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
These are specific individuals, certain ANTICHRISTS AMONG YOU. Please read 2Jn1:8-9, (understanding 1Jn5:12-13) and tell me if John believed it was POSSIBLE to BELONG TO THEM, but still GO OUT FROM THEM...
So tell me wether you believe that if a person loses their salvation that they can be saved again. You cannot read Hebrews and believe that they can be resaved.
Lets see, the Bible says God's seed remains in those born of Him.
Gee, no one reads the previous pages. (Ben draws a breath...)
Heb6:4-6, says "it is IMPOSSIBLE..." The word "impossible" in the Greek, is "adunatos"---a fluent Greek speaker informs me "impossible with things, unable with people"; Greek Concordance defines "adunatos" as "impossible, weak, powerless, impotent".

"...for those who have once been enlightened, have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit..." Some say "they were only TASTERS, not really SAVED". Again the Greek comes to the rescue---partakers here, is "metochos"---used in Heb3:1&14---means "partakers, partners". The partnership[/b] is absolutely conveyed! The Holy Spirit DOES NOT PARTNER with the unsaved. Period.

"...impossible (powerless) to restore them to repentance..." Impossible for them to be saved again? NO---it only says, "they won't wanna REPENT". Why? It tells us why:

(KJV)"Seeing as..."
(NIV)"BECAUSE..."
(NASV)"SINCE"
(NASV, footnote)"WHILE"

"...they crucify to themselves Christ anew, and hold Him to public shame (contempt)".

The verb "parapiptos" (fall-away) is aorist---it is not past, nor present, nor future. This whole passage simply says, "It is unable to restore them to repentance WHILE they fall away and WHILE they crucify to themselves Christ anew and hold Him in contempt".

That's all.

"For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall aso reign with Him. But if we deny Him, He also will deny us (and we shall NOT reign with Him). If we are faithless (and PERISH), yet He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2Tim2:11-13 Matt10:32-33

Or are you willing to contend that a FAITHLESS one is STILL SAVED???

Yes He chose us, IN HIM, before the foundation of the World---but that is predicated on our BELIEF---from our own hearts. Read Matt22:2-14. All are called, but only those who COME, AND clothe themselves with righteousness become the CHOSEN.

Now read 2Thess2:13---God chose us from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit, and through faith in the truth. We are saved by our own faith? ALL of them said so. Jesus in Luke 21:19, Peter in 1Pt1:9, all of them...

"ANd this is the will ('thelea-desire') of God, that ALL who behold the Son of God and believe in Him, may have eternal life..." Jn6:40
 
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eldermike

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Ben,

If you insist. The example Peter is using on how people will decieve the true beleivers, they will not be saved, ever. They will be "worse off" Which is a clear indication that they were bad off to start with. Think about the words. If I was ever saved i would not be "bad off". To be "worse off" I have to start from "bad off".

Never saved. They will be liars from the begining to judgment.

Blessings
 
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Dear Miss Shelby,

First, why are you assuming that the state Peter is talking about is the state of relationship between God and man, saved or unsaved?

The state that is worse might be their state of anxiety. Their state that might be worse could be their greater looseness towards sin and the folly that goes along with it. If you read the whole chapter of 2nd Peter 2 you will see that these people are desribed as thus:

as false teachers
introducers of destructive heresies
deniers of the Master
followers of sensuality
greedy
liars
deniers of authority
daring and self-willed
revilers of angelic majesties
stains and blemishes
revelers in deceptioms
eyes full of adultery
NEVER CEASING FROM SIN
enticers of unstable minds
accursed children
followers of the way of Balaam
lovers of the wages of unrighteousness
springs without water
mists without storms
people for whom black darkness has been reserved
arrogant flatters
slaves of corruption

These things are descriptive of the people who you think were saved.
They claimed Jesus as Lord [that is how they wormed their way into the people's confidences to be teachers of falsehoods].
They were trusted [the Holy commandmnets were passed down to them]
BUT they never stopped sinning.

If you read similar descriptive passages about these people in Jude you will see that these people are devoid of the Spirit [Jude 19 ISV]

These people, as shown by the whole of 2nd Peter 2, and Jude, and 1st John, and Timothy, and wherever else they are described, do not meet the basic guidelines that most christians would use to descibe who they are and who they would extend the right hand of fellowship to.

When these decievers are found out, they show who they truly are for like the dogs they are they return to the vomit they always loved and like prize pigs once dressed up for the county show, they soon return to their wallowing in the mud. They never stopped being vomit-loving dogs, or mud-loving swine, they were decievers of the flock NEVER CEASING FROM SIN.

Christians who stumble are people who not only have ceased from sin, but are repentant once they do stumble. This is because we are not like we once were, accursed children and followers of satan, FOR NOW we have been changed and recieved a new spirit from God. We can tell who the children of God are because they are being led by the Spirit of God. These people in 2nd Peter 2 OBVIOUSLY NEVER HAVE, for thet have NEVER CEASED FROM SIN, and STILL LOVE THE WAGES OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

It is also obvious from their description that is given that their escape from the world's defilements was in name only. They were never to be counted as godly men because GOD Himself will rescue the godly from temptation.

But seeing how they had heard and seen [by being with God's people] of the love and power of Christ, they end up more corrupt and detestable than before, seeing how they used their position of trust to prey on the weak and the young [in faith].

In His love,
mike
 
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Miss Shelby

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Originally posted by mjwhite Dear Miss Shelby,

First, why are you assuming that the state Peter is talking about is the state of relationship between God and man, saved or unsaved?

Dear Mike,

2 Peter 2:20-21 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.  It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Because the passage reads "if they again become entangled in it"  implying that they had truly escaped at one time.  How could they become entangled in it again if they never escaped it in the first place?   I think it is a pretty strong exhortation to be describing an unsaved/never saved  individuals emotional state.  I think they were saved once, and then walked away.

 If you read the whole chapter of 2nd Peter 2 you will see that these people are desribed as thus:

as false teachers
introducers of destructive heresies
deniers of the Master
followers of sensuality
greedy
liars
deniers of authority
daring and self-willed
revilers of angelic majesties
stains and blemishes
revelers in deceptioms
eyes full of adultery
NEVER CEASING FROM SIN
enticers of unstable minds
accursed children
followers of the way of Balaam
lovers of the wages of unrighteousness
springs without water
mists without storms
people for whom black darkness has been reserved
arrogant flatters
slaves of corruption

These things are descriptive of the people who you think were saved.
They claimed Jesus as Lord [that is how they wormed their way into the people's confidences to be teachers of falsehoods].
They were trusted [the Holy commandmnets were passed down to them]
BUT they never stopped sinning.

I would agree with you that the above mentioned people were probably not saved in that current condtion.  But it doesn't mean that they never were.  You said:

BUT they never stopped sinning.

The chapter  indicates that there was a period of time that they escaped the defilements of the world.  It doesn't mean  that they stopped sinning.  None of us do.  But they could have been enticed by sin and dragged away--avoiding repentance-- leading to a hardening of their heart which could put them into a state such as the one described above.

If they once knew the truth and then walked away from it, how much more accountable will they be held on the Day of Judgement?

Michelle
 
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Dear Michelle,

I don't believe they had actually escaped, nor do I believe the author intends to portray them as such and here is why:

When we become saved, we become different than what we used to be. We are changed, and all things become new. What we has before, a spirit that followed after the prince of the power of the air [satan] now follows after the prince of peace because it is made anew, it is not the same.

We then in essence are not the same as we once were. It is more than a change of mind and more than simply a change of attitude. It is a real change, we are not the same.

Yet the Word says that these people in 2nd Peter have NOT changed. They are still the dogs they were and so go back to the vomit. They are still are the pigs that love to wallow in the mud. Like the example i gave of the pig who is all cleaned up and taken to the county fair. You can imagine a pink bow tied to hsi tail. All cleaned up on the outside, having escaped the defilements of the sty, but still a mud loving pig on the inside.

The proverb was quoted from Proverbs 26. here in context:

The great God who formed everything gives the fool his hire and the transgressor his wages. As a dog returns to his own vomit, so a fool repeats his folly.

As to the scripture that speaks to the fact that they never cease from sin you said:

quote:

BUT they never stopped sinning.


The chapter indicates that there was a period of time that they escaped the defilements of the world. It doesn't mean that they stopped sinning. None of us do. But they could have been enticed by sin and dragged away--avoiding repentance-- leading to a hardening of their heart which could put them into a state such as the one described above


Since none of us stop sinning, when the Word says they never ceased from sin it is indicating that their sinful attitude of rebellion against God never ceased. While true Christians cease from sinning when they are born again since they for the most part walk in faith and not by sight, these false teachers never cease sinning and therefore have never walked by faith since they were never saved.

They are still the fools they always were, sinners who will recieve the wages of their unrighteousness. Fools say in their heart that there is no God.

But what makes you better than they? You still admit to being a sinner. [As I do as well] Why are they so foolish to not repent or to go back to their vomit and mud and you do not?

The reason is because you and I are saved by God. As the same chapter tells us, God is able to save the godly out from temptations but reserve the unjust for the day of judgment. What makes Christians godly?

Or since you believe these people were once Christians and now are not, being now counted as ungodly, what makes some Christians godly and others unjust? Or why do you stay saved? Why will you make it to heaven and those others will not?

Will your answer boast in what JESUS has done for you OR will you boast in what YOU have done with Jesus?

iN JESUS ALONE,
mike
 
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Miss Shelby

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Originally posted by mjwhite
Dear Michelle,

I don't believe they had actually escaped, nor do I believe the author intends to portray them as such and here is why:

When we become saved, we become different than what we used to be. We are changed, and all things become new. What we has before, a spirit that followed after the prince of the power of the air [satan] now follows after the prince of peace because it is made anew, it is not the same.


While I would agree with you that a person is changed following a conversion experience, I still think we can be tempted and succumb to sin.  Sin separates us from God.  It puts a tarnish on that relationship and repentance is required to mend it.  If understand what you're saying, and please forgive me if I don't... is that we haven't the control over our own desire to repent? 

When I became a believer, I wanted nothing more than please God.  But old habits die hard, and at the risk of you telling me that I am boasting in my own abilities--I have worked hard to get where I am at.  I praise God for it!


Yet the Word says that these people in 2nd Peter have NOT changed. They are still the dogs they were and so go back to the vomit. They are still are the pigs that love to wallow in the mud. Like the example i gave of the pig who is all cleaned up and taken to the county fair. You can imagine a pink bow tied to hsi tail. All cleaned up on the outside, having escaped the defilements of the sty, but still a mud loving pig on the inside.

The passage says 'if they again become entangled and overcome'.  Respectfully, I don't see it the way you do.


The proverb was quoted from Proverbs 26. here in context:

The great God who formed everything gives the fool his hire and the transgressor his wages. As a dog returns to his own vomit, so a fool repeats his folly.

A clear biblical example of the law of reaping and sowing.



They are still the fools they always were, sinners who will recieve the wages of their unrighteousness. Fools say in their heart that there is no God.

It says they had escaped the defilements of the world by knowing the Lord.  


But what makes you better than they? You still admit to being a sinner. [As I do as well] Why are they so foolish to not repent or to go back to their vomit and mud and you do not?

Nothing makes me better.  I'm not better and the reason I choose to remain in the Lord is because of the joy that He gives me.  But it isn't easier.  Life was much easier before I became a believer.

Or since you believe these people were once Christians and now are not, being now counted as ungodly, what makes some Christians godly and others unjust? Or why do you stay saved? Why will you make it to heaven and those others will not?

Will your answer boast in what JESUS has done for you OR will you boast in what YOU have done with Jesus? 

There are areas of tempation in my life that are extremely difficult for me to resist.  When I am tempted... the Lord doesn't automatically come to my rescue.   I have to call on His Name.  I have to say "Lord, please help me."  There is power in that.  I don't get that power if I don't ask.  I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength. Am I boasting in my own abilities?  No.  I couldn't do it without Him.

Michelle

 
 
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