BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[Saint Steven]

Anything he says or I say or you say or anyone says CANNOT EVER MAKE U.R. even faintly okay - it is a false gospel , evil and accursed, according to God's Word, and
no matter what anyone on earth says today, or ever.

Tell us about the "true" gospel, Jeff. What do you believe?

 

[FineLinen]

You really would do better getting to know the bible and quoting it rather than all these men's opinions. They will not save you. Get to know your bible---get to know your God.

Dear Lady: The experience of coming to know Him is in dimensions of steps that lead ever higher into deep union and communion. The process, and it is a process, I doubt can ever be fully attained. Regardless, the cry continues in His especially as they cry, that I may know Him & the power of His resurrection.

“What were we made for? To know God. What aim should we have in life? To know God. What is the eternal life that Jesus gives? To know God. What is the best thing in life? To know God. What in humans gives God most pleasure? Knowledge of himself.” – J.I. Packer

 

[Saint Steven]

I shouldn’t even have to explain that many does not mean all.

“For as through the one man's disobedience the many (polýs G4183)
were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many (polýs G4183) will be made righteous.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭NASB

Seriously?
How many LESS THAN "all" were made sinners?

Now apply that (same word) to how many were made righteous.

 

[Lazarus Short]

It was and is total rubbish. Lexical fallacy, root fallacy. What Hel might have meant in another language, in a different country and culture, 100s of years ago is almost worthless in determining the meaning in English today. The KJV has more than 800 words which have changes substantially in meaning or dropped out of use altogether. Note the word artillery in this verse it could in no way have the same meaning today.

KJV 1 Samuel 20:40 And Jonathan gave his artillery unto his lad, and said unto him, Go, carry them to the city.​

When we say "truck" in English we usually think of a large boxy vehicle for hauling large, heavy loads, it originally meant vegetables.

Had you actually clicked on the link, and read the article, you might know that the meaning of "Hel" is "hidden," very close to the meaning of the Old High German word "helle," which meant "hidden and covered." Here are more related words, from the authoritative OED:

Old English – hel

Old Frisian – helle, hille

Old Saxon – hellja, hella

Middle Dutch – helle

Old High German – helle

Old Norse – hel, heljar

Gothic – halja

Original Teutonic - halja

I am well aware of the drift of word meanings over time, and of "truck" in particular. Some words are recognizable as far back as we care to trace them. "Blood" is one that I have noticed, and "Hell" is another. Invoking "lexical fallacy" and "root fallacy" no longer impresses me.

 

[Der Alte]

Houston, we have a problem...
The Greek word used for acknowledge in Phil.2:10-11 indicates an openly whole-hearted confession of Christ as Lord without reservation. Not the forced confession the Damnationists and Annihilations claim....

No, it does not. Strong's is a concordance not a lexicon. It only shows how words are used in the KJV. It has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. I have already posted the complete definition from BDAG.

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ἐξομολογέω (s. next entry and ὁμολογέω) 1 aor. ἐξωμολόγησα; fut. mid. ἐξομολογήσομαι; aor. mid. ἐξωμολογησάμην LXX (quotable since III B.C.—Mitt-Wilck. II/2, 20, 18; 37, 17—PHib 30, 18 [300–271 B.C.]; also LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph.).
① to indicate acceptance of an offer or proposal, promise, consent, act., abs. Lk 22:6 (the act. is found as rarely [perh. Alex. Aphr., An. Mant. II 1 p. 168, 15] as the pass. [perh. SIG 685, 95]).
② to make an admission of wrong-doing/sin, confess, admit, mid. (Plut., Eum. 594 [17, 7], Anton. 943 [59, 3] τ. ἀλήθειαν, Stoic. Repugn. 17 p. 1042a; Sus 14; Jos., Bell. 1, 625, Ant. 8, 256) τὶ someth. (POslo 17, 14 [136 A.D.] τὸ ἀληθές; Cyranides p. 100, 18 πάντα ὅσα ἔπραξεν; Orig., C. Cels. 2, 11, 30 τὸ ἡμαρτημένον) τὰς ἁμαρτίας (Jos., Ant. 8, 129; s. the ins in Steinleitner, nos. 13, 5; 23, 2; 24, 11; 25, 10) Mt 3:6; Mk 1:5 (cp. 1QS 1:24–26); Js 5:16 (s. PAlthaus, Zahn Festgabe 1928, 1ff); Hv 1, 1, 3; Hs 9, 23, 4. τὰς ἁ. τῷ κυρίῳ confess sins to the Lord Hv 3, 1, 5, cp. 6. τὰ παραπτώματα ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ confess transgressions in the congregation D 4:14. περὶ τῶν παραπτωμάτων make a confession of transgressions 1 Cl 51:3. ἐπὶ τ. ἁμαρτίαις for sins B 19:12. Abs. make a confession of sins Ac 19:18; 2 Cl 8:3. W. dat. of the one to whom sins are confessed 1 Cl 52:1, 2 (w. similarity in form to Ps 7:18; 117:19 and sim. Ps passages, but not=praise because of 1 Cl 51:3 [s. 4 below]).—JSchnitzer, D. Beichte im Lichte d. Religionsgesch.: Ztschr. f. Völkerpsychol. 6, 1930, 94–105; RPettazzoni, La confessione dei Peccati II ’35.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 351). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

 

[Der Alte]

Had you actually clicked on the link, and read the article, you might know that the meaning of "Hel" is "hidden," very close to the meaning of the Old High German word "helle," which meant "hidden and covered." Here are more related words, from the authoritative OED:

Old English – hel

Old Frisian – helle, hille

Old Saxon – hellja, hella

Middle Dutch – helle

Old High German – helle

Old Norse – hel, heljar

Gothic – halja

Original Teutonic - halja

I am well aware of the drift of word meanings over time, and of "truck" in particular. Some words are recognizable as far back as we care to trace them. "Blood" is one that I have noticed, and "Hell" is another. Invoking "lexical fallacy" and "root fallacy" no longer impresses me.

I have been at this forum for more than 2 decades. I have heard all the arguments and seen all the "evidence." I am not impressed by what does/does not impress you. Go ask the average person on the street what "hell" means, you might find one in a 10,000 who knows what you just posted. So your examples above are still meaningless.

 

[Der Alte]

Merely saying "Total rubbish!" makes nothing false.

I have posted my evidence many times and I'm sure you have seen it more than once. So don't try to play that card.

 

[FineLinen]

I shouldn’t even have to explain that many does not mean all.

You are absolutely correct BNR. Many= many. Some=some. All = all. The equation is totally equal on both sides. Take your choice.

1. The many were made sinners.

2. Some were made sinners.

3. All were made sinners.

 

[FineLinen]

1 Cor. 15:22

“For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power.”

Rev. 5:13

“And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power forever.”

Col. 1:18-20

“He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme. For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell. And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated…”

Acts 3:20,21

“And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)”

1 Cor. 15:28

“And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some.”

1 Cor. 15:25,27

“For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet…For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He saith some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him.”

Romans 11:32

“For God has consigned some men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon some.”

Eph. 4:10

“Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence.”

John 5:28

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

1 Timothy 2:4

“For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth.”

1 Timothy 2:6

“For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time.”

Cor. 5:15

“For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life.”

Col. 1:16

"For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)…some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

John 3:35

“The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God’s displeasure hangs over him continually.”

Gal. 3:20

“But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him.”

Heb. 1:2

“God…hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)”

2 Cor. 5:14

“For the love of Christ constraineth/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for some of us and has risen again.”

Heb.8:11

“And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness…”

Acts 10:36

"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.

Rom. 11:36

“For from him some things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end.” (For of him and through him, and to him are some things.)

Eph. 4:6

“One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some.”

Heb. 12:23

“To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect.”

James 2:10

“For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some.”

Romans 3:22,23

“…the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. …For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour.”

John 17:2

“As thou has made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give aeonios life to as many as thou hast given him.”

Romans 9:5

“The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages.”

2 Peter 3:9

“The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people’s conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance.”

Phil. 2:10,11

In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.

Please Remember…

All does not radically mean all.

Whole is not whole.

All = Some

 

[Saint Steven]

I have been at this forum for more than 2 decades. I have heard all the arguments and seen all the "evidence." I am not impressed by what does/does not impress you. Go ask the average person on the street what "hell" means, you might find one in a 10,000 who knows what you just posted. So your examples above are still meaningless.

That's an impressive record. Two decades, nearly 20,000 posts and no friends. I wonder why?

 

[Deade]

Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

When Jesus comes---He comes only for the saved. The rest of the wicked are left dead until after the 1000 years---then the wicked face their resurrection---unto their judgment which is the 2nd death. There is no salvation after death. The only ones that are saved after death are the righteous who die righteous. They are resurrected unto life, the wicked are resurrected unto the 2nd death.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You realize of course, that your two verses in John speak of after the 1000 years and the 2nd resurrection? It says some will still have life. Set aside your Ellen White doctrine a little and ask yourself: Is a God of love is going to resurrect all those people just to condemn them and kill them?

The judgment after the millennium is a period of time, not just a courtroom scenario. Christ is going to remake the earth to hold all the dead down through the ages to hold them. They will have history recorded with man and Satan running things for 6000 years, and Christ for 1000 years. The difference will be astounding.

 

[mmksparbud]

Houston, we have a problem...
The Greek word used for acknowledge in Phil.2:10-11 indicates an openly whole-hearted confession of Christ as Lord without reservation. Not the forced confession the Damnationists and Annihilations claim.

What a horrible thing to charge God with. A forced confession? Really? Like some sick sadist getting the satisfaction they want before they exterminate you? It's just sick.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

So, in your lofty view of things, just what happens to those who have grieved away the Holy Spirit and are called "the wicked--or the Lost" in the bible? Just what exactly is the outcome of these people? The ones that Jesus says will go in to the lake of fire? What happens there for you guys?

 

[mmksparbud]

You realize of course, that your two verses in John speak of after the 1000 years and the 2nd resurrection? It says some will still have life. Set aside your Ellen White doctrine a little and ask yourself: Is a God of love is going to resurrect all those people just to condemn them and kill them?

The judgment after the millennium is a period of time, not just a courtroom scenario. Christ is going to remake the earth to hold all the dead down through the ages to hold them. They will have history recorded with man and Satan running things for 6000 years, and Christ for 1000 years. The difference will be astounding. View attachment 267194

Good grief---EGW doesn't enter into it. It's from the bible. Where is the justice for those who have sinned then? Is God with out justice? What do you do with the wages of sin is death? Why bother giving your heart to the Lord---what is the point?

 

[mmksparbud]

Dear Lady: The experience of coming to know Him is in dimensions of steps that lead ever higher into deep union and communion. The process, and it is a process, I doubt can ever be fully attained. Regardless, the cry continues in His especially as they cry, that I may know Him & the power of His resurrection.

“What were we made for? To know God. What aim should we have in life? To know God. What is the eternal life that Jesus gives? To know God. What is the best thing in life? To know God. What in humans gives God most pleasure? Knowledge of himself.” – J.I. Packer

Do you ever have any thoughts that come from the bible or are they just from these people without any knowledge of it?

 

[FineLinen]

So, in your lofty view of things, just what happens to those who have grieved away the Holy Spirit and are called "the wicked--or the Lost" in the bible? Just what exactly is the outcome of these people? The ones that Jesus says will go in to the lake of fire? What happens there for you guys?

Dear Lady: Steve is not presenting a lofty view, He is presenting exacty what the koine is declaring in no uncertain terms. The fact is the confession of worship of the Lord Jesus Christ is by the all in every dimension.

This is an excellent link to question what calling evil good and good evil means. What does the blasphemy of the Spirit entail?

 

[FineLinen]

Do you ever have any thoughts that come from the bible or are they just from these people without any knowledge of it?

 

[Saint Steven]

So, in your lofty view of things, just what happens to those who have grieved away the Holy Spirit and are called "the wicked--or the Lost" in the bible? Just what exactly is the outcome of these people? The ones that Jesus says will go in to the lake of fire? What happens there for you guys?

My view is "lofty"? (says the Adventist)

We believe that all of creation will be restored.
We view the LOF as a refining fire.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[Skidder]

Dear GraceBro: It gets no clearer than this. The Father is NOT counting our sins against us! We are committed to speaking the word of Reconciliation. He the God of Reconciliation. God was reconciling the entire kosmos unto Himself.

To reconcile=

Definition of RECONCILE

The koine=

To change from enmity to friendship.

What God accomplishes through grace to former enemies.

Why would God give us a ministry of reconciliation if everyone is reconciled? What happens if they don't choose to be reconciled and they die in their sins? Does God take away their free will and force them to be reconciled? That means he would have to force them to believe in Christ because reconciliation only happens by dying with Christ.

There is no way to be reconciled without the body ruled by sin (old man) still in the picture. The only way to be reconciled is to be crucified with Christ, which is only by faith in Christ. A person who rejects Christ has not been crucified with Christ; therefore they have not been reconciled in the body of His flesh through death.

Colossians 1:21
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has RECONCILED in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

Romans 6:6,11
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the BODY OF SIN might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin...
Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me

Colossians 1:21 says that to be reconciled you have died with Christ and are now holy and blameless in His sight.

So basically what you are saying is that those who reject Christ are reconciled, therefore they have died with Christ, and are now righteous and Holy in His sight. ALL APART FROM FAITH! That is a SERIOUS FALSE GOSPEL!

Please tell me how they've been reconciled without being crucified with Christ? THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE! Another serious contradiction of you false reconciliation.

And your precious Annhilationism/Soul-Destruction contradicts the scriptures that describe hell as a place for a time which forces the principle of existence.

Existence, Time, and Space: The bible declares (more than once) that hell is a PLACE of suffering for eternity. But for one to be in a PLACE for a TIME and to SUFFER they must EXIST. And if one does not exist than how can they be subject to a PLACE for ETERNITY? A person has TO BE, to be in a PLACE for ETERNITY. If God snuffs out a soul how could that person dwell in a PLACE called hell? Non-existence has no walls, therefore it would be IMPOSSIBLE for it dwell in a PLACE for eternity? Therefore "non-existence" contradicts the very "existence" of an eternal PLACE called HELL.

Again more contradiction to your false hell and reconciliation.

 

[Saint Steven]

Why would God give us a ministry of reconciliation if everyone is reconciled?

We are not claiming that everyone is reconciled in advance. Atoned for, yes. Reconciled, no.

 

[mmksparbud]

Apparently not.