• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Bible says science cannot possibly know how many years since creation

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by dad, Feb 28, 2019.

  1. Bungle_Bear

    Bungle_Bear Whoot!

    +1,864
    Agnostic
    Married
    1. You moved the goalposts, so no, I won't name one.
    2. You already admitted you don't know what allegory is so it would be pointless anyway.
     
  2. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Newbie Supporter

    +962
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Widowed
    US-Others
    And yet you haven't named one.....
     
  3. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Newbie Supporter

    +962
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Widowed
    US-Others
    And the ant accelerates outwards as the balloon expands and carries the ant with it..... as every ant on its surface accelerates away from every other ant on its surface as the balloon expands. As a boat is carried along with a non-turbulent flow of the river and sees no movement with respect to the river, yet still carries the increase in energy imparted by the flow of water. Yet those on the boat without being able to see land would swear they were stationary, since no motion could be detected relative to the flow of water (spacetime)....
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  4. dad

    dad On the winning side Supporter

    +1,183
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    If people try to minimize the reality of Scripture by tossing out the word allegory, it is appropriate to ask for an example....regardless of where you think imaginary goal posts are.
     
  5. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

    +9,780
    United States
    Other Religion
    Married
    How about the 80th Psalm?

    "Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it..."
     
  6. dad

    dad On the winning side Supporter

    +1,183
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    In that chapter it seems to be talking about the state of Israel, His people. Then it is compared to a flock, and etc.

    There are many spiritual truths we could derive from the comparisons. The main thing though is that I doubt someone would say that there was no Israel, no people of God. I enjoy poetic and spiritual comparisons that add depth to the description. In no way does this take away from the reality that there was a people in tough times and crying out for God in need.

    Now if someone was to try and take Adam and Eve and claim that was some allegory or that there was no actual tree, and etc etc etc...that is a very different thing. That would be taking away from the meaning and story.
     
  7. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

    +9,780
    United States
    Other Religion
    Married
    Look at the text I posted, Ps 80:8. God brought a real, actual grape vine from Egypt and dug a hole and planted it (besides whatever he did for the Hebrew people) or the 80th Psalm is a "foolish lying story."

    What would it take away? Be Specific.
     
  8. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

    +3,017
    Australia
    Atheist
    Married
    But time dilation in this analogy would be caused by the rate that the ant moves across the balloon's surface. If the ant is standing still, even while the balloon is inflating, the ant would not experience time dilation.
     
  9. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Newbie Supporter

    +962
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Widowed
    US-Others
    Yes the ant would, just as the river imparts it’s energy to the boat, so spacetime would impart it’s energy to the ant.

    The ant moving across the surface just adds another acceleration. As the boat applying power would add another acceleration to what already existed separate from the flow of the river.

    You only want to account for the energy from the additional acceleration, but refuse to account for the energy imparted by the flow of the river (spacetime).....

    You can’t feel the existing acceleration as Einstein tried to tell you in his enclosed elevator accelerating. The ant is simply moving along with the expansion and so has its energy imparted to him as he is carried along. Just like the boat on the river.
     
  10. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

    +3,017
    Australia
    Atheist
    Married
    But the river is moving relative to the shore. If the universe is expanding, what is it moving relative to?

    And we can imagine a situation where your boat in the river is chugging upstream at the same rate that the current carries it down, and so the boat remains still in relation to the shore. Your argument would suggest that I could do something similar in a rocketship - go out in space, and fly in just the right direction at just the right speed and remain still while the universe expands around me. But that would require an outside frame of reference, and Einstein showed that this idea of absolute motion is wrong, as there IS no fixed frame of reference.
     
  11. dad

    dad On the winning side Supporter

    +1,183
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    The whole chapter from verse one is about His people starting with Joseph in Egypt. The vine is Israel that came out of Egypt. There is no mystery there.

    Now when the bible and Jesus speak of Noah and the flood, it is not an allegory at all. There is no pretend ark or pretend water, or no mistaking that everyone on earth save those in the boat died. To try to make the story some allegory or fable takes away from the important event in biblical history.
     
  12. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Newbie Supporter

    +962
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Widowed
    US-Others
    Something, or it wouldn’t be moving, would it.....

    How’s that since your story is the river is flowing in all directions, so there is only downstream. Hey, it’s not my story.....

    And if you could, you would still be accelerating to keep stationary. And as Relativity told you, one can not tell which object is in actual motion, so you would never know.....

    Really? Then why do you keep insisting this frame is an absolute frame?????

    Why keep insisting that only the ants absolute motion through space would only matter?

    I sense confliction Kylie....
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  13. dad

    dad On the winning side Supporter

    +1,183
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    The OP talks of a bible verse explaining man cannot possibly comprehend the end or the beginning. How can you argue with that? That old pretense of some evidence (for heaven knows what) really grew old a long time ago. Sorry to have to break the news to you.
     
  14. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

    +3,017
    Australia
    Atheist
    Married
    But this hypothetical something is completely undetectable. So how can we tell that the universe is moving relative to this hypothetical reference?

    Actually, the river analogy was YOUR idea, not mine. I used the balloon analogy, and from the ant's perspective, confined to the surface of the balloon, the balloon is expanding in all measurable directions.

    You are the one who claimed there must be some external frame of reference which the universe is expanding relative to.

    When did I insist on an absolute frame of reference?

    I am trying to explain that moving through spacetime is not the same thing as spacetime itself expanding.

    I don't see how.
     
  15. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

    +3,017
    Australia
    Atheist
    Married
    I argue with that by saying that it is just a story and not real.

    If you disagree, prove me wrong.
     
  16. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

    +872
    Presbyterian
    Single
    I would say the burden of proof is in saying man CAN comprehend the beginning or end. Let alone hundreds of billions of galaxies.
     
  17. Bungle_Bear

    Bungle_Bear Whoot!

    +1,864
    Agnostic
    Married
    Burden of proof is with the one making the claim. OP says man cannot do something, so that's where the burden of proof lies.
     
  18. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

    +872
    Presbyterian
    Single
    Man not comprehending just one galaxy is kind of obvious. This is the creation of hundreds of billions of galaxies a long time before man was even around.
     
  19. dad

    dad On the winning side Supporter

    +1,183
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    It doesn't matter what people with no arguments argue for no apparent rhyme. Perhaps you could admit that the bible says that about man's ability to know?
     
  20. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

    +3,417
    United States
    Atheist
    Married
    In what instances?

    Are bats really birds?
     
Loading...