BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[Der Alte]

And that treasure is DEATH FOR THE MANY?
No point living forever if those you love are condemned forever. Why would you bother?

As if God bases His judgments on the mercurial sensibilities of sinful mankind.

 

[mmksparbud]

And that treasure is DEATH FOR THE MANY?
No point living forever if those you love are condemned forever. Why would you bother?

I said the Treasure is Jesus. Obviously it is not for you. Your treasure is your family and loved ones and friends. Eternal life with Jesus and the Father is what is promised in a remade world where there is no death, no tears, no sorrow no illness---if that is not what you want, then don't bother. Your loved ones have their own path to follow and it may not lead them to God. If they matter more than God--you will not be there either. You have to have faith that God does love everyone and wants everyone there and will do everything He can to save them---but the decision is theirs to make, He will not force therm.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[Rick Otto]

And that treasure is DEATH FOR THE MANY?
No point living forever if those you love are condemned forever. Why would you bother?

Eternal torture is counter - intuitive to any mature notion of justice, I have to agree. Personality fractures and or disintegrates under absolute existential pressure.
"Those I love" play second fiddle to God, including me, so... His will be done.

 

[Lazarus Short]

There's zero biblical support for the false teachings of urists ...... the motive is something foreign to Scripture, opposed to Jesus, to prevent people from finding the truth.

Jeff, I found almost zero Biblical support for annihilation...it's not a strong contender.

I found a fair amount of Biblical support for Hell and Damnation, BUT when I saw the bias and word choices and theology-put-before-translation, that support went <poof> for the most part.

Saying "zero biblical support" only shows you have not taken a comprehensive look at the subject. One of the pastors who early-on introduced me to UR admitted that the Bible did seem to teach all three. At that time I was yet to be committed to the teaching.

 

[Der Alte]

Jeff, I found almost zero Biblical support for annihilation...it's not a strong contender.
I found a fair amount of Biblical support for Hell and Damnation, BUT when I saw the bias and word choices and theology-put-before-translation, that support went <poof> for the most part.
Saying "zero biblical support" only shows you have not taken a comprehensive look at the subject. One of the pastors who early-on introduced me to UR admitted that the Bible did seem to teach all three. At that time I was yet to be committed to the teaching.

Nonsense. I have posted the following many times, it has never been refuted.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, hades and gehenna in the NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?
And Jesus never taught or implied that all mankind would be saved, reconciled etc. righteous and unrighteous, alike, even after death.

 

[Hillsage]

My dear brother Sage: Any person who has given over 1/2 of their blessings to F.L. will forever be in my heart.

You forced me to take a look at my 'blessing account', which I never do. Then I looked at yours. I do feel it is time to give again to one who gives.

My vision is fast joining the rest of me. From head to toe there is serious deterioration. Now my precious partner of 62 years is threatening a nasty divorce. I have not even the power to shake of dust and leeches.

I have not the desire to continue throwing pearls where they are not appreciated.

My dear friend you must unpack your "nasty divorce" comment. I know in my heart that there is a story revealing a greater understanding which alludes those who are reading and devoid of the Spirit of revelation.

A PM is coming concerning your vision deterioration.

 

[Saint Steven]

There may be a case for universalism but this ain't it, bro.

Let's hear it.

 

[mmksparbud]

Jeff, I found almost zero Biblical support for annihilation...it's not a strong contender.

I found a fair amount of Biblical support for Hell and Damnation, BUT when I saw the bias and word choices and theology-put-before-translation, that support went <poof> for the most part.

Saying "zero biblical support" only shows you have not taken a comprehensive look at the subject. One of the pastors who early-on introduced me to UR admitted that the Bible did seem to teach all three. At that time I was yet to be committed to the teaching.

That is not true in the slightest and you know it. There is more than you can offer which is not one verse that says anyone comes out of the lake of fire and unto eternal life.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Do you want them all? They've been given before--you ignore them. These are only a few.

• 2 Peter 2:6 NHEB
"...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”
2 Thes 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
We never were created immortal. We are given immortality. Not even Adam and Eve were immortal--
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
They were driven from the garden to prevent them eating of the tree and living forever in sin. After the resurrection we get the tree back:
Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Nowhere does the bible say eternal life will be given to the lost. We are not going to shovel fruit from the tree of life to the lost so they can live forever in torment!
We are given immortality as a gift from God.
Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
2Ti_1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Only the Godhead is immortal:
Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Saints Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked:
The Saints View The Lifeless Remains (i.e. Corpses) of the Wicked:
• Isaiah 66:22-24
"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihiation):
• 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."
• Malachi 4:1-3
“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.”
• 2 Peter 2:6 NHEB
"...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”
• Psalms 68:2
"....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."
• Job 4:8-9
“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”
• Psalms 92:7 NLT
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."
• Deuteronomy 7:10
“And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”
• Psalms 1:6
“For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”
• Matthew 10:28
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”
• Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:
A. Destruction of the Devil:
• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19
12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”
• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18
“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”
2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Isaiah 60:12
"For the nation and the kingdom which will not serve you will perish, And the nations will be utterly ruined.
Isaiah 34:2
For the LORD'S indignation is against all the nations, And His wrath against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to slaughter.
Exodus 22:20
"He who sacrifices to any god, other than to the LORD alone, shall be utterly destroyed.
Matt 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Matt 7:19
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matt 13:40-42
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18
“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”
• Psalms 92:7 NLT
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."


• Job 4:8-9
“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”

I only ask for that one verse that says anyone comes out of the lake of fire to eternity with God.
•

 

[FineLinen]

You forced me to take a look at my 'blessing account', which I never do. Then I looked at yours. I do feel it is time to give again to one who gives.


I have not the desire to continue throwing pearls where they are not appreciated.

My dear friend you must unpack your "nasty divorce" comment. I know in my heart that there is a story revealing a greater understanding which alludes those who are reading and devoid of the Spirit of revelation.

A PM is coming concerning your vision deterioration.

Dear Sage: For all you are in our Master deposits of HOPE wells up within my old bones. I desire to go home to Him with both of my boots on and broke. My boots are on (sort of), but the plan of absolute poverty is being eroded by you (sort of). Much thanks for trying, I feel so rich in blessings!

"He that saves his life shall lose it, but he who loses his life for My sake shall find it."

 

[Shrewd Manager]

As if God bases His judgments on the mercurial sensibilities of sinful mankind.

Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? (Lk 11:11)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I said the Treasure is Jesus. Obviously it is not for you. Your treasure is your family and loved ones and friends. Eternal life with Jesus and the Father is what is promised in a remade world where there is no death, no tears, no sorrow no illness---if that is not what you want, then don't bother. Your loved ones have their own path to follow and it may not lead them to God. If they matter more than God--you will not be there either. You have to have faith that God does love everyone and wants everyone there and will do everything He can to save them---but the decision is theirs to make, He will not force therm.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

We don't love Jesus at the expense of everyone else. To love Jesus is to love even our enemies. The revelation of great victory by the cross consists in the radical extremes to which God will go in order to demonstrate His unfailing love for mankind even at our worst, the perfect spirit of love of the son for the father and creation. So how will there be no sorrow when most don't 'make the cut'? You just forget about them. Live and let die, huh?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Eternal torture is counter - intuitive to any mature notion of justice, I have to agree. Personality fractures and or disintegrates under absolute existential pressure.
"Those I love" play second fiddle to God, including me, so... His will be done.

True, thankfully for us His will is that all things be restored in Christ. For Jesus, 'those I love' is no less than everyone.

 

[mmksparbud]

We don't love Jesus at the expense of everyone else. To love Jesus is to love even our enemies. The revelation of great victory by the cross consists in the radical extremes to which God will go in order to demonstrate His unfailing love for mankind even at our worst, the perfect spirit of love of the son for the father and creation. So how will there be no sorrow when most don't 'make the cut'? You just forget about them. Live and let die, huh?

God loves them to. I love my brothers who died shooting up at the age of 50---it kills me that he spent his life on earth in a hell of his own making, and that he will have to face God for what he has done. He spend most of his life stealing to pay for his habit. We each have to face God. He could have chosen God instead, but didn't. I hope somehow, in those last few minutes he did. But that is highly unlikely and between God and him. We are to love the sinner, not the sin. God will love the sinner always---but sin can not live in the presence of a Holy God and it will die in His presence. I have always likened this to a drop of water on the surface of the sun---it can not live in it's presence. The blood of Jesus is like a protecting cover over this drop of water and it then can survive. But we have to choose Jesus---He doesn't force His love down our throat's. He did not make us to be robots. We choose. He honors our choice though it may wound Him deeply. All I know is that God says there will be no tears and no sorrow in the new earth and there is indication that God will have us forget the past so that we do not grieve. I leave it in the hands of God to do what He says He will do.

Isa 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
I do not think we will forget everything about our past---but apparently God will have us forget things which would cause us pain or sorrow. I trust Him--He does what is best for us always, and keeps His promises. But if your heart is with your loved ones above God---then you will be with your loved ones---and that may not be where God is. I pray every day for all my family and acquaintances to choose Him. I trust He will do everything, short of force, to help them choose Him.

 

[FineLinen]

We don't love Jesus at the expense of everyone else. To love Jesus is to love even our enemies. The revelation of great victory by the cross consists in the radical extremes to which God will go in order to demonstrate His unfailing love for mankind even at our worst, the perfect spirit of love of the son for the father and creation.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

God loves them to. I love my brothers who died shooting up at the age of 50---it kills me that he spent his life on earth in a hell of his own making, and that he will have to face God for what he has done. He spend most of his life stealing to pay for his habit. We each have to face God. He could have chosen God instead, but didn't. I hope somehow, in those last few minutes he did. But that is highly unlikely and between God and him. We are to love the sinner, not the sin. God will love the sinner always---but sin can not live in the presence of a Holy God and it will die in His presence.

Sorry to hear about your brother. But there's good news: with God, there's ALWAYS a reason for hope.

It's axiomatic that God loves the sinner and hates the sin. So then don't you suppose He is able to separate the sinner from the sin and thereby restore the person to His image? Refine away the dross, consume the evil. He doesn't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. He's the great physician.

And love doesn't consist in allowing someone to choose to leap off a cliff. It consists in saving them from whatever problem is causing them to want to suicide. God delights in doing that, whether now or in the hereafter. That's the message of the cross. How badly did Israel mess up? And did God go all the way in loving self-sacrifice just the same? Even when we were enemies, once far now brought near through the blood of Christ.

Consider Jesus' report to fortify John the Baptist's faith.

The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. (Mt 11:5)

See the Son, see the Father. These are proofs of the kingdom, the power of heaven on earth. Jesus doesn't kill the leper, he kills the disease and saves the victim. Ax laid to the root.

So it's God's business to raise the dead, cleanse lepers, restore sight and heal injuries, not to let sin overcome the sinner. God destroys sin in order to redeem. His righteous judgments save. Nobody gets left behind.

I trust Him--He does what is best for us always, and keeps His promises. But if your heart is with your loved ones above God---then you will be with your loved ones---and that may not be where God is. I pray every day for all my family and acquaintances to choose Him. I trust He will do everything, short of force, to help them choose Him.

When there's a conflict between God and my family and friends, I try to reconcile the latter to God's will. God's law in our hearts is all about good relationships with others, Kingdom kindness and humility. The beatitudes are not conducive to strutting around with an iron bar in pride, full of leaven of the Pharisees - forgive me Father.

 

[FineLinen]

What a wonderfully glorious thing to realize, God has shut up the all to disobedience "not willingly". And why has the Author & Finisher done such a thing?

Mercy upon the all

 

[mmksparbud]

Sorry to hear about your brother. But there's good news: with God, there's ALWAYS a reason for hope.

It's axiomatic that God loves the sinner and hates the sin. So then don't you suppose He is able to separate the sinner from the sin and thereby restore the person to His image? Refine away the dross, consume the evil. He doesn't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. He's the great physician.

And love doesn't consist in allowing someone to choose to leap off a cliff. It consists in saving them from whatever problem is causing them to want to suicide. God delights in doing that, whether now or in the hereafter. That's the message of the cross. How badly did Israel mess up? And did God go all the way in loving self-sacrifice just the same? Even when we were enemies, once far now brought near through the blood of Christ.

Consider Jesus' report to fortify John the Baptist's faith.

The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. (Mt 11:5)

See the Son, see the Father. These are proofs of the kingdom, the power of heaven on earth. Jesus doesn't kill the leper, he kills the disease and saves the victim. Ax laid to the root.

So it's God's business to raise the dead, cleanse lepers, restore sight and heal injuries, not to let sin overcome the sinner. God destroys sin in order to redeem. His righteous judgments save. Nobody gets left behind.




When there's a conflict between God and my family and friends, I try to reconcile the latter to God's will. God's law in our hearts is all about good relationships with others, Kingdom kindness and humility. The beatitudes are not conducive to strutting around with an iron bar in pride, full of leaven of the Pharisees - forgive me Father.

We are to do that in this world. That is what the Holy Spirit helps us do--overcome sin in our lives. There are 9 other verses that say the same thing---

Rev_21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Nothng anywhere says that we can do that after death. I don't see what is so very difficult to understand that God will not force anyone to choose Him! You can not force anyone to love! So many men are in prison because they think love consisted of forcing the woman to do what they say and make them love them---You can not do that. Love can only be freely expressed, not brought about by torture! No one is in the lake of fire to be corrected, to be forced into loving God---they are there to pay the price for their sins because they refused to have them covered by the blood of Jesus.
You can not burn anyone into loving God---sins are overcome through the Holy Spirit, throguh the love we have for God. We are then protected from the fire---otherwise---no one comes out of the fire to love God! That is something that only comes from the mind of abusing people. You don't kick a dog, cat, child, or adults into loving you. Whomever came up with this idea had the mentality of an abuser.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

We are to do that in this world.

Nobody can love Christ unless he is revealed. There are many 'career Christians' who have no clue who he is, the 'I never knew you' gang. They try and they try to make the cut, they pray and they fast and they read the word, they believe they love and serve God...but all to no avail. Into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels they shall go.

Nothng anywhere says that we can do that after death.

God raises the dead. Some to life eternal, others to correction eternal. And once they have been corrected, they will have overcome and are welcome into the City.

I don't see what is so very difficult to understand that God will not force anyone to choose Him!

I don't see why you think we're saying God forces anyone to love Him. Only universalism truly allows for freedom of choice, there's no threat of death or torture to cloud one's motives. That's duress by ultimatum: love me or die/ burn forever.

they are there to pay the price for their sins because they refused to have them covered by the blood of Jesus.

You want robotic? Right there's a fine exhibit of mechanical legalism.

no one comes out of the fire to love God!

Speak for yourself. God is fire. And just one moment in His presence is enough to destroy all doubt, fear, unbelief, error and enmity that a worldly heart and mind has built up against Him. That's the baptism of fire and the spirit spoken of by John.

You don't kick a dog, cat, child, or adults into loving you. Whomever came up with this idea had the mentality of an abuser.

Nor do you threaten them with eternal destruction if they won't love you. That would come from the mafioso psycho narcissist fallen pseudo-deity ie satan the deceiver and usurper.

 

[FineLinen]

Eternal torture is counter - intuitive to any mature notion of justice, I have to agree. Personality fractures and or disintegrates under absolute existential pressure.
"Those I love" play second fiddle to God, including me, so... His will be done.

Dear Rick: I find the Father of all fathers to be a constant. His will is to have sons and daughters who love Him for who He is. He constantly moves to bring each and every one of them to His point of view, it is called at-one-ment.

Steadfast =

Firmly loyal/ constant/ unswerving.

Fixed/ unchanging.

Immoveable.

Praise the Lord, all nations! Extol him, all peoples! For great is his steadfast love toward us, and the faithfulness of the Lord endures forever. Praise the Lord!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The make-believe false god , father of lies promoted, does not require repentance, nor does he provide forgiveness, nor redemption, nor salvation to anyone.