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BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

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Der Alte

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Well, damnationism suffers from woefully insufficient scriptural support imho. There's only around 14 scriptures to prove it. And considering the consequences - well, a little more would be reasonably expected, especially as it goes against a whole raft of UR texts, and the rest.
If it was a legal claim you'd file a motion for summary dismissal on the grounds of 'no case to answer.' I agree you might not succeed, but only because the bar is set very low in our litigious societies. But you'd demolish them at trial in under a day, on submissions alone and without needing to call any witnesses. It's a shabby and misconceived claim lol.
UR rubbish. Please show me one verse, two or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, unequivocally say that they will save all mankind, righteous and unrighteous, alike, even after death?
While I am waiting for the nonexistent verse(s) let us read what Jesus said on the subject.
Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?
In Mark 9:43-48 when Jesus said "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Was He concerned about the life span of worms or about the fate of mankind? If, as UR argues, sinners will be miraculously reconciled what difference does the life of the worms make?
.....If sinners are reconciled right out of "hell where the fire is not quenched and their worm does not die." will they be instantly filled with love for God who put them there in the first place? Why doesn't that happen when people put in prison in this life?
Scripture please.
 
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Charlie24

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I would suggest to all who read this post, heed the title to this thread, "Beware of Universal Reconciliation."

The Bible DOES NOT teach a partial judgement for sin!!!

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
 
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FineLinen

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According to UR we can live like the devil himself, die, suffer partial judgement, and then enter into the Kingdom of God.

iu


Please direct us to where you have grasped such a silly assumption?
 
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FineLinen

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Perfect=

Brought to consummation or completeness; completed.

Not defective nor redundant.

Having all the properties or qualities requisite to its nature and kind;

Without flaw, fault, or blemish;

Without error; mature; whole; pure; sound; right; correct.

A complete and satisfactory close in harmony.

A tense which expresses an act or state completed.

To make perfect; to finish or complete, so as to leave nothing wanting; to give to anything all that is requisite to its nature and kind.

Rectitude=

Straightness.

Rightness of principle or practice.

Exact conformity to truth by Divine laws.

Uprightness of mind.

Uprightness/ integrity/ honesty/ justice.

Right judgment.

Assured probity.

High ideal.

Incorruptibility.

Pure/stainless/unimpeachable/worthy.

"Made sinners" =

kathistēmi hamartōlos

"Made righteous" =

kathistēmi dikaios

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
 
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Charlie24

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Perfect=

Brought to consummation or completeness; completed.

Not defective nor redundant.

Having all the properties or qualities requisite to its nature and kind;

Without flaw, fault, or blemish;

Without error; mature; whole; pure; sound; right; correct.

A complete and satisfactory close in harmony.

A tense which expresses an act or state completed.

To make perfect; to finish or complete, so as to leave nothing wanting; to give to anything all that is requisite to its nature and kind.

Rectitude=

Straightness.

Rightness of principle or practice.

Exact conformity to truth by Divine laws.

Uprightness of mind.

Uprightness/ integrity/ honesty/ justice.

Right judgment.

Assured probity.

High ideal.

Incorruptibility.

Pure/stainless/unimpeachable/worthy.

"Made sinners" =

kathistēmi hamartōlos

"Made righteous" =

kathistēmi dikaios

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
So Jesus was the obedient One and we don't have to be obedient to Him?

We can raise all the hell we want in life and reject the obedient One and after a partial judgement, we will enter into His presence?
 
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mmksparbud

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Dear lady: put on your specs.

"For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope."

Do you know what "not willingly" means?



Lam_3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Phm_1:14 But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.
1Pe_5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;


I have my specs on---remove your blinders.
 
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Hillsage

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According to UR we can live like the devil himself, die, suffer partial judgement, and then enter into the Kingdom of God.

Not a bad deal!!!
This POV coming from a OSAS believing Baptist? Oh yeah wait a minute that's if you were really saved to begin with. Which to me is dumb theology. It's like saying IF the prodigal son went prodigal, then he was never really a son to begin with. He really became a son after he came back and 'really' made up with daddy. :doh:
 
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Hillsage

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The Bible DOES NOT teach a partial judgement for sin!!!

No, the bible preaches ETERNAL HELL is the price to be paid for sin....RIGHT? That's what you believe....right? So, why isn't Jesus sitting in ETERNAL HELL, in your place, paying that price? And don't tell me He isn't there because he was perfect, or He was God, or 'whatever whatever'. Because every answer you can give does just one thing, it 'changes the price'. He isn't sitting in ETERNAL HELL being painfully tortured FOREVER because that was never the price to begin with. :idea:
 
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mmksparbud

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No, the bible preaches ETERNAL HELL is the price to be paid for sin....RIGHT? That's what you believe....right? So, why isn't Jesus sitting in ETERNAL HELL, in your place, paying that price? And don't tell me He isn't there because he was perfect, or He was God, or 'whatever whatever'. Because every answer you can give does just one thing, it 'changes the price'. He isn't sitting in ETERNAL HELL being painfully tortured FOREVER because that was never the price to begin with. :idea:

Right---and the price is death---which He did pay. And God raised Him up---and, if, like Christ, we die in God, with the blood of Christ covering our sins---we will be resurrected unto the resurrection of life. Those who die without that covering, will be resurrected to the resurrection of damnation---to pay the price for their sins---according to their works---and will pay the price of the 2nd death, from which there is no resurrection. So choose now whom you will follow---there is no 2nd chance.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Right---and the price is death---which He did pay. And God raised Him up---and, if, like Christ, we die in God, with the blood of Christ covering our sins---we will be resurrected unto the resurrection of life. Those who die without that covering, will be resurrected to the resurrection of damnation---to pay the price for their sins---according to their works---and will pay the price of the 2nd death, from which there is no resurrection. So choose now whom you will follow---there is no 2nd chance.

I think that you do not yet know the nature of the second death, or the nature of the Lake of Fire. Take up your KJV and your Strong's Concordance. Begin to look up "fire" and related words in Strong's, and look up the verses in the KJV. If you keep at it, you will learn that FIRE is an essential part of the nature of God. That being so, the supernatural fires in your Bible are Godfire, not Hellfire.
 
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FineLinen

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Lam_3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Phm_1:14 But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.
1Pe_5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;


I have my specs on---remove your blinders.

Dear lady: Have you applied spec cleaner to your specs? (LOL)

With your specs now in tip top shape, and your dokeo perspective uncluttered; can you now disclose to us what is the foundation for why the Eternal One has placed His creation in such an "unwilling" position?
 
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FineLinen

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Humongous Beware ! ! !

Plan A =

"For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope."

Alternate plan b =

The creation chose to be encompassed in vanity by their own choice with no hope of change.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Humongous Beware ! ! !

Plan A =

"For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope."

Alternate plan b =

The creation chose to be encompassed in vanity by their own choice with no hope of change.

Then there is Solomon's commentary: "Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity."
 
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mmksparbud

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I think that you do not yet know the nature of the second death, or the nature of the Lake of Fire. Take up your KJV and your Strong's Concordance. Begin to look up "fire" and related words in Strong's, and look up the verses in the KJV. If you keep at it, you will learn that FIRE is an essential part of the nature of God. That being so, the supernatural fires in your Bible are Godfire, not Hellfire.


Again---the Godfire falls on the lost--it does not harm those that are covered by the righteousness of Jesus. Said it over and over. Like Meshack, Abednego and Shadrack---it will not harm the saved---but it kills those not covered by the blood of Jesus. As the same fire killed the soldiers tossing the Jews into the furnace, but the fire did not harm the Jews. Godfire is hellfire to the lost.
 
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mmksparbud

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Dear lady: Have you applied spec cleaner to your specs? (LOL)

With your specs now in tip top shape, and your dokeo perspective uncluttered; can you now disclose to us what is the foundation for why the Eternal One has placed His creation in such an "unwilling" position?

Again ---take your blinders off. God has given us freewill---it is us who are unwilling to live in His kingdom---God is perfectly willing to have everyone live in it---but, like Lucifer---we have the right to reject Him---that is love--willing to be rejected. You can't force love---it is then no longer love but slavery.
 
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Charlie24

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This POV coming from a OSAS believing Baptist? Oh yeah wait a minute that's if you were really saved to begin with. Which to me is dumb theology. It's like saying IF the prodigal son went prodigal, then he was never really a son to begin with. He really became a son after he came back and 'really' made up with daddy. :doh:
You haven't been paying attention to my posts in the OSAS threads or maybe failed to see them more likely.

I do NOT give consent to OSAS, it is a false teaching. There are many other Baptists that believe the same.
 
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Charlie24

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No, the bible preaches ETERNAL HELL is the price to be paid for sin....RIGHT? That's what you believe....right? So, why isn't Jesus sitting in ETERNAL HELL, in your place, paying that price? And don't tell me He isn't there because he was perfect, or He was God, or 'whatever whatever'. Because every answer you can give does just one thing, it 'changes the price'. He isn't sitting in ETERNAL HELL being painfully tortured FOREVER because that was never the price to begin with. :idea:
Jesus took my place on the Cross, not in Hell. To even ask the question "why didn't Christ take your place in hell" proves you have never read the Bible, let alone understand the plan of God for mankind.
 
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FineLinen

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Again ---take your blinders off. God has given us freewill---it is us who are unwilling to live in His kingdom---God is perfectly willing to have everyone live in it---but, like Lucifer---we have the right to reject Him---that is love--willing to be rejected. You can't force love---it is then no longer love but slavery.

Dear lady: you did not use your spec. cleaner.

I will not at this particular moment give us the scope of the Father drawing all mankind to Himself. I will however again say, mankind was made sinners by no choice of its own but by reason of Him who made it so.

God comes to make His blessings flow far as the curse is found!
 
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FineLinen

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Then there is Solomon's commentary: "Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity."

Dear Laz: The word vanity encapsulates in exquisite form the results of Adam's broken union with the Lord of Glory.

Vanity = mataiotes =

Emptiness as a final result.

Empty>>> empty >>>empty!
 
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