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Bible says science cannot possibly know how many years since creation

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by dad, Feb 28, 2019.

  1. dad

    dad On the winning side Supporter

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    Why not? If bats were created on the same day as birds, or if they evolved/adapted after that time to the way there are now...why not!?
     
  2. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour."
    Matthew 27:45
     
  3. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

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    I take "all" truth to mean, "all" truth that you need to know, when you need to know it. It God's daily bread again. The disciples didn't know about germs causing disease (they were demons instead), or about protons and electrons. Hell is not 2 miles under the earth; that is the earth"s mantle made of molten granite. Et. Al.
     
  4. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    That's not proof.
     
  5. SelfSim

    SelfSim A non "-ist"

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    There is no 'actual' motion.
    Yet again, you expose your belief that there are 'actual' things, and then use that belief as the basis of evaluation for everything you perceive.
     
  6. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

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    This sounds like having a set of points on a cartesian coordinate system, not picking an origin because it doesn't really exist...and then not being able to define where anything is, because you won't define your origin. Which of course would be complete nonsense.

    Not all motion is completely arbitrary. You have to define the sun as the center of the solar system in order for the keplerian orbits to come out right mathematically.
     
  7. dad

    dad On the winning side Supporter

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    You want proof the bible says man can't know the beginning from the end?
     
  8. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Newbie Supporter

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    According to them they can tell just that or they wouldn’t be able to say the universe is expanding......

    Not to mention their pseudoscientific claims of blue and redshift from the CMB so that they can calculate our absolute motion against the background......


    As I agreed, all directions are “downstream”, or with the direction of expansion. There is no going against the current or expansion.....

    Except unlike a balloon surface we have ants above and below, so ants from all sides must also be expanding “towards” ants on the other side of the balloon expanding away from those above them too.....

    Yet this is not what is observed.....


    Afraid not.

    I just said the ants are accelerating with respect to one another and therefore time dilation must be accounted for....

    They claim the CMB is an external reference and we can calculate our absolute motion relative to it due to blue and redshift. I say it’s pseudoscience as there is no absolute reference or frame....


    When haven’t you?


    By only considering the ants absolute motion through space while claiming there is no such thing as absolute motion? Therefore motion is motion weather it is caused by you firing rockets or space itself accelerating you. Both impart energy. Hence Einstein’s realization that acceleration (whatever the cause) was the same as gravity and imparted energy and changed clocks and decay rates.....


    Usually those who fail to see that claiming the ants absolute motion is all that matters while claiming absolute motion doesn’t exist do indeed fail to see. Motion is motion if there is no absolute motion and the ant is in motion regardless of the cause.....
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  9. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    No, I want proof that the Bible's claim is accurate.
     
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  10. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Newbie Supporter

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    I actually exist, I don’t know about you....

    I know I’m spinning around the surface of the earth, which is orbiting the sun, which is orbiting the galaxy, which itself is moving through space, and am in actual motion. Not sure if you know this....
     
  11. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Newbie Supporter

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    Do we know the beginning or the end????

    Tell us.....
     
  12. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    It seems that you don't understand HOW they reach that conclusion, since if you did, you would understand how your claim here is mistaken.

    Let's go back to the ant on a balloon idea. Let's say you have several ants on the balloon, in various places, and they're just standing still. Now someone comes along and starts inflating the balloon. The first ant is going to see all the other ants getting further away. But each ant is going to see the same thing - that they are standing still and all the other ants are moving away. And that's exactly what we see when we look out at the distant stars and galaxies - all of them are moving away from us. So we are either in the very center of the universe - a mighty big coincidence if ever there was one! - or the universe is expanding, and when we look at the distant galaxies moving away, we are like one of the ants on the balloon watching all the other ants moving away from us.

    Yes, I'm sure that all of the cosmologists who have years of study and training and expertise have completely missed that it is pseudoscience, but you have figured it out perfectly...

    Yeah, ants drifting downstream doesn't have the same mechanics as ants on the surface of an expanding balloon.

    Actually, in post 60, I asked (with regards to your river analogy), "But the river is moving relative to the shore. If the universe is expanding, what is it moving relative to?"

    And in post 62, you answered, "Something, or it wouldn’t be moving, would it....."

    So even though you didn't specify what exactly the universe was moving in relation to, you clearly stated that it was moving in relation to "something."

    They claim the CMB is an external reference and we can calculate our absolute motion relative to it due to blue and redshift. I say it’s pseudiscience as there is no absolute reference or frame....

    Please, give me a single example when I said there must be something external to the universe which provides an absolute frame of reference.

    When did I say "absolute motion"? I have spoken of the motion of things relative to other things, but this is subjective motion, not relative motion.

    As I've said, I am not claiming there is absolute motion, nor am I claiming that there is some external reference point by which to measure this absolute motion. If you disagree, then please show me where I said so.
     
  13. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    Is this your argument? The Bible says something that is painfully obvious, therefore it's divinely inspired? If the Bible said that a square had four equal sides each joined at a right angle to form an enclosed shape, would you claim that as evidence of divine inspiration as well?
     
  14. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Newbie Supporter

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    But you keep ignoring the ants above and below and on all sides of the balloon.... all the way in to the center..... while claiming their is no center while your balloon expands from just that....

    Or their belief in what cosmological redshift is, is flawed?????

    A New Non-Doppler Redshift

    Funny how you only offer two options without considering the option that both the other two are incorrect.... Not just one or the other....

    Yes, the same ones that despite all their years of study and training couldn’t get one single model correct of the sun’s heliosphere which is right next door cosmologically speaking.... let alone millions of light years distant.... those same ones?????


    It has exactly the same mechanics. Both are in motion due to the cause.


    It’s there claim we are expanding, from an initial dense, hot state. So clearly we expanded away from this initial place in time and space. I just don’t claim to be able to calculate its position.....


    I never said you did. So are you disagreeing with the theory you keep trying to defend?


    Everything is moving “relative” to everything else. Including ants on your balloon. You without doubt stated it was only the ants motion through space that mattered. Absolute motion. Subjective motion would be the ant moving, through or with space...... Not one or the other.....


    Yes you did, you claimed only the ants movement through space was important. It’s absolute motion relative to space.

    Then you claim their is no absolute motion but it’s only subjective. Yet if the ants motion is subjective and not absolute then it’s motion regardless if it is with or through space is irrelevant. It is only it’s motion that matters

    I just ask you make up your mind what you actually believe....
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  15. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

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    Man, talk about can't win. This entire time the Bible gets sniped at as "false". This is a lie, that is false.... And then we point out something very basic...to the point that one is forced to admit, "okay maybe that is true"...and now tbe Bible is nothing special because it stated something obvious?
     
  16. Bungle_Bear

    Bungle_Bear Whoot!

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    It didn't state anything obvious. Biblical claim is that it is impossible for us to know the beginning or the end. The fact that we don't know it now does not make it impossible.

    So, support the biblical claim. Show how it is impossible that we can ever know the beginning or the end. Or you could eat humble pie, but that's not likely, is it?
     
  17. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

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    Then you and Kylie sort out what the issue is, and get back to us when you've got the same story straight. One says it is painfully obvious; the other says even THAT is not true. But at least I'm getting the consistent message that the Bible is just wrong. Just wrong, wrong, wrong.
     
  18. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Newbie Supporter

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    Or we could take the second option and you eat it since scientists clearly state they can think of no way we will ever know what happened at the beginning, let alone what will happen at the end....
     
  19. Bungle_Bear

    Bungle_Bear Whoot!

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    Uh huh. Citation please.
     
  20. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Newbie Supporter

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    Except I agreed with you. That you just can’t win because they wont even accept the simplest of truths, until the weeping and gnashing of teeth begins and all excuses are no more.

    She and I will never get the stories straight because as you have seen even the simplest and most obvious truth is ignored, let alone more complicated ones.

    Don’t jump to conclusions. Not everyone that replies to you is arguing against you.
     
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