Biblical Creation vs Evolution- the age of the Earth

Job 33:6

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This happens all the time with these young earther websites. They take valid research that has a set purpose with set conclusions, and they just take it completely out of context and spin it so it sounds like something completely different than what the actual authors wrote.


@Tolkien R.R.J

What it sounds like you are saying, is that some people collected samples from the mesozoic (maybe 100-200 million years old), and those samples had C14 in them, so they ran them at the lab and the lab dated them to be maybe 50,000 years old. And it sounds like you are implying that this is what happened and that this is what the researchers were discussing and concluding.

"Similarly, carefully sampled pieces of coal from ten U.S. coal beds, ranging from Eocene to Pennsylvanian and supposedly 40–320 million years old, all contained similar radiocarbon levels "

This statement^ implies that these million year old coal beds contained C14.

But this is not the case at all. But thats what it sounds like you are trying to say. And I dont blame you, I blame the sources that are feeding you, because they are the ones who are twisting things to begin with.
 
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Job 33:6

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Lets read some of the article here:

"There are a number of potential sources of a C14 background signal in an AMS-based system using catalytically condense graphitic carbon produced from CO2 derived from the combuistion or acidication of carboniferous materials. One of these categories is instrument or machine backgruond which involves the registration of what is interpreted by the detector circuitry and or software as a C14 ion produced pulse, when, in fact a non C14 ion mimics C14 or the detector counts C14 which was not originally present in the sample matrix when it was introduced into the source".

More to come...
 
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I appreciate the religious fervor, but your posts are very hard to read could you please use the quote tags?
8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "religious fervor" fantasy when my profile states that I am an atheist.
It is evidence based fervor.

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "use the quote tags" lie when I use quote tags as in this reply.
What I do not do is quote your quote bombs again (as in your OP) or irrelevant, detailing questions. That is why I use ellipses.

The post you replied to is clear. No evidence based replies and 1 ambiguous reply so:
6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: What are the other geological process that make "erosion rates of continents" into a lie (hint: Himalayas, Andes, the country of New Zealand).

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: The YEC claim that the sea cannot contain its measured salt is unsupported and starts with a probable "maximum possible age of 62 million years""

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: You cited a lie that astronomers consider spiral arms to be persistent physical features when that was discarded in 1926.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Did not understand the YEC lie about the sediment accumulation in oceans filling them up.

Apparently we don't disagree on:
6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Parrots an "overall decay" of the Earth's magnetic field lie
Somehow I doubt this is an acknowledgement of the lie because the magnetic field cycles.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "based on faith" lie about the origins of comets.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A lie that uniformitarianism means population growth is constant.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Explain how fossils of species that died out > 65 million years ago can contain soft tissue that is < 6000 years old :eek: ?

With the addition of:
8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: An ignorant demand to not read a source containing and citing science (TalkOrigins).

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: An stupid and irrelevant Yahoo search for spiral galaxies that produces images of spiral galaxies!

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "religious faith on an old Earth" lie.

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "Thus you support my argument" lie about soft dinosaur tissue.
 
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Job 33:6

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To examine and monitor the level of machine background in the Irvine Keck Carbon Cycle AMS Spectrometer, we have obtained a series of measurements on a set of natural diamonds. Because of their great geologic age, we view it as a reasonable assumption that these gem-carbon samples contain no measureable C14 and that their physical characteristics significantly eliminate or reduce exogenous contamination from more recent carbon sources.

Theyre using diamonds essentially as something we call a "method blank" to determine what amounts of C14 are produced by this particular kind of machinery.

The truth regarding this article is that it is describing good science. It shows that we arent just blindly assuming things about the ages of samples, but rather we are examining all potential options and sources for C14, so that when we actually do go and date a sample, we have a firm understanding of if our measurements are accurate or not. And so the whole research paper involves Quality Control discussion centered around this particular AMS machine at the university of California.

And what they basically did was, they ran many different kinds of samples, some that would contain C14, some that wouldnt. And they basically established background readings of the machine. So that when they use the machine, they will have an understanding of what concentrations are true to the sample, and what concentrations are not.
 
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Job 33:6

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i meant contamination in nature, the rock was contaminated. But i get what your saying thanks.

If the rock was contaminated, the laboratory would have derived false results, but the results were accurate, and were therefore not subject to contamination.

When you use the word contamination, you are implying that the sample was contaminated by something that was artificially introduced.

For example, I can contaminate water by sticking a dirty sock into the water. I am artificially introducing contamination to the sample, which therefore results in a false positive result.

But indeed, both the granite and the zircon, were not contaminated by anything artificially introduced, and the results of their dating, were accurate.

This is why we have the word "inclusion" and we have the "principal of inclusions"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_included_fragments

If you want to talk about science, you need to familiarize yourself with the lingo. Otherwise you are being deceptive, or you just sound like you dont know what you're talking about, or both.

Naturally occurring compounds in rock, are not contaminants, they are naturally occurring, and in this case, are inclusions.
 
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Job 33:6

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Its just disturbing. You get people doing real research and science. And then you have young earthers making up things about rocks being contaminated by zircons?? And mesozoic fossils and diamonds with C14 in them???

Its all a bunch of nonsense
 
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I am not sure you are getting this. Carbon-14 is found in ancient samples including diamonds and fossils long after it should have decayed away. Thus their has not been time for them to decay away and the earth or those samples claimed to be over a billion years in age, are in fact young.
8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Repeats the lie that carbon-14 is found in fossils and adds a lie about "billions of years"
Carbon dating is not valid for the vast majority of fossils because their organic matter has been replaced by minerals. Organic means carbon-based compounds. Insane people carbon dating these fossils get the dates of contaminants or the limits of dating. There are a handful of examples of soft tissue preservation inside dinosaur fossils. That is organic fossil material that could be dated by stupid people.

Carbon dating is not valid for samples that are billions of years old. Diamonds are dated by other methods to be billions of years old. Their main transport to the surface (kimberlites) have dates of tens of millions of years.

A lying citation of Use of Natural Diamonds to Monitor 14C AMS Instrument Backgrounds.
To examine one component of the instrument-based background in the University of California Keck Carbon Cycle AMS spectrometer, we have obtained measurements on a set of natural diamonds pressed into sample holders. Natural diamond samples (N = 14) from different sources within rock formations with geological ages greatly in excess of 100 Ma yielded a range of currents (∼110–250 μA 12C− where filamentous graphite typically yields ∼150 μA 12C−) and apparent 14C ages (64.9 ± 0.4 ka BP [0.00031 ± 0.00002 fm] to 80.0 ± 1.1 ka BP [0.00005 ± 0.00001 fm]). Six fragments cut from a single diamond exhibited essentially identical 14C values – 69.3 ± 0.5 ka–70.6 ± 0.5 ka BP. The oldest 14C age equivalents were measured on natural diamonds which exhibited the highest current yields.

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "Carbon-14 is found in ancient samples including diamonds" lie.
There are "apparent 14C ages". My impression was that this was from C14 trapped at formation or maybe through absorption. But diamonds are dated by other methods to be billions of years old and it would be a big coincidence to have 14 natural diamonds from different sources that all formed recently. Reading the abstract again I see "one component of the instrument-based background". Thus this is C14 from the instrument itself.
 
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SkyWriting

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Claim CE110: Because of tidal friction, the moon is receding, and the earth's rotation is slowing down, at rates too fast for the earth to be billions of years old.

If the fountains of the deep were contained, the lack of wave action would not slow the rotation of the earth as much as after they were broken open.
 
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Someone else replied to this earlier as well. The dating was performed on different parts of the same granite. But granites arent necessarily homogenous . More specifically, zircon inclusions within granite can give older ages than the granite itself.

To explain, it would be like someone making a Hershey chocolate chip on Tuesday. Putting the chocolate chip in cookie dough on Wednesday, then dating the full baked cookie and the chocolate chip and saying "look the cookie is two separate ages!".
The analogy I was going to use was:
Bruce is 40 years old. Bruce buys a shirt. Bruce buys shoes. Bruce wears the shirt and shoes. Do the dates on the sale receipts for the shirt and shoes show that Bruce cannot be 40 years old?
 
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Job 33:6

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The analogy I was going to use was:
Bruce is 40 years old. Bruce buys a shirt. Bruce buys shoes. Bruce wears the shirt and shoes. Do the dates on the sale receipts for the shirt and shoes show that Bruce cannot be 40 years old?

I like my analogy better, but yes! I agree haha.
 
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If the fountains of the deep were contained, the lack of wave action would not slow the rotation of the earth as much as after they were broken open.
Waves are not tides, SkyWriting. Tidal friction or acceleration is tidal bulges pulling on the Moon and making it recede.

Claim CE110: Because of tidal friction, the moon is receding, and the earth's rotation is slowing down, at rates too fast for the earth to be billions of years old.

You missed the deluded nature of the YEC calculation.
Explaining the deluded part first - this is young Earth creationism that believes the Earth is 6000 years old calculating that the Moon and presumably the Earth is at least 1.37 billion years old!
 
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SkyWriting

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Waves are not tides, SkyWriting. Tidal friction or acceleration is tidal bulges pulling on the Moon and making it recede.

Claim CE110: Because of tidal friction, the moon is receding, and the earth's rotation is slowing down, at rates too fast for the earth to be billions of years old.

You missed the deluded nature of the YEC calculation.

Same effect. Land locked "Fountains of the deep" would not result in tidal friction. It is said that the very structure of the earth changed during The Flood. So the rates would change over time and not be uniform according to scripture. I appreciate your correcting my analysis.
 
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46AND2

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I am assuming you are referring to assumptions here. In that case lets focus in on decay rates and the assumption they have been constant through their history. Please tell me why this is not an assumption and i will need more than saying "this is a lie"

Certainly.

When I was in the military, I worked with electronic test equipment. People from other units would bring their equipment to us to be tested for accuracy...or calibration, as it is termed. So the standards set forth by the military that each piece of equipment has to be calibrated by another tool that is at least 4 times as accurate. So the equipment that we used had to be 4 times as accurate as the equipment being brought to us. This equipment with the higher accuracy is what we call the standard. So we would adjust, or calibrate, the other unit's equipment to match our standard. In turn, we would have to send our equipment to Redstone Arsenal, Alabama, where they had equipment used as standards for our equipment. And so on, until it was eventually traceable to NIST (National Institute of Science and Technology) in Colorado.

Of course, sometimes it wasn't always possible to obtain these proper calibrations, such as when we were deployed in mobile vans. So, we did something called "cross-checking." The idea is basically that we test our equipment against each other, in several different ways. So let's say we were testing the output voltage of a piece of equipment. We might measure that output voltage on an oscilloscope, a multimeter, and whatever else we had which was capable of it.

So, if we get the same measurement on each of the three measurement tools, we could be reasonably certain that all of those pieces of equipment were functioning normally, even though we didn't have access to standards. Because the more methods you have for making a measurement that agree with each other, the less likely it is that the measurement is wrong. The odds are pretty slim that the voltage output was incorrect, and the measuring tools were wrong in JUST SUCH a way that they all gave the same wrong answer, which just so happened to coincide with the expected value of output.

This idea is called consilience.

So, this is how we know that the decay rate of carbon has been consistent for at least the last 40-50k years. Carbon dating is calibrated primarily using dendrochronology (over the last 11-12k years). It is the science of counting the tree rings of specific types of trees which have been observed to grow one ring per year to determine how old the tree is. So tree rings are the standard by which we adjust the carbon dating (more on why it needs to be adjusted in a minute...it debunks one of your other "assumptions"). Yes, I know you have issues with dendrochronology too, but let me finish.

So now you may be asking. Ok, so what is the standard for dendrochonology? This is where the "cross-checks" come in. We don't really have a standard by which to test dendrochronology (at least not directly), so we have to test it against other methods. So this is what we do:

We have multiple tree chronologies (in different parts of the world) which go back to more than 10k years. If we carbon date a section of those chronologies, we can determine what the atmospheric carbon content was at that time (because it does change...we know this...we never assume that it didn't) by comparing the raw (uncalibrated) carbon date with the tree ring counts. So we use this knowledge to calibrate the carbon date.

From there, we do several things. 1. We test these calibrated carbon dates against items of historically KNOWN age. 2. We test the calibrated dates against annual sediment layers, called varves, deposited in a couple of lakes throughout the world (most notably Lake Sujitsu in Japan) 3. We test them against annual layers of ice cores, like has been spoken of here, in Greenland. 4. Against speleothems 5. against coral bands. 6. Against known volcanic eruptions with embedded ash layers within the varves, and cores, and against the abnormal tree rings during that time.

And we can plot all of these data points on a graph, and show how well they match with each other.

The results are remarkable.

So the question you are left with is, which is more likely? 1. That the carbon dating is accurate, or 2. that somehow tree rings grew remarkably fast AND carbon decay rate vastly increased AND pollen was produced and deposited ridiculously often every year in the lakes, AND unknown volcanic eruptions just happened to occur at precisely the right time during those hundreds to thousands of pollen laying events AND the KNOWN volcanic eruptions somehow didn't leave a layer in the ACTUAL correct sediment layer AND a dozen other things happened JUST SO....

...we got the expected result of carbon years which matched all the (equally) wrong answers?
 
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46AND2

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Certainly.

When I was in the military, I worked with electronic test equipment. People from other units would bring their equipment to us to be tested for accuracy...or calibration, as it is termed. So the standards set forth by the military that each piece of equipment has to be calibrated by another tool that is at least 4 times as accurate. So the equipment that we used had to be 4 times as accurate as the equipment being brought to us. This equipment with the higher accuracy is what we call the standard. So we would adjust, or calibrate, the other unit's equipment to match our standard. In turn, we would have to send our equipment to Redstone [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]nal, Alabama, where they had equipment used as standards for our equipment. And so on, until it was eventually traceable to NIST (National Institute of Science and Technology) in Colorado.

Of course, sometimes it wasn't always possible to obtain these proper calibrations, such as when we were deployed in mobile vans. So, we did something called "cross-checking." The idea is basically that we test our equipment against each other, in several different ways. So let's say we were testing the output voltage of a piece of equipment. We might measure that output voltage on an oscilloscope, a multimeter, and whatever else we had which was capable of it.

So, if we get the same measurement on each of the three measurement tools, we could be reasonably certain that all of those pieces of equipment were functioning normally, even though we didn't have access to standards. Because the more methods you have for making a measurement that agree with each other, the less likely it is that the measurement is wrong. The odds are pretty slim that the voltage output was incorrect, and the measuring tools were wrong in JUST SUCH a way that they all gave the same wrong answer, which just so happened to coincide with the expected value of output.

This idea is called consilience.

So, this is how we know that the decay rate of carbon has been consistent for at least the last 40-50k years. Carbon dating is calibrated primarily using dendrochronology (over the last 11-12k years). It is the science of counting the tree rings of specific types of trees which have been observed to grow one ring per year to determine how old the tree is. So tree rings are the standard by which we adjust the carbon dating (more on why it needs to be adjusted in a minute...it debunks one of your other "assumptions"). Yes, I know you have issues with dendrochronology too, but let me finish.

So now you may be asking. Ok, so what is the standard for dendrochonology? This is where the "cross-checks" come in. We don't really have a standard by which to test dendrochronology (at least not directly), so we have to test it against other methods. So this is what we do:

We have multiple tree chronologies (in different parts of the world) which go back to more than 10k years. If we carbon date a section of those chronologies, we can determine what the atmospheric carbon content was at that time (because it does change...we know this...we never assume that it didn't) by comparing the raw (uncalibrated) carbon date with the tree ring counts. So we use this knowledge to calibrate the carbon date.

From there, we do several things. 1. We test these calibrated carbon dates against items of historically KNOWN age. 2. We test the calibrated dates against annual sediment layers, called varves, deposited in a couple of lakes throughout the world (most notably Lake Sujitsu in Japan) 3. We test them against annual layers of ice cores, like has been spoken of here, in Greenland. 4. Against speleothems 5. against coral bands. 6. Against known volcanic eruptions with embedded ash layers within the varves, and cores, and against the abnormal tree rings during that time.

And we can plot all of these data points on a graph, and show how well they match with each other.

The results are remarkable.

So the question you are left with is, which is more likely? 1. That the carbon dating is accurate, or 2. that somehow tree rings grew remarkably fast AND carbon decay rate vastly increased AND pollen was produced and deposited ridiculously often every year in the lakes, AND unknown volcanic eruptions just happened to occur at precisely the right time during those hundreds to thousands of pollen laying events AND the KNOWN volcanic eruptions somehow didn't leave a layer in the ACTUAL correct layer AND a dozen other things happened JUST SO....

We got the expected result of carbon years which matched all the wrong answers?

The censored word is the name of a military post in Alabama which happens to contain a word synonymous with bum or butt. "A_senal"
 
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Strathos

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Certainly.

When I was in the military, I worked with electronic test equipment. People from other units would bring their equipment to us to be tested for accuracy...or calibration, as it is termed. So the standards set forth by the military that each piece of equipment has to be calibrated by another tool that is at least 4 times as accurate. So the equipment that we used had to be 4 times as accurate as the equipment being brought to us. This equipment with the higher accuracy is what we call the standard. So we would adjust, or calibrate, the other unit's equipment to match our standard. In turn, we would have to send our equipment to Redstone [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]nal, Alabama, where they had equipment used as standards for our equipment. And so on, until it was eventually traceable to NIST (National Institute of Science and Technology) in Colorado.

Of course, sometimes it wasn't always possible to obtain these proper calibrations, such as when we were deployed in mobile vans. So, we did something called "cross-checking." The idea is basically that we test our equipment against each other, in several different ways. So let's say we were testing the output voltage of a piece of equipment. We might measure that output voltage on an oscilloscope, a multimeter, and whatever else we had which was capable of it.

So, if we get the same measurement on each of the three measurement tools, we could be reasonably certain that all of those pieces of equipment were functioning normally, even though we didn't have access to standards. Because the more methods you have for making a measurement that agree with each other, the less likely it is that the measurement is wrong. The odds are pretty slim that the voltage output was incorrect, and the measuring tools were wrong in JUST SUCH a way that they all gave the same wrong answer, which just so happened to coincide with the expected value of output.

This idea is called consilience.

So, this is how we know that the decay rate of carbon has been consistent for at least the last 40-50k years. Carbon dating is calibrated primarily using dendrochronology (over the last 11-12k years). It is the science of counting the tree rings of specific types of trees which have been observed to grow one ring per year to determine how old the tree is. So tree rings are the standard by which we adjust the carbon dating (more on why it needs to be adjusted in a minute...it debunks one of your other "assumptions"). Yes, I know you have issues with dendrochronology too, but let me finish.

So now you may be asking. Ok, so what is the standard for dendrochonology? This is where the "cross-checks" come in. We don't really have a standard by which to test dendrochronology (at least not directly), so we have to test it against other methods. So this is what we do:

We have multiple tree chronologies (in different parts of the world) which go back to more than 10k years. If we carbon date a section of those chronologies, we can determine what the atmospheric carbon content was at that time (because it does change...we know this...we never assume that it didn't) by comparing the raw (uncalibrated) carbon date with the tree ring counts. So we use this knowledge to calibrate the carbon date.

From there, we do several things. 1. We test these calibrated carbon dates against items of historically KNOWN age. 2. We test the calibrated dates against annual sediment layers, called varves, deposited in a couple of lakes throughout the world (most notably Lake Sujitsu in Japan) 3. We test them against annual layers of ice cores, like has been spoken of here, in Greenland. 4. Against speleothems 5. against coral bands. 6. Against known volcanic eruptions with embedded ash layers within the varves, and cores, and against the abnormal tree rings during that time.

And we can plot all of these data points on a graph, and show how well they match with each other.

The results are remarkable.

So the question you are left with is, which is more likely? 1. That the carbon dating is accurate, or 2. that somehow tree rings grew remarkably fast AND carbon decay rate vastly increased AND pollen was produced and deposited ridiculously often every year in the lakes, AND unknown volcanic eruptions just happened to occur at precisely the right time during those hundreds to thousands of pollen laying events AND the KNOWN volcanic eruptions somehow didn't leave a layer in the ACTUAL correct sediment layer AND a dozen other things happened JUST SO....

...we got the expected result of carbon years which matched all the (equally) wrong answers?

It's reasons like this that lead me to consider only two possible options:

1. An old earth

2. Deliberate deception on the part of God

And for all the talk about 'Biblical Creationism', I find my own position to be more Biblical - because I can square option 1 with the Bible, but I can't do the same for option 2.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Oh no, it's the dumbest young Earther argument ever: the population growth argument. Wow, I'd hope you weren't going to spring that one but too late. ^_^
That one, together with the "entropy / 2nd law thermodynamics" argument.
 
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DogmaHunter

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1]The age of the earth is fact? I agree, how could it not be, my age is fact the earths age is fact. What is not fact is evolutionist beliefs about its age. Further the age of the earth according to naturalism/materialism is always changing, so is it fact today or 20 years ago or 20 years from know?

1. The age of the earth is not something that is handled in biology, but in geology and to an extent chemistry / physics. Scientists knew the earth was MUCH older then a few thousand years before evolution was a thing.

2. it is not "always" changing. It is rather improved in accuracy. As more evidence comes in, as we learn more. It's called progress. Also, if it changes, every time it is because new evidence showed it to be OLDER then previously believed.
The idea of a "young" earth has been discarded and refuted a LONG time ago.

4] Evolutionist are serial liars and frauds, and will say anything to get people like you to support them.

lol.... argument from conspiracy.

Yeah, okay.... 99.8% of biologists, geneticists, molecular biologists,... yep, all "liars and frauds". Uhu.


This is my favorite subject and my next thread is on this. I think I will tittle it "Evolutionist caught lying for their religion." Great stuff.

I bet it will be very entertaining.
 
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