Biblical Creation vs Evolution- the age of the Earth

Brightmoon

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The censored word is the name of a military post in Alabama which happens to contain a word synonymous with bum or butt. "A_senal"
That’s ok hon I’m Black and I use niggardly when I mean stingy with supplies or food. So I’ll excuse arsenal ;)

Nvm
Unbelievable that theyd censor that! what a facepalm moment
 
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46AND2

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That’s ok hon I’m Black and I use niggardly when I mean stingy with supplies or food. So I’ll excuse [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]nal;)

Lol. i guess it's a good thing I'm not a fan of the English Premier League soccer team named Arsenal. ^_^^_^
 
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Ophiolite

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Lol. i guess it's a good thing I'm not a fan of the English Premier League soccer team named [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]nal. ^_^^_^
Wow! And yet I have commented more than once that the (so-called) sentences of certain members did not parse. That did not get censored. Also, I live not far from the Carse of Gowrie, famed for its fruit growing. Will I be prohibited from promoting its attractions to the readers of this forum? It's just as well it is the spelling and not the sound that is censored, or we would have the farce of Darth Vader being prohibited!

Back on topic: does anyone know when a Creationist will present a sound, evidence based argument that seeks to demonstrate the reality of YEC beliefs directly, rather than by merely asserting evolution is false?
 
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Land locked "Fountains of the deep" would not result in tidal friction. It is said that the very structure of the earth changed during The Flood. So the rates would change over time and not be uniform according to scripture. I appreciate your correcting my analysis.
Unfortunately this adds some more ignorance, SkyWriting.

A minor point is the Bible does not state "Land locked". The context is oceans.

YEC fantasies implying that the Bible lies by omission should not be believed in. The Bible does not say "the very structure of the earth changed". The Bible implies that is not the case, e.g. post-"flood" place names are used for pre-"flood" places. There is no physical evidence of massive reconstruction of the Earth's surface in the last 6000 years. For example we have many uninterrupted ice cores stretching back 6,000 years and beyond 100,000 years (remember ice floats in water so the "flood" would have destroyed glaciers and icecaps).

The YEC lie we are talking about has the Moon receding over a period of 1.7 billon years. Combine their calculation and your assertion and the flood never happened according a literal interpretation of the Bible (in the last 6000 years)!
 
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1]The age of the earth is fact?
...
An older post but it reveals a tactic of deliberate ignorance and deliberate misunderstanding of what you reply to, Tolkien R.R.J.
1. ToE is fact. Accept this and move on.
2. Argument from quote mines impresses no one.
3. Even if ToE were wrong (which it isn’t), wouldn’t make make creo right by default.
4. Creationists are serial liars and frauds, and will say anything to get people like you to support them.
Biology is not geology and does not measure the age of the earth. "ToE is fact" is that the enormous body of evidence supporting evolution allows us to treat it as fact.
A spate of quotes does not impress anyone.
The logical fallacy of false dichotomy is common knowledge (theory A being invalid does not make theory B valid if theory C exists).
You ignorantly parroted a Gish gallop of YEC ignorance and lies ("serial liars and frauds").
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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This seems deceptive. The article is discussing background readings created by instrumentation. It isn't talking about naturally occurring C14 in ancient diamonds.

they found higher levels than just background reading was the point. Further creationist have done multiple tests [they did not even see the samples they used a coal company and university to test] and found the same results. Thus supports a young earth.
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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@Tolkien R.R.J

R. E. Taylor and J. Southon, “Use of Natural Diamonds to Monitor 14C AMS Instrument Backgrounds,” Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research B 259 (2007): 282–287.

This^ is what you sourced and this is what you should be reading. You should be reading the purpose of the research, and their conclusions.

They did not have any naturally occuring C14 in diamonds or fossils.

I stand corrected in that the article does describe studies done with petrified wood. It still does not describe naturally occuring C14 in ancient petrified wood however, nor in diamonds.

The article was a study regarding background AMS readings, just as the title suggests. "AMS Instrument Backgrounds"


That is because I gave you the source for what you asked, diamonds. Here are some of the sources you require.


A. A. Snelling, “Conflicting ‘Ages’ of Tertiary Basalt and Contained Fossilised Wood, Crinum, Central Queensland, Australia,” CEN Technical Journal 14.2 (2002): 99–122.
A. A. Snelling, “Radiocarbon in ‘Ancient’ Fossil Wood,” Impact #415, Acts & Facts, January 2008, pp. 10–13.
A. A. Snelling, “Radiocarbon Ages for Fossil Ammonites and Wood in Cretaceous Strata near Redding, California,” Answers Research Journal 1 (2008): 123–144.
J. R. Baumgardner, A. A. Snelling, D. R. Humphreys, and S. A. Austin, “Measurable 14C in Fossilized Organic Materials: Confirming the Young Earth Creation-Flood Model,” in Proceedings of the Fifth International Conference on Creationism, ed. R.L. Ivey Jr. (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania: Creation Science Fellowship, 2003), pp. 127–147.
P. Giem, “Carbon-14 Content of Fossil Carbon,” Origins 51 (2001): 6–30.
A. A. Snelling, “Radioactive ‘Dating’ in Conflict! Fossil Wood in ‘Ancient Lava Flow Yields Radiocarbon,” Creation (January–March 1997), pp. 24–27.
A. A. Snelling, “Stumping Old-Age Dogma: Radiocarbon in ‘Ancient’ Fossil Tree Stump Casts Doubt on Traditional Rock/Fossil Dating,” Creation (October–December 1998), pp. 48–51.
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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This happens all the time with these young earther websites. They take valid research that has a set purpose with set conclusions, and they just take it completely out of context and spin it so it sounds like something completely different than what the actual authors wrote.


@Tolkien R.R.J

What it sounds like you are saying, is that some people collected samples from the mesozoic (maybe 100-200 million years old), and those samples had C14 in them, so they ran them at the lab and the lab dated them to be maybe 50,000 years old. And it sounds like you are implying that this is what happened and that this is what the researchers were discussing and concluding.

"Similarly, carefully sampled pieces of coal from ten U.S. coal beds, ranging from Eocene to Pennsylvanian and supposedly 40–320 million years old, all contained similar radiocarbon levels "

This statement^ implies that these million year old coal beds contained C14.

But this is not the case at all. But thats what it sounds like you are trying to say. And I dont blame you, I blame the sources that are feeding you, because they are the ones who are twisting things to begin with.


OR. As i said you did not ask for the correct reference only the one on diamonds so i gave you that one. Check the new references i gave the next post as this indeed is the case.
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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I am stating that you are ignorantly parroting lies which you could have found out with a little research.
8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Parrots a YEC delusion about the recession of the Moon from the Earth.


Once more evolutionist must call observation and peer reviewed [evolutionist even] sources and studies lies, its all a pack of lies the earth is flat, evolution is true, and demons around every corner. I am ok with denial i am unsure how an evolutionist could not still be one without a heavy dose.
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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Lets read some of the article here:

"There are a number of potential sources of a C14 background signal in an AMS-based system using catalytically condense graphitic carbon produced from CO2 derived from the combuistion or acidication of carboniferous materials. One of these categories is instrument or machine backgruond which involves the registration of what is interpreted by the detector circuitry and or software as a C14 ion produced pulse, when, in fact a non C14 ion mimics C14 or the detector counts C14 which was not originally present in the sample matrix when it was introduced into the source".

More to come...


Objections (technical) and answers
  1. The 14C readings in the diamonds are the result of background radiation in the detector. This shows that the objector doesn’t even understand the method. AMS doesn’t measure radiation but counts atoms. It was the obsolete scintillation method that counted only decaying atoms, so was far less sensitive. In any case, the mean of the 14C/C ratios in Dr Baumgardner’s diamonds was close to 0.12±0.01 pMC, well above that of the lab’s background of purified natural gas (0.08 pMC).
  2. The 14C was produced by U-fission (actually it’s cluster decay of radium isotopes that are in the uranium decay chain). This was an excuse proposed for 14C in coal, also analysed in Dr Baumgardner’s paper, but not possible for diamonds. But to explain the observed 14C, then the coal would have to contain 99% uranium, so colloquial parlance would term the sample ‘uranium’ rather than ‘coal’.1
  3. The 14C was produced by neutron capture by 14N impurities in the diamonds.But this would generate less than one ten-thousandth of the measured amount even in best case scenarios of normal decay. And as Dr Paul Giem points out:‘One can hypothesize that neutrons were once much more plentiful than they are now, and that is why there is so much carbon-14 in our experimental samples. But the number of neutrons required must be over a million times more than those found today, for at least 6,000 years; and every 5,730 years that we put the neutron shower back doubles the number of neutrons required. Every time we halve the duration of the neutron shower we roughly double its required intensity. Eventually the problem becomes insurmountable. In addition, since nitrogen creates carbon-14 from neutrons 110,000 times more easily than does carbon-13, a sample with 0.000 0091% nitrogen should have twice the carbon-14 content of a sample without any nitrogen. If neutron capture is a significant source of carbon-14 in a given sample, radiocarbon dates should vary wildly with the nitrogen content of the sample. I know of no such data. Perhaps this effect should be looked for by anyone seriously proposing that significant quantities of carbon-14 were produced by nuclear synthesis in situ.’2Also, if atmospheric contamination were responsible, the entire carbon content would have to be exchanged every million years or so. But if this were occurring, we would expect huge variations in radiocarbon dates with porosity and thickness, which would also render the method useless.1 Dr Baumgardner thus first thought that the 14C must have been there right from the beginning. But if nuclear decay were accelerated, say a recent episode of 500 million years worth, it could explain some of the observed amounts. Indeed, his RATE colleagues have shown good evidence for accelerated decay in the past, which would invalidate radiometric dating.
  4. The 14C ‘dates’ for the diamonds of 55,700 years were still much older than the biblical timescale. This misses the point: we are not claiming that this ‘date’ is the actual age; rather, if the earth were just a million years old, let alone 4.6 billion years old, there should be no 14C at all! Another point is that the 55,700 years is based on an assumed 14C level in the atmosphere. Since no one, creationist or evolutionist, thinks there has been an exchange of carbon in the diamond with the atmosphere, using the standard formula for 14C dating to work out the age of a diamond is meaningless. Also, 14C dating assumes that the 14C/C ratio has been constant. But the Flood must have buried huge numbers of carbon-containing living creatures, and some of them likely formed today’s coal, oil, natural gas and some of today’s fossil-containing limestone. Studies of the ancient biosphere indicate that there was several hundred times as much carbon in the past, so the 14C/C ratio would have been several hundred times smaller. This would explain the observed small amounts of 14C found in ‘old’ samples that were likely buried in the Flood.
Reference
https://creation.com/diamonds-a-creationists-best-friend#objections
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Tolkien R.R.J

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8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "religious fervor" fantasy when my profile states that I am an atheist.
It is evidence based fervor.

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "use the quote tags" lie when I use quote tags as in this reply.
What I do not do is quote your quote bombs again (as in your OP) or irrelevant, detailing questions. That is why I use ellipses.

The post you replied to is clear. No evidence based replies and 1 ambiguous reply so:
6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: What are the other geological process that make "erosion rates of continents" into a lie (hint: Himalayas, Andes, the country of New Zealand).

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: The YEC claim that the sea cannot contain its measured salt is unsupported and starts with a probable "maximum possible age of 62 million years""

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: You cited a lie that astronomers consider spiral arms to be persistent physical features when that was discarded in 1926.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Did not understand the YEC lie about the sediment accumulation in oceans filling them up.

Apparently we don't disagree on:
6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Parrots an "overall decay" of the Earth's magnetic field lie
Somehow I doubt this is an acknowledgement of the lie because the magnetic field cycles.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "based on faith" lie about the origins of comets.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A lie that uniformitarianism means population growth is constant.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Explain how fossils of species that died out > 65 million years ago can contain soft tissue that is < 6000 years old :eek: ?

With the addition of:
8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: An ignorant demand to not read a source containing and citing science (TalkOrigins).

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: An stupid and irrelevant Yahoo search for spiral galaxies that produces images of spiral galaxies!

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "religious faith on an old Earth" lie.

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "Thus you support my argument" lie about soft dinosaur tissue.


I would love to continue a talk with you as i find it very entertaining. However i would politely ask that you clean up your post. I cannot read them or understand them well. Please use the quote tags and get rid of the date and my name as well as separate color text. Take it slow, lets look at each issue one at a time.
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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To examine and monitor the level of machine background in the Irvine Keck Carbon Cycle AMS Spectrometer, we have obtained a series of measurements on a set of natural diamonds. Because of their great geologic age, we view it as a reasonable assumption that these gem-carbon samples contain no measureable C14 and that their physical characteristics significantly eliminate or reduce exogenous contamination from more recent carbon sources.

Theyre using diamonds essentially as something we call a "method blank" to determine what amounts of C14 are produced by this particular kind of machinery.

The truth regarding this article is that it is describing good science. It shows that we arent just blindly assuming things about the ages of samples, but rather we are examining all potential options and sources for C14, so that when we actually do go and date a sample, we have a firm understanding of if our measurements are accurate or not. And so the whole research paper involves Quality Control discussion centered around this particular AMS machine at the university of California.

And what they basically did was, they ran many different kinds of samples, some that would contain C14, some that wouldnt. And they basically established background readings of the machine. So that when they use the machine, they will have an understanding of what concentrations are true to the sample, and what concentrations are not.


Objections (technical) and answers
  1. The 14C readings in the diamonds are the result of background radiation in the detector. This shows that the objector doesn’t even understand the method. AMS doesn’t measure radiation but counts atoms. It was the obsolete scintillation method that counted only decaying atoms, so was far less sensitive. In any case, the mean of the 14C/C ratios in Dr Baumgardner’s diamonds was close to 0.12±0.01 pMC, well above that of the lab’s background of purified natural gas (0.08 pMC).
  2. The 14C was produced by U-fission (actually it’s cluster decay of radium isotopes that are in the uranium decay chain). This was an excuse proposed for 14C in coal, also analysed in Dr Baumgardner’s paper, but not possible for diamonds. But to explain the observed 14C, then the coal would have to contain 99% uranium, so colloquial parlance would term the sample ‘uranium’ rather than ‘coal’.1
  3. The 14C was produced by neutron capture by 14N impurities in the diamonds.But this would generate less than one ten-thousandth of the measured amount even in best case scenarios of normal decay. And as Dr Paul Giem points out:‘One can hypothesize that neutrons were once much more plentiful than they are now, and that is why there is so much carbon-14 in our experimental samples. But the number of neutrons required must be over a million times more than those found today, for at least 6,000 years; and every 5,730 years that we put the neutron shower back doubles the number of neutrons required. Every time we halve the duration of the neutron shower we roughly double its required intensity. Eventually the problem becomes insurmountable. In addition, since nitrogen creates carbon-14 from neutrons 110,000 times more easily than does carbon-13, a sample with 0.000 0091% nitrogen should have twice the carbon-14 content of a sample without any nitrogen. If neutron capture is a significant source of carbon-14 in a given sample, radiocarbon dates should vary wildly with the nitrogen content of the sample. I know of no such data. Perhaps this effect should be looked for by anyone seriously proposing that significant quantities of carbon-14 were produced by nuclear synthesis in situ.’2Also, if atmospheric contamination were responsible, the entire carbon content would have to be exchanged every million years or so. But if this were occurring, we would expect huge variations in radiocarbon dates with porosity and thickness, which would also render the method useless.1 Dr Baumgardner thus first thought that the 14C must have been there right from the beginning. But if nuclear decay were accelerated, say a recent episode of 500 million years worth, it could explain some of the observed amounts. Indeed, his RATE colleagues have shown good evidence for accelerated decay in the past, which would invalidate radiometric dating.
  4. The 14C ‘dates’ for the diamonds of 55,700 years were still much older than the biblical timescale. This misses the point: we are not claiming that this ‘date’ is the actual age; rather, if the earth were just a million years old, let alone 4.6 billion years old, there should be no 14C at all! Another point is that the 55,700 years is based on an assumed 14C level in the atmosphere. Since no one, creationist or evolutionist, thinks there has been an exchange of carbon in the diamond with the atmosphere, using the standard formula for 14C dating to work out the age of a diamond is meaningless. Also, 14C dating assumes that the 14C/C ratio has been constant. But the Flood must have buried huge numbers of carbon-containing living creatures, and some of them likely formed today’s coal, oil, natural gas and some of today’s fossil-containing limestone. Studies of the ancient biosphere indicate that there was several hundred times as much carbon in the past, so the 14C/C ratio would have been several hundred times smaller. This would explain the observed small amounts of 14C found in ‘old’ samples that were likely buried in the Flood.
Reference
https://creation.com/diamonds-a-creationists-best-friend#objections
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Tolkien R.R.J

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Its just disturbing. You get people doing real research and science. And then you have young earthers making up things about rocks being contaminated by zircons?? And mesozoic fossils and diamonds with C14 in them???

Its all a bunch of nonsense


yes it's all lies, the devil put c-14 in those samples to deceive us to believe in a young earth. its observed science but lets go with the devil ,than we can believe in an old earth and sleep at night.


Really its disturbing how quick people are willing to jump to conclusions they wish simply because they took the wrong source.
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Tolkien R.R.J

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If the rock was contaminated, the laboratory would have derived false results, but the results were accurate, and were therefore not subject to contamination.

You dont even see any circular reasoning in this statement do you? how do you know it is a good date? if it fits my beliefs, and if it does not? that we know its contaminated. But how does a rock that gives 3 radical different dates by 3 methods somehow = an accurate date for the evolutionist? i guess i will never understand evolutionary thinking.


When you use the word contamination, you are implying that the sample was contaminated by something that was artificially introduced.


ok here is the issue, no that is not at all what i mean please see my op on radiometric dating. All this time and you still have not read it?



For example, I can contaminate water by sticking a dirty sock into the water. I am artificially introducing contamination to the sample, which therefore results in a false positive result.

But indeed, both the granite and the zircon, were not contaminated by anything artificially introduced, and the results of their dating, were accurate.

This is why we have the word "inclusion" and we have the "principal of inclusions"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_included_fragments

If you want to talk about science, you need to familiarize yourself with the lingo. Otherwise you are being deceptive, or you just sound like you dont know what you're talking about, or both.

Naturally occurring compounds in rock, are not contaminants, they are naturally occurring, and in this case, are inclusions.


Thanks i never did good in english class.
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Repeats the lie that carbon-14 is found in fossils and adds a lie about "billions of years"
Carbon dating is not valid for the vast majority of fossils because their organic matter has been replaced by minerals. Organic means carbon-based compounds. Insane people carbon dating these fossils get the dates of contaminants or the limits of dating. There are a handful of examples of soft tissue preservation inside dinosaur fossils. That is organic fossil material that could be dated by stupid people.

Carbon dating is not valid for samples that are billions of years old. Diamonds are dated by other methods to be billions of years old. Their main transport to the surface (kimberlites) have dates of tens of millions of years.

A lying citation of Use of Natural Diamonds to Monitor 14C AMS Instrument Backgrounds.


8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "Carbon-14 is found in ancient samples including diamonds" lie.
There are "apparent 14C ages". My impression was that this was from C14 trapped at formation or maybe through absorption. But diamonds are dated by other methods to be billions of years old and it would be a big coincidence to have 14 natural diamonds from different sources that all formed recently. Reading the abstract again I see "one component of the instrument-based background". Thus this is C14 from the instrument itself.


Objections (technical) and answers
  1. The 14C readings in the diamonds are the result of background radiation in the detector. This shows that the objector doesn’t even understand the method. AMS doesn’t measure radiation but counts atoms. It was the obsolete scintillation method that counted only decaying atoms, so was far less sensitive. In any case, the mean of the 14C/C ratios in Dr Baumgardner’s diamonds was close to 0.12±0.01 pMC, well above that of the lab’s background of purified natural gas (0.08 pMC).
  2. The 14C was produced by U-fission (actually it’s cluster decay of radium isotopes that are in the uranium decay chain). This was an excuse proposed for 14C in coal, also analysed in Dr Baumgardner’s paper, but not possible for diamonds. But to explain the observed 14C, then the coal would have to contain 99% uranium, so colloquial parlance would term the sample ‘uranium’ rather than ‘coal’.1
  3. The 14C was produced by neutron capture by 14N impurities in the diamonds.But this would generate less than one ten-thousandth of the measured amount even in best case scenarios of normal decay. And as Dr Paul Giem points out:‘One can hypothesize that neutrons were once much more plentiful than they are now, and that is why there is so much carbon-14 in our experimental samples. But the number of neutrons required must be over a million times more than those found today, for at least 6,000 years; and every 5,730 years that we put the neutron shower back doubles the number of neutrons required. Every time we halve the duration of the neutron shower we roughly double its required intensity. Eventually the problem becomes insurmountable. In addition, since nitrogen creates carbon-14 from neutrons 110,000 times more easily than does carbon-13, a sample with 0.000 0091% nitrogen should have twice the carbon-14 content of a sample without any nitrogen. If neutron capture is a significant source of carbon-14 in a given sample, radiocarbon dates should vary wildly with the nitrogen content of the sample. I know of no such data. Perhaps this effect should be looked for by anyone seriously proposing that significant quantities of carbon-14 were produced by nuclear synthesis in situ.’2Also, if atmospheric contamination were responsible, the entire carbon content would have to be exchanged every million years or so. But if this were occurring, we would expect huge variations in radiocarbon dates with porosity and thickness, which would also render the method useless.1 Dr Baumgardner thus first thought that the 14C must have been there right from the beginning. But if nuclear decay were accelerated, say a recent episode of 500 million years worth, it could explain some of the observed amounts. Indeed, his RATE colleagues have shown good evidence for accelerated decay in the past, which would invalidate radiometric dating.
  4. The 14C ‘dates’ for the diamonds of 55,700 years were still much older than the biblical timescale. This misses the point: we are not claiming that this ‘date’ is the actual age; rather, if the earth were just a million years old, let alone 4.6 billion years old, there should be no 14C at all! Another point is that the 55,700 years is based on an assumed 14C level in the atmosphere. Since no one, creationist or evolutionist, thinks there has been an exchange of carbon in the diamond with the atmosphere, using the standard formula for 14C dating to work out the age of a diamond is meaningless. Also, 14C dating assumes that the 14C/C ratio has been constant. But the Flood must have buried huge numbers of carbon-containing living creatures, and some of them likely formed today’s coal, oil, natural gas and some of today’s fossil-containing limestone. Studies of the ancient biosphere indicate that there was several hundred times as much carbon in the past, so the 14C/C ratio would have been several hundred times smaller. This would explain the observed small amounts of 14C found in ‘old’ samples that were likely buried in the Flood.
Reference
https://creation.com/diamonds-a-creationists-best-friend#objections
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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Certainly.

When I was in the military, I worked with electronic test equipment. People from other units would bring their equipment to us to be tested for accuracy...or calibration, as it is termed. So the standards set forth by the military that each piece of equipment has to be calibrated by another tool that is at least 4 times as accurate. So the equipment that we used had to be 4 times as accurate as the equipment being brought to us. This equipment with the higher accuracy is what we call the standard. So we would adjust, or calibrate, the other unit's equipment to match our standard. In turn, we would have to send our equipment to Redstone [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]nal, Alabama, where they had equipment used as standards for our equipment. And so on, until it was eventually traceable to NIST (National Institute of Science and Technology) in Colorado.

Of course, sometimes it wasn't always possible to obtain these proper calibrations, such as when we were deployed in mobile vans. So, we did something called "cross-checking." The idea is basically that we test our equipment against each other, in several different ways. So let's say we were testing the output voltage of a piece of equipment. We might measure that output voltage on an oscilloscope, a multimeter, and whatever else we had which was capable of it.

So, if we get the same measurement on each of the three measurement tools, we could be reasonably certain that all of those pieces of equipment were functioning normally, even though we didn't have access to standards. Because the more methods you have for making a measurement that agree with each other, the less likely it is that the measurement is wrong. The odds are pretty slim that the voltage output was incorrect, and the measuring tools were wrong in JUST SUCH a way that they all gave the same wrong answer, which just so happened to coincide with the expected value of output.

This idea is called consilience.

So, this is how we know that the decay rate of carbon has been consistent for at least the last 40-50k years. Carbon dating is calibrated primarily using dendrochronology (over the last 11-12k years). It is the science of counting the tree rings of specific types of trees which have been observed to grow one ring per year to determine how old the tree is. So tree rings are the standard by which we adjust the carbon dating (more on why it needs to be adjusted in a minute...it debunks one of your other "assumptions"). Yes, I know you have issues with dendrochronology too, but let me finish.

So now you may be asking. Ok, so what is the standard for dendrochonology? This is where the "cross-checks" come in. We don't really have a standard by which to test dendrochronology (at least not directly), so we have to test it against other methods. So this is what we do:

We have multiple tree chronologies (in different parts of the world) which go back to more than 10k years. If we carbon date a section of those chronologies, we can determine what the atmospheric carbon content was at that time (because it does change...we know this...we never assume that it didn't) by comparing the raw (uncalibrated) carbon date with the tree ring counts. So we use this knowledge to calibrate the carbon date.

From there, we do several things. 1. We test these calibrated carbon dates against items of historically KNOWN age. 2. We test the calibrated dates against annual sediment layers, called varves, deposited in a couple of lakes throughout the world (most notably Lake Sujitsu in Japan) 3. We test them against annual layers of ice cores, like has been spoken of here, in Greenland. 4. Against speleothems 5. against coral bands. 6. Against known volcanic eruptions with embedded ash layers within the varves, and cores, and against the abnormal tree rings during that time.

And we can plot all of these data points on a graph, and show how well they match with each other.

The results are remarkable.

So the question you are left with is, which is more likely? 1. That the carbon dating is accurate, or 2. that somehow tree rings grew remarkably fast AND carbon decay rate vastly increased AND pollen was produced and deposited ridiculously often every year in the lakes, AND unknown volcanic eruptions just happened to occur at precisely the right time during those hundreds to thousands of pollen laying events AND the KNOWN volcanic eruptions somehow didn't leave a layer in the ACTUAL correct sediment layer AND a dozen other things happened JUST SO....

...we got the expected result of carbon years which matched all the (equally) wrong answers?


The western world have never had the chance to learn creation thinking and know only evolution. Naturalism enjoys a virtual monopoly in today's classrooms, while instructors who have been schooled only in naturalistic worldview play the part of evolutionary evangelist.”
-John D Morris and Frank J Sherwin The Fossil Record 2017




I am unsure if you are aware of the assumptions and circular reasoning going on here. I will link you to some sources.


Do Varves, Tree-Rings, and Radiocarbon Measurements Prove an Old Earth?
Refuting a Popular Argument by Old-Earth Geologists Gregg Davidson and Ken Wolgemuth
https://answersingenesis.org/age-of...ngs-radiocarbon-measurements-prove-old-earth/



rees grow annual rings; and in lakes thin sediment layers called varves are deposited. Like radiocarbon, these are used as dating methods. It is claimed these methods agree with one another. But closer examination renders them questionable at best. The key to their misuse is circular reasoning, which only proves what is assumed to begin with. For instance, radiocarbon is calibrated against tree rings, but then the tree-ring master chronology is calibrated using radiocarbon. And varves are counted at one per year, but then the counts are corrected using the radiocarbon in organic debris found in the varves themselves. Thus there is no objective dating standard for these three methods. Instead, this forced agreement renders these dating methods totally unreliable. They cannot be used to discredit the Bible's timescale for earth's history.
https://answersingenesis.org/store/product/circular-reasoning-dating-methods/



Layers of Assumption
Are Tree Rings and Other “Annual” Dating Methods Reliable?
https://answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-earth/layers-assumption/


Tree ring dating (dendrochronology) has been used in an attempt to extend the calibration of carbon-14 dating earlier than historical records allow, but this depends on temporal placement of fragments of wood (from long-dead trees) using carbon-14 dating.

https://creation.com/tree-ring-dating-dendrochronology
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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1. The age of the earth is not something that is handled in biology, but in geology and to an extent chemistry / physics. Scientists knew the earth was MUCH older then a few thousand years before evolution was a thing.

2. it is not "always" changing. It is rather improved in accuracy. As more evidence comes in, as we learn more. It's called progress. Also, if it changes, every time it is because new evidence showed it to be OLDER then previously believed.
The idea of a "young" earth has been discarded and refuted a LONG time ago.



lol.... argument from conspiracy.

Yeah, okay.... 99.8% of biologists, geneticists, molecular biologists,... yep, all "liars and frauds". Uhu.




I bet it will be very entertaining.


so as a quick response, you offered no justification for your faith or for your statements. Thanks for your opinions though.
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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I will continue responding to all posts until page 20. I want to move on to new subjects and time is of importance. I will be doing a new thread down the road on biblical creation and this subject can be brought up once more. Thanks for the discussions.
 
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SkyWriting

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Unfortunately this adds some more ignorance, SkyWriting. A minor point is the Bible does not state "Land locked". The context is oceans.YEC fantasies implying that the Bible lies by omission should not be believed in. The Bible does not say "the very structure of the earth changed".

Odd that you would make efforts to correct my knowledge of scripture.

Genesis 9:11
I establish my covenant with you, that
never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood,
and never again shall there be
a flood to destroy the earth.”

Genesis 6:13
And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

2 Peter 3:6
And that by means of these
the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were
all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Genesis 8:2
The fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed,
the rain from the heavens was restrained,

The YEC lie we are talking about has the Moon receding over a period of 1.7 billon years.

People rarely lie, but self deception is practiced by everyone.

Restating my point, with the earth destroyed completely or changed and the fountains of the deep closed, then opened, then closed, there is no way to evaluate the tidal forces on the moon with any accuracy over time.
 
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SkyWriting

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I will continue responding to all posts until page 20. I want to move on to new subjects and time is of importance. I will be doing a new thread down the road on biblical creation and this subject can be brought up once more. Thanks for the discussions.
Super.....
 
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