BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[Saint Steven]

And what makes you think angels will bind anyone hand and foot before they are thrown into the lake of fire?
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

That's sounds pretty instantaneous to me. Nobody being bound hand and foot there.

That was my recollection of how it was done. I can't find a reference, so I revised my post. Thanks.

Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Saint Steven]

Those who reject deserve the judgement of God. They have made a choice of their own free will to reject Gods sacrifice for mans sin.

So you are claiming that all of the countless billions had the opportunity to make a free will choice and decided to reject Christ?

 

[Saint Steven]

This is a pretty bold statement coming from a believer of doctrine that was declared heresy in the 5th century and only making a comeback from the 19th century.

Suddenly you are an expert on the history of the greater hope? (went online to dig up some dirt) - lol

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Truth is the first casualty of war.

Do you really believe that some nuts are too tough for God to crack?

He can have the entire Bolshevik Party volunteering to be His footstools faster than you can say 'the holohoax is a fraud'.

Because every man's heart bears the manufacturer's name.

 

[Hillsage]

Dear Sage: These threads are filled with individuals who think they have somehow made a decision to follow Jesus.

I know, and scripture warned us they would come. The good seed gospel is what the kingdom was founded on. But a few hundred years later the bad seed 'non good news gospel' came from the devil. And now we have tares and wheat growing together in the church.

Then there are those among us who dokeo their way along, not knowing His ways in the slightest degree. We may know all the nuauces, and never hear His voice, "Follow Me".

I'm going to disagree with your "in the slightest degree" comment. They know very well how imitate his ways in the greatest degree. That's why the church has the warning concerning;

2CO 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, Deut.30:19

Nothing has changed from the old to the new!

Yes, and the Israelites regularly failed to choose life, so God had to constantly chastise them, even divorcing Israel and pronouncing a blood curse on the house of Jekiniah, before ultimately sending in the saviour (as prophesied in the Gospel according to Isaiah (42-53) and elsewhere).

Israel fails in its mission to be a light to the gentiles, gets taken into captivity, so God restores their fortunes via Cyrus and promises to send in His handpicked specialist ie Jesus, who proceeds to establish an eternal Kingdom, by the light of which all the nations will walk.

The message? Don't worry, I know you're a bunch of hopeless blind sinners, but I loves you with such passion that you can trust I'll take total care of it...and you'll never see him coming. That's why Gabriel duly notifies us of the good news of universal application. Nothing is more unstoppable than the Father's love.

 

[Charlie24]

Suddenly you are an expert on the history of the greater hope? (went online to dig up some dirt) - lol

It wasn't hard for you to figure that out. lol

Man, I decided to read up on it, no dirt in mind and that was the first thing I read.

Of course I had to run with it, I think you would have too.

 

[mmksparbud]

Mat_18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Luk_19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
2Co_4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
Mat_5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus came to seek the lost--we are to seek the lost---who are the lost?

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You sin, you die---period. That is the penalty of sin---death. Those are the lost and everyone has sinned. So what is the good news? You need not die! Jesus has paid the price. The bible never calls the sinners---the temporarily misplaced---they are lost. Can't be found, A lost sheep will die, that is all there is to it, they can't survive on their own. The sinner has no way of surviving the death sentence. There is not one single thing he can do to save Himself. It is only through the blood of Jesus that we can be "found"--saved. There is nothing else that can save the sinner. There is no fire that cleanses---there is only the blood of Jesus. And it must be applied before the 1st death. Then we are resurrected unto life. Without that blood, we are resurrected unto the 2nd death. It is not we are resurrected unto the 2nd chance at life through a fire. Jesus Christ alone is salvation---there is no fire that loves you, there is no fire that forgives your sins, there is no fire that sends your sins to the bottomless ocean---that takes a living, breathing, thinking, loving God, not a mindless, unfeeling explosion of chemicals. There is no love in fire. Fire can not forgive and forget. Fire will devour, consume destroy until there is nothing left. No one comes out of that fire for there is no love there. All the love, all the forgiveness lies within the blood of Jesus, because it comes from the living, breathing God who shed it for you. It Is Jesus alone that can save---nothing and nobody else.
Anyone who says anything else is speaking the lies of Satan Himself---

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

God says you will die---then that is exactly what will happen. God says only the blood of Jesus can save you---that is exactly what He means. If He meant that if you go through the lake of fire it will cleanse you of your sins---HE WOULD HAVE SAID THAT!! He never did. The 2nd death is final, permanent, not reversible. You will surely die.

this is not what will happen in the fire:

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

You will not come out of the 2nd death knowing anything. God will do as He says. The wages of sin is desath, those that are resurrected at the 2nd resurrection will have the 2nd death. He never said anywhere, you will burn until you change your mind and come and follow me.

 

[Saint Steven]

It seems that the human desire for revenge is projected as what God's justice should be like.

 

[Saint Steven]

It wasn't hard for you to figure that out. lol

Man, I decided to read up on it, no dirt in mind and that was the first thing I read.

Of course I had to run with it, I think you would have too.

Scum is easy to find. It floats on top.
Read this instead.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Objection 1: It would seem that by God's mercy all punishment of the damned, both men and demons, comes to an end. For it is written (Wis. 11:24): "Thou hast mercy upon all, O Lord, because Thou canst do all things." But among all things the demons also are included, since they are God's creatures. Therefore also their punishment will come to an end.

Reply to Objection 1: God, for His own part, has mercy on all. Since, however, His mercy is ruled by the order of His wisdom, the result is that it does not reach to certain people who render themselves unworthy of that mercy, as do the demons and the damned who are obstinate in wickedness. And yet we may say that even in them His mercy finds a place, in so far as they are punished less than they deserve condignly, but not that they are entirely delivered from punishment.

... just as the good angels were made happy through turning to God, so the bad angels were made unhappy through turning away from God. Therefore if the unhappiness of the wicked angels comes at length to an end, the happiness of the good will also come to an end, which is inadmissible.

As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xxi) Origen [*Cf. FP, Question [64], Article [2]] "erred in maintaining that the demons will at length, through God's mercy, be delivered from their punishment." But this error has been condemned by the Church for two reasons. First because it is clearly contrary to the authority of Holy Writ (Apoc. 20:9,10): "The devil who seduced them was cast into the pool of fire and brimstone, where both the beasts and the false prophets [*Vulg.: 'the beast and false prophet,' etc.] shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever," which is the Scriptural expression for eternity. Secondly, because this opinion exaggerated God's mercy in one direction and depreciated it in another. For it would seem equally reasonable for the good angels to remain in eternal happiness, and for the wicked angels to be eternally punished.

ST Supp Q. 99 — Aquinas 101

St Augustine, when he was on fire, he really soared like an eagle. Alas, this is not one of those moments.

By this reply he seeks to double-guess God's wisdom and moreover equates condign with eternal punishment. Now 'Sin' itself (the beastie that crouches at our door waiting) may deserve eternal damnation, but a man and his 'sinning' are temporal and limited in consequence, so an eternal punitive sentence for the sin of rejecting God's love is plainly infinitely disproportional. We should rejoice at this.

Look dude, God is One, meaning at very least that His divine attributes are not in tension. He's never faced with an internal conflict, as in 'I'd like to give this guy a pass but I'm required have to smite him first' smh. Such a sad reductive view.

God is love, meaning that all His other attributes - wisdom, justice, grace, perfection, sovereignty, wrath, life, truth, wealth etc - are all aspects of that father's love. So the endgame is salvation, Yahushua is the omega. God's love is displayed in His commitment to go to hell and back for us even while we try to murder Him, not just once, but always and at any moment.

And He's capable of separating the sin from the sinner - He is a refiner's fire, a consuming fire, separating sheep and goats, and so on. So who will deliver us from these bodies of death?

Add it up man. God will destroy sin, deliver the sinner as a new man in Christ, repentant and ready for healing. Amen and praise the Lord.

 

[Charlie24]

Scum is easy to find. It floats on top.
Read this instead.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

OK, I'll read it and give you my honest response.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I think those speaking out against the greater hope today are victims.
The real perpetrators were the ones that gave us a bogus Bible translation and lexicon.

Ok, victims of the devil's deceptions via corrupt translations (Item 2). But also, willing victims, because when shown the inescapable logic that every eternally damned soul must correspondingly represent a failure of God's will and Jesus' mission, they refuse to repent. So pride and stubborn self-righteousness (Item 1)?

 

[mmksparbud]

It seems that the human desire for revenge is projected as what God's justice should be like.

No---God has His justice and He says what it is. There are those who want to believe God doesn't really mean what He says. That is what Satan said to Adam and Eve---you shall not surely die. He lied---He still lies.

 

[Charlie24]

OK, I'll read it and give you my honest response.

Wait a minute, I spoke to soon.

I don't have 3 or 4 days to read this 1000 page volume of books.

Give me something shorter and to the point. The shorter the better, I get bored easily.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You really do like this devouring by fire stuff. Here's another that might interest you:

These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. (Rev 11:4-5)

Not the fatal firemouthy lampstands and olive tree witnesses! Won't those guys give it a rest?

But seriously, do you think figures of speech are being used here? Rev 1:20 tells us the 7 lampstands are the 7 churches of God. I'm guessing the 2 olive trees are 2 of the tribes of Israel, or Israel and Judah possibly. That's for another thread.

So unless our friendly megachurches are now investing in heavy-duty military hardware (a la the WWII firebombing of Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki), I suggest you might want to curb your enthusiasm on a strict and myopic literal interpretation of Rev 20:9.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This is a pretty bold statement coming from a believer of doctrine that was declared heresy in the 5th century and only making a comeback from the 19th century.

Ah, but you see you're labouring under a misapprehension there. Universalism was never condemned by the 5th Ecumenical Council. The devil's minion the Emperor Justinian tried to have it condemned but the Pope and many other bishops refused to attend, and never signed off Justinian's anathema, as required in order to give them legal effect.

So now most ppl believe the lie straight from the devil that UR was condemned. The devil needed to break UR in order to carnalise the faith, and he did as a matter of practice, though not of canon law. Welcome to the dark ages and have a nice day.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Wait a minute, I spoke to soon.

I don't have 3 or 4 days to read this 1000 page volume of books.

Give me something shorter and to the point. The shorter the better, I get bored easily.

This brother has a number of short and to-the-point primer vids on various UR questions that you might find digestible.
The Total Victory of Christ

 

[mmksparbud]

You really do like this devouring by fire stuff. Here's another that might interest you:

These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. (Rev 11:4-5)

Not the fatal firemouthy lampstands and olive tree witnesses! Won't those guys give it a rest?

But seriously, do you think figures of speech are being used here? Rev 1:20 tells us the 7 lampstands are the 7 churches of God. I'm guessing the 2 olive trees are 2 of the tribes of Israel, or Israel and Judah possibly. That's for another thread.

So unless our friendly megachurches are now investing in heavy-duty military hardware (a la the WWII firebombing of Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki), I suggest you might want to curb your enthusiasm on a strict and myopic literal interpretation of Rev 20:9.

You are of course, free to trivialize what God says throughout His bible. It is not a matter of just the verses you quoted. It is in the entire bible and your view is not in there. God laid down what His view is from the very first---and I started there also---with Adam and Eve and the first lie of Satan. It worked then, it is still working now---you will not die. Satan doesn't care how he gets anyone to not trust in what God says, just as long as they do so.
Again---fire is not a caring entity. It is a chemical reaction and it has no heart, no love, no forgiveness--it is not able to cleanse anyone from sin, Jesus alone can do that. Fire doesn't care about you, fire has no memory of your character, what you did, what you thought. Only The Godhead can do any of that. God thinks, feels, talks, knows everything about you. If you want to turn fire into some sort of entity with a heart and a brain that can feel and think, you have the right to do so---you can believe Mickey Mouse is God if you want. It won't change what God said at all---not in the slightest and you can quote whatever man you want--it won't change what God has said. It won't make fire able to forgive sins or cleanse from sins or do anything else than to consume what is placed in it. That is it's function. The ability to cleanse from sin, to forgive, to caste your sins into the deepest ocean and forget them, to love you so much that He died for---only God can do that--not any fire.

 

[Hillsage]

My GOOD NEWS gospel brothers. If you are unable to discern a difference between black and white, apples and oranges and adios from aionios, let me share what we all should know to defend the truth from any who would have you stand on the shoulders of the lying scribes of old, as well as having you align with the pharisees of today.

KJV ROM 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world/aionios began,

Now it is plain to see that the lying pen had to cover up that the word translated as "WORLD" in this KJV verse plainly had a "began" or beginning. Hmmm, not exactly OUR DEFINITION of eternal/adios is it? Another problem WE FACE is the fact that the word translated as "world/aionios" above is also a PLURAL adjective in the Greek. Scholars ought to parse that out a little more consistently for true clarity in my opinion. IOW, just how 'many' 'worlds' or aionios/eternities do the agreeing scholars ,or pharisees of today, believe in anyway?

So what does grammatically consistent YOUNG'S have to say to US concerning this dilemma?

YLT ROM 16:25 And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times/chronos of the ages/eonion having been kept silent,

Hmmm, seems to say that the plural adjective word aionios pertains to "the times/chronos" of "AGES" past which were pertaining to the secret revelation to come in a future age/aion. Now we see things better don't WE? The plural adjective aionios is talking about God's plan of the ages which we UNI/UR brothers believe in and the deceivers would have us not believe in.

YLT Rom 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith -

The "age-during God" Oh my, what are we to do with that? Why of course, we recognize just what God is 'DOING' in that age, in the verse above. And what was 'that'? Sounds like He was commanding the prophetic writings of the OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS prophesying the coming of the messiah during that age. Hmmm, so the singular adjective form of aionios is now referring to just 'one age'.

God obviously didn't have prophets writing for all of eternity/aionios as the ETERNAL HELLERS believe that word ALWAYS means.

So lets just end up, this last IN CONTEXT verse with the root Greek word from which all their aionios Augustinian nonsense comes from and see what the YLT consistently translates.

27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to him {be} glory to the ages/aion. Amen.

Amen indeed brothers...to Jesus Christ be the glory in all the ages/aioniAs. since this word was the PLURAL of 165 aion.