BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes, there it is. "(figuratively speaking)" A perceptive eternity. Rhetorical exaggeration.

Yes and no. I see it more as God saying 'I can wait forever, but can you hold out forever?'

 

[Saint Steven]

You're very generous in giving allowance for damnationists to make a case from scripture. There really is no Biblical doctrine of ECT, and it just doesn't stack up on any logical assessment against who God is. The foundations are demonstrably rotten, and the whole thing is a house of cards.

I agree, but what do we see here on the forum? The anti-UR folks show up with guns-a-blazing. Bible vs. Bible all over the place. They absolutely make a case. It doesn't mean I buy it, but they are certainly selling it.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes and no. I see it more as God saying 'I can wait forever, but can you hold out forever?'

Time, as it were, is definitely on his side.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I believe there is a biblical case for all three doctrines of the final judgment.

- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Universalism ​

Everyone chooses one. And they can all be defended biblically. They are all in conflict with each other though. Which is probably the case you are making.

Well, damnationism suffers from woefully insufficient scriptural support imho. There's only around 14 scriptures to prove it. And considering the consequences - well, a little more would be reasonably expected, especially as it goes against a whole raft of UR texts, and the rest.

If it was a legal claim you'd file a motion for summary dismissal on the grounds of 'no case to answer.' I agree you might not succeed, but only because the bar is set very low in our litigious societies. But you'd demolish them at trial in under a day, on submissions alone and without needing to call any witnesses. It's a shabby and misconceived claim lol.

 

[FineLinen]

[QUOTE="Saint Steven, post: 74573118, member: 411086"
There were trade-offs. If hell is not eternal, then neither is life eternal. That was a tough one to swallow. But it follows logically. Can't have one without the other.[/QUOTE]

Dear Steve: Working through the fathomless One is a challenge my old frame is not up to. I still struggle to define the last digit of Pi. The Author: oh never mind, I will stay with His handiwork which is so much more "simple".

Everlasting life is not mathematical but in the dimension of quality. "This is everlasting life that we may know You..."

Everlasting punishment is also not mathematical, it is a quality of punishment by the Father of all fathers. His chastisement is not an end in itself, but consummates in change and transformation & the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

"Even to this day, grace remains hard to swallow. Religiosity and moralism go down easier than free forgiveness." -Robert Farrar Capon

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Time, as it were, is definitely on his side.

Especially as He expedites the process in the endtimes by means of the tribulation and chucking the remnant into the lake of fire.

Which reminds me to finalise this long-awaited summary of the Book of Revelation UR narrative. It's slowly percolating lol.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Everlasting life is not mathematical but in the dimension of quality. "This is everlasting life that we may know You..."

Quite so, F.L., it's really 'the life eternal', if one's attitude is not towards heaven then it is in opposition and wrath abides, being a state of denial of grace. But as we know, the hound of heaven sniffs out those hiding in clefts and retrieves them for the White Horse rider.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, damnationism suffers from woefully insufficient scriptural support imho. There's only around 14 scriptures to prove it. And considering the consequences - well, a little more would be reasonably expected, especially as it goes against a whole raft of UR texts, and the rest.

If it was a legal claim you'd file a motion for summary dismissal on the grounds of 'no case to answer.' I agree you might not succeed, but only because the bar is set very low in our litigious societies. But you'd demolish them at trial in under a day, on submissions alone and without needing to call any witnesses. It's a shabby and misconceived claim lol.

Sure, but doesn't that infer that Damnationism HAS biblical support. Something has to HAVE support for that support to be "woefully insufficient". Right?

I understand that neither of us agree with it. But I think it helps our relationship with the other side to give them credit for their attempt at an argument. Leaving an open door to discuss it.

 

[Saint Steven]

Which reminds me to finalise this long-awaited summary of the Book of Revelation UR narrative. It's slowly percolating lol.

Quality work requires quality time. "You can't rush art." - The artist in Toy Story 2

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Sure, but doesn't that infer that Damnationism HAS biblical support. Something has to HAVE support for that support to be "woefully insufficient". Right?

I understand that neither of us agree with it. But I think it helps our relationship with the other side to give them credit for their attempt at an argument. Leaving an open door to discuss it.

Yes, it has a modicum of potential scriptural support, almost zero logical support, and several 1,000 pound gorillas of pastoral support.

Anyway, to be continued, that's me for the evening. Thanks for the chat bro. Grace and peace.

 

[Saint Steven]

[QUOTE="Saint Steven, post: 74573118, member: 411086"
There were trade-offs. If hell is not eternal, then neither is life eternal. That was a tough one to swallow. But it follows logically. Can't have one without the other.

Dear Steve: Working through the fathomless One is a challenge my old frame is not up to. I still struggle to define the last digit of Pi. The Author: oh never mind, I will stay with His handiwork which is so much more "simple".

Everlasting life is not mathematical but in the dimension of quality. "This is everlasting life that we may know You..."

Everlasting punishment is also not mathematical, it is a quality of punishment by the Father of all fathers. His chastisement is not an end in itself, but consummates in change and transformation & the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

"Even to this day, grace remains hard to swallow. Religiosity and moralism go down easier than free forgiveness." -Robert Farrar Capon [/QUOTE]
Yes. Believers have "eternal" life as a present possession, as I understand it.

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, it has a modicum of potential scriptural support...

I rest my case. - lol

 

[Charlie24]

Fellows, as I was reading up on universalism some things came into mind.

Peter who was crucified for his faith in Christ said he was not worthy to be crucified in the same manner as our Lord and requested to be crucified upside down.

Steven who was stoned to death for his faith, calling on the Lord to forgive them because they didn't know what they were doing.

And on and on, those who gave their lives for Christ.

Will Adolf Hitler and such people as this, as you say "in Gods love and mercy" enter into the same Kingdom of God?

If they do, this is not a just God and why should we serve Him?

 

[FineLinen]

has [/B]eternal life.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Dear Steve: Everlasting life is indeed in the present tense. That life flows from the Life Giver and is very much a knowledgeable experience..."these things have I written that you may know you have aionios zoe..."

All aspects of our God are in degrees of glory and in past present and future tenses. We are saved, we are being saved, we will be saved. Everything flowing from the Unlimited One has unlimited dimensions of grandeur!

Everything!

 

[FineLinen]

Will Adolf Hitler and such people as this, as you say "in Gods love and mercy" enter into the same Kingdom of God?

If they do, this is not a just God and why should we serve Him?

"Many made sinners" = "many made righteous"

Many = many

All = all

Some = some

Polus = polus

 

[Charlie24]

"Many made sinners" = "many made righteous"

Many = many

All = all

Some = some

Polus = polus

Oh, I see now. That explains it all!

Thanks for avoiding the question FL.

 

[mmksparbud]

The victimization comes with a personal threat to them. Once you truly believe in hell, you also truly believe you could end up there if you don't do everything in your power to avoid it. And seemingly, one of those transgressions is NOT believing in hell. So, they see us as a personal threat that may send them to hell, and a public threat to those we may succeed to convince; who would then not take the "proper" precautions to avoid hell. Which then makes us responsible for their damnation. In other words, they feel the need to stop us immediately, for everyone's good. That's what we are up against from my perspective.

They are waiting for us to bring an authoritative biblical directive for them to acknowledge or reject. As we know, this doesn't work that way. We are reverse engineering from the outcome we see (UR) toward the beginning. The best we can do is present the scraps that the translation editors overlooked, or left for us.

Willing victims? What other choice do they think they have? You and I and our brothers know better, but do they? Seems not. They are certainly grappling with cognitive dissonance. What we are saying must resonate on a low level with them. But their VIEW of the Bible is screaming at them to ignore us. They always return to the mantra of God being both love and justice. Which they understand as the extremes in his character instead of the tight relationship we see. We understand that God's love is just and God's justice is love. They see love for the believers and justice for the damned. Which would mean that God actually hates the damned. Why else would you decide to burn someone for eternity?

Sooooo very wrong---we do not see you as any threat at all---not to us. We see you as the threat you are to those who fall for your lie that there is salvation in the fire and that this fire will cleanse them of their sins when it is the fire that will destroy them and only Jesus that forgives sins. We see you as the threat to their salvation that you are. That they will not choose their savior now, while there is still time and think that they can do so after death. We see you as a threat to them and to yourselves. Certainly, none top us, for we know the truth----and the truth has set us free. It is you that are not free and in bondage to the lies of Satan. It is you that will end up not only lost yourselves, but leading others to their destruction as well and we pity you and pray for you. We know that God always does as He says. We trust and believe in Him and not in the foolish philosophies of men. No one burns for eternity. Each will pay---"according to their works." God is not unjust. And God hates sin, not the sinner, but the sinner has free will, that freedom entails rejecting the truth of salvation, that freedom entails rejecting all the love and beauty God has to offer. He will not force anyone by torturing them until they change their mind. God wants the heart --chosen out of love for Him, not out of fear of pain.

 

[FineLinen]

Plan A =

“By the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” -Plan A-

Alternate plan =

By the offence of one judgment came upon some men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon some men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience all were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall some be made righteous."

 

[Charlie24]

Fellows, as I was reading up on universalism some things came into mind.

Peter who was crucified for his faith in Christ said he was not worthy to be crucified in the same manner as our Lord and requested to be crucified upside down.

Steven who was stoned to death for his faith, calling on the Lord to forgive them because they didn't know what they were doing.

And on and on, those who gave their lives for Christ.

Will Adolf Hitler and such people as this, as you say "in Gods love and mercy" enter into the same Kingdom of God?

If they do, this is not a just God and why should we serve Him?

According to UR we can live like the devil himself, die, suffer partial judgement, and then enter into the Kingdom of God.

Not a bad deal!!!

 

[FineLinen]

And God hates sin, not the sinner, but the sinner has free will, that freedom entails rejecting the truth of salvation, that freedom entails rejecting all the love and beauty God has to offer. .

Dear lady: put on your specs.

"For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope."

Do you know what "not willingly" means?