Bible verses you believe clearly support universal salvation

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Neogaia777

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Sorry, I got confused there! I've now deleted my post. Talking to these ECT guys often makes me feel as bewildered as Alice in Wonderland, if not bewilderer.
You know the fact that you are getting so upset at or about something that you thought was said by me really says something about you you know...

It shows how very easily I could have pushed those buttons, if I really wanted to, so please don't despise my kindness to you right now, OK...

Anyway, I'm calling it a night.

Peace.

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Sorry, I got confused there! I've now deleted my post. Talking to these ECT guys often makes me feel as bewildered as Alice in Wonderland, if not bewilderer.
Do you feel a little bit like Neo in the Matrix, who felt a little bit like Alice, tumbling down the rabbit hole...?

Anyway, calling it a night...

God Bless!
 
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Hmm

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You know the fact that you are getting so upset at or about something that you thought was said by me really says something about you you know...

Anyway, I'm calling it a night.

Peace.

God Bless!

I'm not upset but definitely confused talking to you eternal torment guys. Who wouldn't be?
 
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Hmm

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Do you feel a little bit like Neo in the Matrix, who felt a little bit like Alice, tumbling down the rabbit hole...?

Anyway, calling it a night...

God Bless!

There is a similarity between the mental imprisonment of the Matrix and of ECT for sure.
 
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Ceallaigh

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It's Biblical...

Matthew 13:52- "Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old."

But that might be "even more cryptic", etc...?

God Bless!

Most of us Christians get revelations from God. And when we share them, most other Christians get it. Then there others who present stuff that most other Christians don't get, because it sounds foreign to them.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Sorry, I got confused there! I've now deleted my post. Talking to these ECT guys often makes me feel as bewildered as Alice in Wonderland, if not bewilderer.

Perfectly understandable.
 
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Neogaia777

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Most of us Christians get revelations from God. And when we share them, most other Christians get it. Then there others who present stuff that most other Christians don't get, because it sounds foreign to them.
So you reject it out of hand...

Makes sense I guess...

But I propose that maybe the eyes of your understanding maybe have not been fully enlightened yet maybe, etc...

Anyway, goodnight.
 
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Hmm

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So you reject it out of hand...

Makes sense I guess...

But I propose that maybe the eyes of your understanding maybe have not been fully enlightened yet maybe, etc...

Anyway, goodnight.

I thought you had gone to bed.

Oh, you're going now. Sweet dreams. Don't dream about eternal torture or anything but, if you do, remember it's not real.
 
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Neogaia777

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There is a similarity between the mental imprisonment of the Matrix and of ECT for sure.
The same is true of all the world's most popular ideas, including the now getting very popular universal reconciliation idea/crowd now, etc...

It's not biblical, but is of the world, etc...

And it is this world and its ideas and systems that are the most comparable to being stuck inside the Matrix, or the Matrix world, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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I thought you had gone to bed.

Oh, you're going now. Sweet dreams. Don't dream about eternal torture or anything but, if you do, remember it's not real.
I'll give you credit for the humor in that, that's for sure, lol, but yeah, I just laid down now, but, anyway, you probably already know by now that I don't think the fires are literal fires though, and I tried to describe to you what I thought it literally was/is by now also, so...

But, yeah, I got plans for the 4th tomorrow, so I do have to get some sleep, and you guys all have a good 4th of July too tomorrow, ok...

Goodnight/God Bless!
 
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Ceallaigh

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So you reject it out of hand...

Makes sense I guess...

But I propose that maybe the eyes of your understanding maybe have not been fully enlightened yet maybe, etc...

Anyway, goodnight.

I said something new that sounds alright to most Christians vs what sounds strange to most Christians. If it sounds strange to most Christians, then it probably isn't really from God.
 
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Neogaia777

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I said something new that sounds alright to most Christians vs what sounds strange to most Christians. If it sounds strange to most Christians, then it probably isn't really from God.
The other apostles said Paul's words and teachings were "hard to understand" and "difficult to comprehend", etc, and if it were not for all of Jesus miracles, then no one would have probably listened to Him either, because much of what He said wasn't very popular until it was made popular by Him, etc... and I already warned you about if that was going to be your way of determining truth as well, etc...

And I'm not telling you to "eat my flesh" or "drink my blood" or anything like that either, so...

So how many people do you think would have even listened to Jesus in the very first place if He was not performing miracles, etc...?

Do you think it would have been many, or maybe very, very few, etc...?

God Bless!
 
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Ceallaigh

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The other apostles said Paul's words and teachings were "hard to understand" and "difficult to comprehend", etc, and if it were not for all of Jesus miracles, then no one would have probably listened to Him either, because much of what He said wasn't very popular until it was made popular by Him, etc... and I already warned you about if that was going to be your way of determining truth as well, etc...

And I'm not telling you to "eat my flesh" or "drink my blood" or anything like that either, so...

So how many people do you think would have even listened to Jesus in the very first place if He was not performing miracles, etc...?

Do you think it would have been many, or maybe very, very few, etc...?

Often when someone says stuff that sounds off or strange or wrong to most Christians, and they get pushback, they then compare themselves to Jesus and Paul that way.
 
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RickReads

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Often when someone says stuff that sounds off or strange or wrong to most Christians, and they get pushback, they then compare themselves to Jesus and Paul that way.

They crucified me, what can I say. Paul didn't like it a bit.
 
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One problem these discussions go nowhere is that the NT images point in different directions. E.g. if you look up “fire” you’ll find that in Luke and John it suggests destruction:
  • Luke 3:9 - tree thrown into the fire
  • Luke 3:17 - chaff burned in fire
  • John 15:6 - branch thrown into the fire
I note that both passages in Luke are from John the Baptist, not Jesus. From Jesus, the tree that doesn’t bear fruit is cut down [13:9], but nothing is said about its disposition.

In Matthew there are parallels to this (more, since Matthew is really big on judgement): 3:10, 3:12, 7:19, 13:40. However there are others that might allow eternal torment:
  • 5:22 liable to the hell of fire
  • 13:42 and 50 furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing
  • 18:8 thrown into the eternal fire
  • 18:9 thrown into the hell of fire
  • 25:41 the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels
I think 25:41 is the clearest. But that depends upon your understanding of “eternal.” I think there are reasonable arguments to translate “eschatological fire” rather than “eternal fire.” That is, fire that occurs in the afterlife. See below

In Mark there is one reference. I would call it ambiguous
  • 9:43, 9:48 - hell, where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched
The reason I consider this ambiguous is that it is a clear reference to Is 66:24, where the unquenched fire and worm are consuming the dead bodies. The context is also a saying that seems obvious hyperbole: cutting off hands to avoid this fate.

I was going to stop with fire, but since Luke has no references attributed to Jesus, I think I need to try more. Say references to hell (which in my translation is just Gehenna). Hmmm… I’ve got a problem there too. Luke has only one reference (12:5) and it’s hypothetical: God has the authority to send you to hell, with no real description of what that means or for how long. Mark is the same passage referred to above for fire.

Matthew, gives us the same hypothetical reference as in Luke (5:22), and a parallel to Mark’s hyperbole (5:29-30, 18:9). In addition we have
  • 10:28 - fear God, who can destroy body and soul in hell
  • 23:3 - How can you escape being sentenced to hell?
Also kind of hypothetical, though I think the implication is that God sometimes does it.

All of the Synoptics have other imagery, whose literal meaning in terms of these discussions is a bit ambiguous. Here I’m working from a list in one of McLaren’s books, since a word search won’t find everything:
Matthew:
  • 5:13 - tasteless salt is trampled
  • 5:19 - called least in the Kingdom
  • 5:21 - put in prison until they pay the last …
  • 6:5 - no reward
  • 7:1 - will be judged as they judge
  • 7:13 - destruction
  • 7:21 - “away with you
  • 8:10 - outer darkness
  • 9:12 - not healed
  • 10:11 - fare worse than Sodom in the judgement
and it goes on. This is about 1/3 of the list

The list for Luke is shorter:
  • 6:35 - God is kind to them
  • 6:46 - house falls
  • 9:23 - lose life
  • 12:47 - beaten with many blows
  • 12:54 - in prison until they pay
  • 13:6 - cut down
  • 13:1, 22 - banished from God
  • 14:15 - miss banquet
  • 15:11 - miss party
  • 16:19 - Lazarus in Hades
  • 19:11 - take away mina from unfaithful
I should note that missing the party is a bit more serious than it sounds, since it’s pretty clearly the Messianic banquet.

The point of all of this is that there are a variety of images, but Matthew clearly has the most about punishment, and the references that are the most likely to be eternal torment are all from Matthew. Despite Matthew’s use of an ambiguous word for eternal (the unambiguous one is aidios), I suspect Matthew actually does believe in eternal torment.

In all of this, you can find plenty of ammunition for a variety of views. Universalism requires some pretty fancy interpretation though. You’d have to say that all of these images talk in different ways about accountability, but aside from a couple in Matthew, the punishment can reasonably be read as finite. For that to make sense you’d have to also use various passages that have been cited elsewhere in the thread suggest everyone eventually being saved.

———————

On eternal [aionios]:

Citing the Theological Dictionary of the NT, which is one of the major lexicons, in the NT aionion has several meanings
  • describing God
  • describing God’s possessions and gifts, e.g. 2 Cor 4:18, things that cannot be seen are eternal. In the OT this would be things like the Temple’s eternal gates
  • eschatological things, e.g. Heb 9:35, the eternal inheritance
  • a somewhat weakened chronological reference, i.e. not literally eternal, e.g. Rom 16:25, which refers to a mystery that was secret for “eternal ages.”
See also Ilaria L. E. Ramelli & David Konstan, Terms for Eternity. Αἰώνιος and ἀίδιος in Classical and Christian Authors - PhilPapers. (I’ve looked at the actual paper that this summarizes. You probably need academic library access to find it.)
 
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One problem these discussions go nowhere is that the NT images point in different directions. E.g. if you look up “fire” you’ll find that in Luke and John it suggests destruction:
  • Luke 3:9 - tree thrown into the fire
  • Luke 3:17 - chaff burned in fire
  • John 15:6 - branch thrown into the fire
I note that both passages in Luke are from John the Baptist, not Jesus. From Jesus, the tree that doesn’t bear fruit is cut down [13:9], but nothing is said about its disposition.

In Matthew there are parallels to this (more, since Matthew is really big on judgement): 3:10, 3:12, 7:19, 13:40. However there are others that might allow eternal torment:
  • 5:22 liable to the hell of fire
  • 13:42 and 50 furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing
  • 18:8 thrown into the eternal fire
  • 18:9 thrown into the hell of fire
  • 25:41 the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels
I think 25:41 is the clearest. But that depends upon your understanding of “eternal.” I think there are reasonable arguments to translate “eschatological fire” rather than “eternal fire.” That is, fire that occurs in the afterlife. See below

In Mark there is one reference. I would call it ambiguous
  • 9:43, 9:48 - hell, where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched
The reason I consider this ambiguous is that it is a clear reference to Is 66:24, where the unquenched fire and worm are consuming the dead bodies. The context is also a saying that seems obvious hyperbole: cutting off hands to avoid this fate.

I was going to stop with fire, but since Luke has no references attributed to Jesus, I think I need to try more. Say references to hell (which in my translation is just Gehenna). Hmmm… I’ve got a problem there too. Luke has only one reference (12:5) and it’s hypothetical: God has the authority to send you to hell, with no real description of what that means or for how long. Mark is the same passage referred to above for fire.

Matthew, gives us the same hypothetical reference as in Luke (5:22), and a parallel to Mark’s hyperbole (5:29-30, 18:9). In addition we have
  • 10:28 - fear God, who can destroy body and soul in hell
  • 23:3 - How can you escape being sentenced to hell?
Also kind of hypothetical, though I think the implication is that God sometimes does it.

All of the Synoptics have other imagery, whose literal meaning in terms of these discussions is a bit ambiguous. Here I’m working from a list in one of McLaren’s books, since a word search won’t find everything:
Matthew:
  • 5:13 - tasteless salt is trampled
  • 5:19 - called least in the Kingdom
  • 5:21 - put in prison until they pay the last …
  • 6:5 - no reward
  • 7:1 - will be judged as they judge
  • 7:13 - destruction
  • 7:21 - “away with you
  • 8:10 - outer darkness
  • 9:12 - not healed
  • 10:11 - fare worse than Sodom in the judgement
and it goes on. This is about 1/3 of the list

The list for Luke is shorter:
  • 6:35 - God is kind to them
  • 6:46 - house falls
  • 9:23 - lose life
  • 12:47 - beaten with many blows
  • 12:54 - in prison until they pay
  • 13:6 - cut down
  • 13:1, 22 - banished from God
  • 14:15 - miss banquet
  • 15:11 - miss party
  • 16:19 - Lazarus in Hades
  • 19:11 - take away mina from unfaithful
I should note that missing the party is a bit more serious than it sounds, since it’s pretty clearly the Messianic banquet.

The point of all of this is that there are a variety of images, but Matthew clearly has the most about punishment, and the references that are the most likely to be eternal torment are all from Matthew. Despite Matthew’s use of an ambiguous word for eternal (the unambiguous one is aidios), I suspect Matthew actually does believe in eternal torment.

In all of this, you can find plenty of ammunition for a variety of views. Universalism requires some pretty fancy interpretation though. You’d have to say that all of these images talk in different ways about accountability, but aside from a couple in Matthew, the punishment can reasonably be read as finite. For that to make sense you’d have to also use various passages that have been cited elsewhere in the thread suggest everyone eventually being saved.

———————

On eternal [aionios]:

Citing the Theological Dictionary of the NT, which is one of the major lexicons, in the NT aionion has several meanings
  • describing God
  • describing God’s possessions and gifts, e.g. 2 Cor 4:18, things that cannot be seen are eternal. In the OT this would be things like the Temple’s eternal gates
  • eschatological things, e.g. Heb 9:35, the eternal inheritance
  • a somewhat weakened chronological reference, i.e. not literally eternal, e.g. Rom 16:25, which refers to a mystery that was secret for “eternal ages.”
See also Ilaria L. E. Ramelli & David Konstan, Terms for Eternity. Αἰώνιος and ἀίδιος in Classical and Christian Authors - PhilPapers. (I’ve looked at the actual paper that this summarizes. You probably need academic library access to find it.)

What comes to my mind as I often say, whatever Satan is selling I don't want it. Let`s boycott him and all his sales reps.
 
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One problem these discussions go nowhere is that the NT images point in different directions. E.g. if you look up “fire” you’ll find that in Luke and John it suggests destruction:
  • Luke 3:9 - tree thrown into the fire
  • Luke 3:17 - chaff burned in fire
  • John 15:6 - branch thrown into the fire
I note that both passages in Luke are from John the Baptist, not Jesus. From Jesus, the tree that doesn’t bear fruit is cut down [13:9], but nothing is said about its disposition.

In Matthew there are parallels to this (more, since Matthew is really big on judgement): 3:10, 3:12, 7:19, 13:40. However there are others that might allow eternal torment:
  • 5:22 liable to the hell of fire
  • 13:42 and 50 furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing
  • 18:8 thrown into the eternal fire
  • 18:9 thrown into the hell of fire
  • 25:41 the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels
I think 25:41 is the clearest. But that depends upon your understanding of “eternal.” I think there are reasonable arguments to translate “eschatological fire” rather than “eternal fire.” That is, fire that occurs in the afterlife. See below

In Mark there is one reference. I would call it ambiguous
  • 9:43, 9:48 - hell, where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched
The reason I consider this ambiguous is that it is a clear reference to Is 66:24, where the unquenched fire and worm are consuming the dead bodies. The context is also a saying that seems obvious hyperbole: cutting off hands to avoid this fate.

I was going to stop with fire, but since Luke has no references attributed to Jesus, I think I need to try more. Say references to hell (which in my translation is just Gehenna). Hmmm… I’ve got a problem there too. Luke has only one reference (12:5) and it’s hypothetical: God has the authority to send you to hell, with no real description of what that means or for how long. Mark is the same passage referred to above for fire.

Matthew, gives us the same hypothetical reference as in Luke (5:22), and a parallel to Mark’s hyperbole (5:29-30, 18:9). In addition we have
  • 10:28 - fear God, who can destroy body and soul in hell
  • 23:3 - How can you escape being sentenced to hell?
Also kind of hypothetical, though I think the implication is that God sometimes does it.

All of the Synoptics have other imagery, whose literal meaning in terms of these discussions is a bit ambiguous. Here I’m working from a list in one of McLaren’s books, since a word search won’t find everything:
Matthew:
  • 5:13 - tasteless salt is trampled
  • 5:19 - called least in the Kingdom
  • 5:21 - put in prison until they pay the last …
  • 6:5 - no reward
  • 7:1 - will be judged as they judge
  • 7:13 - destruction
  • 7:21 - “away with you
  • 8:10 - outer darkness
  • 9:12 - not healed
  • 10:11 - fare worse than Sodom in the judgement
and it goes on. This is about 1/3 of the list

The list for Luke is shorter:
  • 6:35 - God is kind to them
  • 6:46 - house falls
  • 9:23 - lose life
  • 12:47 - beaten with many blows
  • 12:54 - in prison until they pay
  • 13:6 - cut down
  • 13:1, 22 - banished from God
  • 14:15 - miss banquet
  • 15:11 - miss party
  • 16:19 - Lazarus in Hades
  • 19:11 - take away mina from unfaithful
I should note that missing the party is a bit more serious than it sounds, since it’s pretty clearly the Messianic banquet.

The point of all of this is that there are a variety of images, but Matthew clearly has the most about punishment, and the references that are the most likely to be eternal torment are all from Matthew. Despite Matthew’s use of an ambiguous word for eternal (the unambiguous one is aidios), I suspect Matthew actually does believe in eternal torment.

In all of this, you can find plenty of ammunition for a variety of views. Universalism requires some pretty fancy interpretation though. You’d have to say that all of these images talk in different ways about accountability, but aside from a couple in Matthew, the punishment can reasonably be read as finite. For that to make sense you’d have to also use various passages that have been cited elsewhere in the thread suggest everyone eventually being saved.

———————

On eternal [aionios]:

Citing the Theological Dictionary of the NT, which is one of the major lexicons, in the NT aionion has several meanings
  • describing God
  • describing God’s possessions and gifts, e.g. 2 Cor 4:18, things that cannot be seen are eternal. In the OT this would be things like the Temple’s eternal gates
  • eschatological things, e.g. Heb 9:35, the eternal inheritance
  • a somewhat weakened chronological reference, i.e. not literally eternal, e.g. Rom 16:25, which refers to a mystery that was secret for “eternal ages.”
See also Ilaria L. E. Ramelli & David Konstan, Terms for Eternity. Αἰώνιος and ἀίδιος in Classical and Christian Authors - PhilPapers. (I’ve looked at the actual paper that this summarizes. You probably need academic library access to find it.)
For the reference in Mark, I don't believe it can be said to be obvious hyperbole. Certainly being dismembered in this life would be a preferrable state to an eternal torment so there's no reason to take Jesus' words as hyperbole.
 
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