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Charlie24

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[QUOTE="FineLinen, post: 74574375, member: 6357 I will however again say, mankind was made sinners by no choice of its own but by reason of Him who made it so.

God comes to make His blessings flow far as the curse is found![/QUOTE]

This is blasphemy!!! Man was made a sinner because he chose to sin.

So, you are saying God made man a sinner for no reason at all. Blasphemy!!!
 
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Der Alte

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No, the bible preaches ETERNAL HELL is the price to be paid for sin....RIGHT? That's what you believe....right? So, why isn't Jesus sitting in ETERNAL HELL, in your place, paying that price? And don't tell me He isn't there because he was perfect, or He was God, or 'whatever whatever'. Because every answer you can give does just one thing, it 'changes the price'. He isn't sitting in ETERNAL HELL being painfully tortured FOREVER because that was never the price to begin with.
I guess Jesus was lying in Matthew 25:46 when He said "these [on His left hand] shall go away into eternal punishment?"
Wait, I know. "Eternal" doesn't mean eternal and punishment does not mean punishment.
And if Jesus did not know what He was talking about in Matt 25:46, maybe He did not know what He was talking about in these other verses.

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
Try as I might I can't find any verses where Jesus says that He will save all mankind, righteous and unrighteous, alike, even after death or words to that effect.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Again---the Godfire falls on the lost--it does not harm those that are covered by the righteousness of Jesus. Said it over and over. Like Meshack, Abednego and Shadrack---it will not harm the saved---but it kills those not covered by the blood of Jesus. As the same fire killed the soldiers tossing the Jews into the furnace, but the fire did not harm the Jews. Godfire is hellfire to the lost.

Pardon me, but is that hellfire for the Lost Sheep that Our Savior is diligently looking for...but has not managed to find before the Judgment? He told us that if He were lifted up (which He was) then He would draw (some say "drag") all men to Himself. Your interpretation makes Him a failure, for He misses that 1% lost out of the 99% saved. I sincerely believe UR has far fewer things to explain away, but you have a big one there.
 
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FineLinen

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Adam1 sinned by direct rebellion to the Lord. All (the radical pas) are sinners by no choice of their own. Each broken wreck of Adam's seed are sinners by DNA. Yup, broken and depraved sinners by birth.

No more let sin and sorrow grow..He comes to make His blessings flow far as the curse is found.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Dear Laz: The word vanity encapsulates in exquisite form the results of Adam's broken union with the Lord of Glory.

Vanity = mataiotes =

Emptiness as a final result.

Empty>>> empty >>>empty!

Yes - I reminded of a season of prayer in which I emptied myself of myself. God then spoke to me, and lined me out about my life.
 
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Charlie24

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[QUOTE="FineLinen, post: 74574375, member: 6357 I will however again say, mankind was made sinners by no choice of its own but by reason of Him who made it so.

God comes to make His blessings flow far as the curse is found!

This is blasphemy!!! Man was made a sinner because he chose to sin.

So, you are saying God made man a sinner for no reason at all. Blasphemy!!![/QUOTE]

Let me explain something to you FL. God created man in His own image, perfect and without sin.

He didn't create robots to have no choice but to do His will. He created man to choose the things that are righteous. He wants us to serve Him in righteousness of our own free will.

God knew that mans free will would find a way to sin, so He set it right in front of him. Why?

Because free will is curious and will not always do the right thing. It will lead to sin which God cannot and will not tolerate in His Holy righteousness.

Once man learned that he will sin with free will, he found that God in His mercy gave us a way out of that sin. That's why the Perfect One paid the price for our sin, that we may be reconciled back to God.
 
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mmksparbud

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Pardon me, but is that hellfire for the Lost Sheep that Our Savior is diligently looking for...but has not managed to find before the Judgment? He told us that if He were lifted up (which He was) then He would draw (some say "drag") all men to Himself. Your interpretation makes Him a failure, for He misses that 1% lost out of the 99% saved. I sincerely believe UR has far fewer things to explain away, but you have a big one there.


He knows where they are, He found them---they have refused to come home with Him. They have refused the blood of Jesus. God will not force the will. He will not drag them home against their will. He will not light them on fire "until they change their minds!" In this life He has given everyone every chance to know Him and to follow Him. He honors their choice. God never fails---it is our choice. You do not seem to comprehend what free will is. You seem to think no one could possibly refuse to live in God's world---they do--just like Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels did--while in heaven. That is not God's failure---it is freewill. He loves enough to let them walk away from Him---apparently you do not believe in that. If your wife wants to leave you, I guess you're the type that will drag her kicking and screaming back home and beat her until she changes her mind----how sweet.
 
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Saint Steven

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Fellows, as I was reading up on universalism some things came into mind.

Peter who was crucified for his faith in Christ said he was not worthy to be crucified in the same manner as our Lord and requested to be crucified upside down.

Steven who was stoned to death for his faith, calling on the Lord to forgive them because they didn't know what they were doing.

And on and on, those who gave their lives for Christ.

Will Adolf Hitler and such people as this, as you say "in Gods love and mercy" enter into the same Kingdom of God?

If they do, this is not a just God and why should we serve Him?
That's a good question, and well stated.
Now you are asking questions instead of giving ignorant rebuttals. Kudos.

Sin is sin. What is the penalty for sin? Does the penalty change based on the sin?
Do those who have worked harder, or given more receive a different reward?

More directly, no, Adolf Hitler doesn't automatically get the same reward as the Apostle Peter at death. They both will face judgment. Peter will have stuff to deal with and Hitler will have stuff to deal with. (lots more stuff, obviously) Will they both be restored in the end? Yes. Is that fair and just? Grace says, yes.

Matthew 20:12
‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
 
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Saint Steven

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According to UR we can live like the devil himself, die, suffer partial judgement, and then enter into the Kingdom of God.
Not true of UR.
Please post true statements. Thanks.
 
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mmksparbud

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That's a good question, and well stated.
Now you are asking questions instead of giving ignorant rebuttals. Kudos.

Sin is sin. What is the penalty for sin. Does the penalty change based on the sin?
Do those who have worked harder, or given more receive a better reward?

More directly, no, Adolf Hitler doesn't automatically get the same reward as the Apostle Peter at death. They both will face judgment. Peter will have stuff to deal with and Hitler will have stuff to deal with. (lots more stuff, obviously) Will they both be restored in the end? Yes. Is that fair and just? Grace says, yes.

Only if they accepted Jesus before they died---there is no cleansing from sin in the 2nd death---it us not corrective---it is punishment met. Where does it day anyone comes out of the 2nd death unto life eternal with God?
 
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UR rubbish. Please show me one verse, two or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, unequivocally say that they will save all mankind, righteous and unrighteous, alike, even after death?
While I am waiting for the nonexistent verse(s) let us read what Jesus said on the subject.
Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?
In Mark 9:43-48 when Jesus said "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Was He concerned about the life span of worms or about the fate of mankind? If, as UR argues, sinners will be miraculously reconciled what difference does the life of the worms make?
.....If sinners are reconciled right out of "hell where the fire is not quenched and their worm does not die." will they be instantly filled with love for God who put them there in the first place? Why doesn't that happen when people put in prison in this life?
Scripture please.

QED. The usual grab-bag of a handful of mistranslated isolated scriptures in an effete attempt to prove the unprovable.

You'd like scriptures from Jesus' own mouth proving God saves after physical death? Try these:

When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (Rev 1:17-18)

"THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, (Lk 4:18)

The 'keys of death' unequivocally implies a locked holding place, like a prison. We've seen Jesus raise the dead, and here he unequivocally states that he'll release the captives - not selectively, but en masse, and unconditionally.

I know you reject Paul's teachings on the subject (and therefore the Holy Spirit also), so will you now reject Jesus' teachings as well?


Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Why, because he's illustrating the principle 'as ye judge, so will ye be judged', turning the tables on the Pharisees, a method he often uses. That's why they stop asking him smart-alecky questions after a while.

And how will you escape the wrath to come der Alter? Just saying Lord Lord and doing many mighty works in his name may not get you there.

If, as UR argues, sinners will be miraculously reconciled what difference does the life of the worms make?

The worms are oral tradition, as I said Jesus only refers to them for the purposes of holding a mirror up to the hypocrisy of religious elitism.

.If sinners are reconciled right out of "hell where the fire is not quenched and their worm does not die." will they be instantly filled with love for God who put them there in the first place? Why doesn't that happen when people put in prison in this life?

It does happen to ppl who get saved in prison. We're all in prison til we get saved, then we're freed, our hearts and minds changed and eyes opened. Doesn't mean we do an Onesimus and make a break for it.
 
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Charlie24

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That's a good question, and well stated.
Now you are asking questions instead of giving ignorant rebuttals. Kudos.

Sin is sin. What is the penalty for sin. Does the penalty change based on the sin?
Do those who have worked harder, or given more receive a better reward?

More directly, no, Adolf Hitler doesn't automatically get the same reward as the Apostle Peter at death. They both will face judgment. Peter will have stuff to deal with and Hitler will have stuff to deal with. (lots more stuff, obviously) Will they both be restored in the end? Yes. Is that fair and just? Grace says, yes.
Sin is sin, that I agree!

The difference between Peter and Hitler is that Peter repented of his sin and Hitler did not (supposedly, let's say he didn't).

Would Hitler have been saved if he repented? Absolutely YES. But if he didn't he will spend eternity in hell.

And your translation of hell will not change that fact.
 
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Saint Steven

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Sin is sin, that I agree!

The difference between Peter and Hitler is that Peter repented of his sin and Hitler did not (supposedly, let's say he didn't).

Would Hitler have been saved if he repented? Absolutely YES. But if he didn't he will spend eternity in hell.

And your translation of hell will not change that fact.
Keep reading.

Sin is sin. What is the penalty for sin? Does the penalty change based on the sin?
Do those who have worked harder, or given more receive a different reward?

Matthew 20:12
‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
 
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So Jesus was the obedient One and we don't have to be obedient to Him?

We can raise all the hell we want in life and reject the obedient One and after a partial judgement, we will enter into His presence?

We love him cause he loved us first. The more corrupt you are at the end, the more painful it will probably be to be confronted with a life lived in vain.

Does history show the threat of eternal damnation led to anything but evil?
 
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Charlie24

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Keep reading.

Sin is sin. What is the penalty for sin? Does the penalty change based on the sin?
Do those who have worked harder, or given more receive a different reward?

Matthew 20:12
‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

Taken out of context yet again! Read it again.

Our Lord is teaching Grace, we do not obtain salvation from Him by merit.

Read down to vs. 16 "many shall be called but few chosen.

Those who think their work for Christ will get them to heaven. It will not, many are called but few are chosen.

Only those who accept Christ by faith alone will be chosen.
 
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Charlie24

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We love him cause he loved us first. The more corrupt you are at the end, the more painful it will probably be to be confronted with a life lived in vain.

Does history show the threat of eternal damnation led to anything but evil?
But the pain will subside, and in the end that person will be with Christ.

Beware of false doctrine my friend
We love him cause he loved us first. The more corrupt you are at the end, the more painful it will probably be to be confronted with a life lived in vain.

Does history show the threat of eternal damnation led to anything but evil?
There would be no eternal damnation if not for evil.
 
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FineLinen

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There would be no eternal damnation if not for evil.

There is "everlasting punishment">>>there is "everlasting destruction". There is NO "eternal damnation"!

Search= "eternal damnation".

There is no eternal damnation found. Please modify search query and try again.
 
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Der Alte

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QED. The usual grab-bag of a handful of mistranslated isolated scriptures in an effete attempt to prove the unprovable.
Meaningless rubbish. If anything is mistranslated PROVE it, don't just repeat it over and over .
You'd like scriptures from Jesus' own mouth proving God saves after physical death? Try these:
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (Rev 1:17-18)
Help me out here where does Jesus, Himself, says He will save the unrighteous after death?
Luk 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​
The word translated captives is literally "prisoners of war." These are all part of Jesus' ministry in this world. It says nothing about people after death
The 'keys of death' unequivocally implies a locked holding place, like a prison. We've seen Jesus raise the dead, and here he unequivocally states that he'll release the captives - not selectively, but en masse, and unconditionally.
Assumptions and presuppositions. Please explain to me how something that is "implied" is "unequivocal?"
I know you reject Paul's teachings on the subject (and therefore the Holy Spirit also), so will you now reject Jesus' teachings as well?
Wrong! I reject where folks like you reinterpret the words of Jesus, to fit your presumptions about the writings of the disciples. Here you blew off the seven verses I quoted as being mistranslated. Strange how the verses which you think support UR are not mistranslated in the same Bible.
Why, because he's illustrating the principle 'as ye judge, so will ye be judged', turning the tables on the Pharisees, a method he often uses. That's why they stop asking him smart-alecky questions after a while.
More assumptions/presuppositions.
And how will you escape the wrath to come der Alter? Just saying Lord Lord and doing many mighty works in his name may not get you there.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.""Who art thou that judgeth another man's servant?"
The worms are oral tradition, as I said Jesus only refers to them for the purposes of holding a mirror up to the hypocrisy of religious elitism.
Yet more assumptions/presuppositions. Not oral tradition, scriptures. Perhaps you should stick to reading what the Bible says instead of relying on your own assumptions/presuppositions.
Nothing Jesus said contradicted what the Jews taught about hell.
Isa_66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​
It does happen to ppl who get saved in prison. We're all in prison til we get saved, then we're freed, our hearts and minds changed and eyes opened. Doesn't mean we do an Onesimus and make a break for it.
Luk 4:18-19 is Jesus ministry in this world, it says nothing about going to hell.
 
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FineLinen

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‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. -Dr. Marvin Vincent-

Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities.

There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3. The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.

It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.

It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject’s life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. “The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum.”

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, ‘o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.

They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting.

Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God’s relations to time.

God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect. -Dr. Marvin Vincent-

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.

-Part 1 of 2-
 
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