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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Skidder, Nov 20, 2019.

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  1. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Neither you or anyone of you have provided one verse that states there is any salvation after death. You keep taking simple scriptures and saying that is what it means but the verses never say such a thing. Neither has there been one single verse that states anyone comes out of the lake of fire to praise and worship God for all eternity. There is no salvation after death.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  2. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Hillsage: Tomorrow has arrived already in brother Shrewd's neck of the woods and our new brother Jord from the Netherlands. You will have over 100 verses to look at, so take your time LOL.

    Life, live, quick in the Bible (127 verses). Greek: ζάω, zaō, G2198

    “Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live/ zaō according to God in the spirit.”
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  3. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Word of the week? UR was orthodox until Justinian (the minion) mounted a concerted attack against Origen.

    Gregory of Nyssa is revered as a saint in both eastern and western traditions. He was an overt universalist who, together with his Cappadochian universalist brother Gregory Nazianzus, settled the Nicene Creed. You know, the orthodox one. Explain that.

    Shall we just focus on finding Christ in every scripture and every scripture through the Spirit of Christ, then we can get all fancy later?

    So I'm cringing just imagining your interpretation of this one! Sword-spittin', skull-crackin', bloodthirsty messiah. No, man.

    The Jews know everything except how to recognise and love Jesus. Some Christians seem to have the same unfortunate blind spot. Perhaps He has blinded their eyes. Now they're lost in the spiritual wilderness again.

    Sure, and if He can promise to bless, save, restore, renew and/or regenerate all things He can deliver.

    And please, der Alter, keep your undead worm away from my wife, sir.
     
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  4. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Sage: Zoe is one of the most popular girls names for 2019.

    Zoe is rooted in zaō.

    Zoe =

    Zoe - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

    zaō =

    Life, live, quick in the Bible (127 verses). Greek: ζάω, zaō, G2198
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  5. PuerAzaelis

    PuerAzaelis Active Member Supporter

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    1 Timothy 1:17 NLT
    All honor and glory to God forever and ever! He is the eternal King, the unseen one who never dies; he alone is God. Amen.

    If "eternal" in this case is applied to God why can it not have the same sense when applied in Matthew 25?
     
  6. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Puer: The fact is aionios life and aionios kolasis are equal in terms of what aionios means. Saint John the beloved defines aionios in a few choice words>>>

    "This IS zoe aionios that we may know You..."

    Everlasting life is not simply duration, but quality of life.

    "Everlasting punishment" likewise is quality of punishment.

    Remember this: Our Father is the Father of all fathers. He punishes with an objective in view, correction, change & transformation, leading to the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

    There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

    According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

    The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

    1.________________________________________?

    2.________________________________________?

    3.________________________________________?

    4.________________________________________?

    5.________________________________________?
     
  7. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Well then, how does Jesus the Christ boast that He has made ALL THINGS NEW? Are the dead not included?
     
  8. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    No. They were already devoured in the fire before He makes all things new---the earth is remade over their ashes!
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    No, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence.
    Cop out!
    If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense. You ought to try that.
    Rubbish. Evidently thou are the one with the blind spot. If you were to read the OT in addition to your handful of out-of-context proof texts you might learn that the Jews rejection of the messiah was prophesied 100s of years before He came. So the fact that the Jews rejected the Messiah as was prophesied has no bearing on how they translate scripture.
    Please show me one verse, two or more would be better, where God, Himself, states unequivocally that he will bless, save, restore, renew and/or regenerate all things, including unrepentant sinners after death?
    If you don't like what scripture says talk to God.
     
  10. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Then...all things are NOT made new.
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Please show me a verse, two or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, states unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, reconciled etc. even the unrighteous after death, or words to that affect?
     
  12. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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  13. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Sure---all that is left. The whole earth. Sorry if that is not good enough for you. But God does as He says---and He said the wicked will all be destroyed and the new earth will be remade over their ashes and He said only the saved will have eternity with Him---He never said He would grant the wicked eternal life with Him, He never said anyone would come out of the lake of fire and spend eternity praising him.
     
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Of the verses which are properly cited so they link none are God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, saying "ALL [can] look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. "
     
  15. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    He already said what He is going to do---He has said from the OT clear through to the NT.

    Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
    Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
    Rom_6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Jas_1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    What makes you think God is not going to do as He says?
     
  16. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Do you realize you have just implied that the Bible is not the Word of God?

    I have noticed that God tends not to say things right out loud, but buries His messages in great piles of text, so that we must delve in over and over, to find the message. Jesus laid this idea out in His parable of the treasure hid in the field.
     
  17. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but your few quotes are hardly the whole story. I do note that the outcome of most verses you quoted is DEATH. Death happens to all in the here-and-now world, but Jesus will defeat and destroy Death, and He will also boast that He makes ALL things new. If not, how does God ever become All in all? But He does.

    Your Gospel: The wicked remain dead, reduced to ashes. Death not defeated. Jesus is unable to make All things new. God cannot become All in all.

    Laz's Gospel: The wicked are saved, through fire (a purifying, cleansing, refining agent). Death is defeated. Jesus makes all things new. God becomes All in all. The shedding of Jesus' blood makes all this possible.
     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    That is a blatantly false accusation and you know it. Here is a passage where God, Himself, is speaking, He is very clear what He means and there is not a hint of UR.
    God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

    …..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

    Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
    2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
    3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
    4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
    5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
    6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
    7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
    8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
    10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
    11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

    · · ·
    14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
    Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
     
  19. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    The Bible is "God-breathed." Your insistence on a direct statement, missed that. It WAS God Himself/Jesus Himself saying what I quoted. Every verse is God Himself saying, except for the ones men have corrupted. Perhaps I should have been more diplomatic, but my assessment stands.
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Evidently the blood and death of Jesus is not enough to save some people they have to be cleansed and saved by fire, not by the blood of Jesus.
    Guess that old hymn is wrong "What can wash away my sin, nothing but the blood of Jesus. Oh precious is the flow that washes white as snow"
    Here you are twisting the words of two verses. 1 Cor 3:15 and Rev 21:5.

    1 Corinthians 3:9-17
    (9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
    (10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    (11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    (12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    (16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
    This passage refers to only one group, NOT all mankind, i.e. labourers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building. vs.9 who build on the foundation of Christ vss. 1-12. "any man,"'every man,""no man" in this passage refers to the one group vs. 9, not all mankind.
    And vs. does not say the wicked are saved through fire. It says anyone who builds on the foundation of Jesus Christ "shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
    The proof text vs. 15 cannot possibly mean all mankind will be saved since vs. 17 says anyone who defiles the temple will be destroyed NOT saved.

    Rev 21:4-8
    (4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    (5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    (6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    (7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
    (8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    Vs. 4"no more death" vs. 5, "I make all things new,"vs. 6 "it is done," But in vs. 8, eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death. Can you reconcile vs. 4 and vs. 8?

     
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