BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[Skidder]

I know you like to center the discussion on the lake of fire (which I think, most of Israel will have to undergo too), but you honestly leave me wondering what your interpretation of Romans 11:26-28 is.

Hope you don't my opinion on those verses....

I believe the answer is still by faith in Christ. When they look upon the one they pierced they will mourn and their eyes will be opened to the Christ.

Zechariah 12:10
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

 

[Jord Simcha]

Hope you don't my opinion on those verses....

I believe the answer is still by faith in Christ. When they look upon the one they pierced they will mourn and their eyes will be opened to the Christ.

Zechariah 12:10
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Not at all.

I agree, by faith in Christ indeed. Which we can surely say, most of them don't have in this lifetime. The Bible even says so. So, that, to me is an indication that these can come to faith after this lifetime.

 

[mmksparbud]

I know you like to center the discussion on the lake of fire (which I think, most of Israel will have to undergo too), but you honestly leave me wondering what your interpretation of Romans 11:26-28 is.

Have already answered that---there will apparently come a time when the Jew living then will all believe in Jesus and be saved. No where in the bile does it say anyone changes their mind in the lake of fire and comes out praising God and spends eternity with him. I've asked and asked and no one gives me the verse.

 

[Jord Simcha]

Have already answered that---there will apparently come a time when the Jew living then will all believe in Jesus and be saved.

I doubt it. Because it is written that they are enemies of the Gospel, but still beloved (and elect) by the Father. All the way back to Jacob, who is mentioned in the verse. I seriously don't believe that Paul wrote it down and was thinking of some future generation of Jews only. No, ALL of Israel shall be saved.

No where in the bile does it say anyone changes their mind in the lake of fire and comes out praising God and spends eternity with him. I've asked and asked and no one gives me the verse.

Shrewd Manager did a decent job of it with the nations.

The best I can do is say that Revelation 22 comes after the lake of fire, or that there is no mention of the lake of fire in 22 (the last chapter), and there is mention of possible conversion in verse 17 as far as I am concerned. So if it is chronological then everybody seems to get out of the lof and can be converted if they're thirsty.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This is the heterodox practice known as "proof texting," select disparate verses which seem to support a particular view and ignore everything else.

You do have a dry sense of humour der Alter, given that there is no finer example of the method of which you speak than in damnationist theology, for which maybe only a dozen disparate isolated scriptures can be press-ganged together, ripped out of context, key terms translated prejudicially and repackaged into a smouldering bundle of filthy rags, and presented with a bow on it.

Where does God, Himself, and/or Jesus, Himself say all mankind will be healed, saved, reconciled etc. even after death?

Rev 15:4
"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED."

Now this is entirely consistent with the Abrahamic Covenant, Ps 86:9 and Is 66:23. It is consistent with Jesus giving his life for all, undoing the sin of Adam, saving the world, and the gospel being good news for all mankind. It is consistent with God's will that all be saved in 1 Tim 2:4, so that He can be all in all as per 1 Cor 15:28 and Eph 4:6. It is consistent with His grace, justice, mercy, wisdom, holiness and so much else.

This deep vein of scripture is now given a certain thrombosis by damnationists intent on strangling the life out of it.

(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Nobody knows exactly what that verse means, which goes against the run of blessings in the preceding chapters. 'Their worm shall not die' indicates figurative language (unless we have a tapeworm problem?), and 'their fire' indicates that they are alive - Live carcases with undying worms. That's a great scripture to support damnation der Alter. What do you do for an encore?

 

[mmksparbud]

Of them which are saved cannot be correct in view of Gen 22:18 Rev 16 4 and the rest which all speak of salvation of ALL the nations. So now God's short changing us is He to suit your theological preferences? Well I said I'd save all nations...but I lied. Your god.

LOL!! You are the one that is changing the scripture and saying it is wrong (can not be correct) and then accuse me of changing scripture to suit my theological preferences!!! God doesn't lie. And it is clear who the nations are---there are 2 of them---all the nations of the wicked that follow Satan and all the nations of God that follow Him. All the nations that have decided to follow God are collected together at His 2nd coming---He only comes for the saved. There are 2 resurrections, there are 2 deaths', there are 2 nations.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The first resurrection is only of the saved--- all the saved nations---so the decision as to who those are has already been made. They are all taken to be with God in the New Jerusalem for a 1000 years. After the 1000 years---the wicked are resurrected, this is the 2nd resurrection, all the nations of Satan-- And they are all gathered together by Satan and go against the city of God to try to take it by force and are devoured by God. Obviously they die unrepentant or they would not be trying to take over the city of God! There is nothing to be confused about! The saved nations are with God, the wicked nations are with Satan---they each get the reward promised them. The saved eternity with God---the lost perish in the devouring fire of God and will be ashes.

 

[Jord Simcha]

And it is clear who the nations are---there are 2 of them---all the nations of the wicked that follow Satan and all the nations of God that follow Him. All the nations that have decided to follow God are collected together at His 2nd coming---He only comes for the saved.

Hate to say it but there are zero nations in the world that follow God.

 

[mmksparbud]

I doubt it. Because it is written that they are enemies of the Gospel, but still beloved (and elect) by the Father. All the way back to Jacob, who is mentioned in the verse. I seriously don't believe that Paul wrote it down and was thinking of some future generation of Jews only. No, ALL of Israel shall be saved.
Shrewd Manager did a decent job of it with the nations.

The best I can do is say that Revelation 22 comes after the lake of fire, or that there is no mention of the lake of fire in 22 (the last chapter), and there is mention of possible conversion in verse 17 as far as I am concerned. So if it is chronological then everybody seems to get out of the lof and can be converted if they're thirsty.

No he most certsonly did not do a decent job---only confirmed that they perish. And FTI ---Revelation is not in chronological order!

 

[mmksparbud]

Hate to say it but there are zero nations in the world that follow God.

The saved are gathered from every nation---they are the nations of God.

Rev_5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev_14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

They will all be gathered at the resurrection---all nations under God.

Satan will have all those from all the nations that followed him---they will perish.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Satan will have all those from all the nations that followed him---they will perish.

So God's promises to save all the nations get reduced down to just some at the end. Is that the law of diminishing returns?

 

[mmksparbud]

So God's promises to save all the nations get reduced down to just some at the end. Is that the law of diminishing returns?

No--it's the law of reading the scriptures without your own personal preferences, reading it as it is, not as you want it. God has said what is to be for those who follow Him and for those who follow Satan. He will do as He says. He will save the nations that are His, and Satan and his nations will be ashes. It's called reality. Choose you this day whom you will serve---you can not choose after death.


Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[Der Alte]

You do have a dry sense of humour der Alter, given that there is no finer example of the method of which you speak than in damnationist theology, for which maybe only a dozen disparate isolated scriptures can be press-ganged together, ripped out of context, key terms translated prejudicially and repackaged into a smouldering bundle of filthy rags, and presented with a bow on it.

Another heterodox practice make vague blanket accusations without any specifics.
The ones who are doing prejudicial, repackaging are folks like you who could not locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it, who don't know a hithpael from a hat, or an aorist from an apple.
I notice in this diatribe you did not address the verses I quoted in my post which you quoted showing me how I supposedly did what you said.

Rev 15:4
"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED."

All these verses are after your proof text.

Rev 16:21
(21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Rev 19:15
(15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:20
(20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21
(21) And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 20:15
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 21:27
(27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:15
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:19
(19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.​

Now this is entirely consistent with the Abrahamic Covenant, Ps 86:9 and Is 66:23. It is consistent with Jesus giving his life for all, undoing the sin of Adam, saving the world, and the gospel being good news for all mankind. It is consistent with God's will that all be saved in 1 Tim 2:4, so that He can be all in all as per 1 Cor 15:28 and Eph 4:6. It is consistent with His grace, justice, mercy, wisdom, holiness and so much else.

A dozen disparate isolated scriptures can be press-ganged together, ripped out of context, key terms translated prejudicially and repackaged into a smouldering bundle of filthy rags, and presented with a bow on it. This deep vein of scripture is now given a certain thrombosis by UR-ites intent on strangling the life out of it.

Nobody knows exactly what that verse means, which goes against the run of blessings in the preceding chapters. 'Their worm shall not die' indicates figurative language (unless we have a tapeworm problem?), and 'their fire' indicates that they are alive - Live carcases with undying worms. That's a great scripture to support damnation der Alter. What do you do for an encore?

That's another heterodox copout. When scripture doesn't fit your narrative "nobody knows what it means."The Jews knew what those verses meant 100s of years ago.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online​

If God can make fire not destroy a bush or three Hebrew slaves I'm quite sure He can make worms that do not die.

 

[Hillsage]

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Romans 11:26-28

Is this not evidence that enemies of the Gospel can get saved (eventually/after death)?

Welcome to the forum Jord. And well done proving that there is salvation AFTER DEATH....to anyone who has a clue how to read and understand the scripture which you just presented. I followed it easily, but have never heard anyone use that verse like you did.

I'd also like to add:

1PE 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

Seems pretty clear that the 'holy Christ Spirit of Jesus' went and PREACHED to the formerly disobedient "spirits in prison" while their fleshly bodies perished in the HADES they call HELL when it 'works' for them. Now I suppose those same 'indoctrinated brethren' might believe that Jesus PREACHED you're all going to hell. But that lie won't fit down my throat. For Jesus to preach that, makes him worse than the false gospel that comes out of their throat.

 

[Der Alte]

...

I'd also like to add:
1PE 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water....

Another out-of-context UR proof text.
Hell/the grave is never called "prison" and "prison" is never called hell/the grave.

Luke 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

Jesus stated what His earthly ministry was it did not include preaching to dead spirits in hell/the grave or anywhere else.
The word translated "captives" αἰχμαλωτός/aixmalotos literally means prisoner of war, who would be alive not dead in the grave.
If Jesus was supposedly preaching to dead spirits in hell why is it that the only people who were saved was Noah and his family who were alive not dead.

 

[Jord Simcha]

Welcome to the forum Jord. And well done proving that there is salvation AFTER DEATH....to anyone who has a clue how to read and understand the scripture which you just presented. I followed it easily, but have never heard anyone use that verse like you did.

Thank you for the welcome and also thanks for the compliment. I'm glad at least somebody believes the passage says what it says.

 

[FineLinen]

Welcome to the forum Jord. And well done proving that there is salvation AFTER DEATH....to anyone who has a clue how to read and understand the scripture which you just presented. I followed it easily, but have never heard anyone use that verse like you did.

I'd also like to add:

1PE 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

Seems pretty clear that the 'holy Christ Spirit of Jesus' went and PREACHED to the formerly disobedient "spirits in prison" while their fleshly bodies perished in the HADES they call HELL when it 'works' for them. Now I suppose those same 'indoctrinated brethren' might believe that Jesus PREACHED you're all going to hell. But that lie won't fit down my throat. For Jesus to preach that, makes him worse than the false gospel that comes out of their throat.

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

Disobedient= apeitheo=

Not to allow one’s self to be persuaded.

To refuse or withhold belief & obedience.

To refuse belief and obedience.

Not to comply with.

Live= zao=

To be alive with resurrection life.

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -J.B. Rotherham Emphasized-

 

[Der Alte]

...

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -J.B. Rotherham Emphasized-

Unfortunately the interpolations by Rotherham are not scripture.

 

[Hillsage]

Another out-of-context UR proof text.
Hell/the grave is never called "prison" and "prison" is never called hell/the grave.

Luke 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

Diatribe. And your verse has no context for your point either, so touche.

soul body go to gehenna what's left out of the triune man equation? SPIRIT.

MAT 10:28 'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Show one verse anywhere that Jesus did prison ministry on earth (deliverance to captives ). NADA.

EPH 4:8 wherefore, he saith, 'Having gone up on high he led captive captivity,

Please don't tell me you believe that was the bodily rapture of the church.

9 and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth? 10 he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things -

ROM 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

I'll just assume you've never heard of 'the law of circularity', so I won't bother getting you in any deeper than you already are.
​

Jesus stated what His earthly ministry was it did not include preaching to dead spirits in hell/the grave or anywhere else.

Uhhh, "His EARTHLY MINISTRY" was over. In case you missed it, He was crucified DEAD and BURIED and RESURRECTED when he PREACHED to spirits of men. So if you don't know His HEAVENLY MINISTRY maybe you need to introduce your self to the SON OF GOD and not just talk about the SON OF MAN. If you can't rightly divide the truth to come to a higher level of spiritual understanding, WE will just likely never agree. Which is why I keep trying to give you 'leave'.

The word translated "captives" αἰχμαλωτός/aixmalotos literally means prisoner of war, who would be alive not dead in the grave.

Agreed, all spirits are eternally alive, only the ignorant think a spirit can die IMO.

If Jesus was supposedly preaching to dead spirits in hell why is it that the only people who were saved was Noah and his family who were alive not dead.

I'm sorry if you were studying to understand what we believe.....for the last 1000 posts on this thread alone, you might have a clue as to the answer for your question above. Where in HELL did you come up with the idea I'm talking about DEAD SPIRITS?

Personally, I'm of the opinion you will never come to a knowledge of 'the truth that the Holy Spirit' teaches with the death grip you have on ORTHODOXY. That's why I really don't want to waste time with you. I've seen nothing from you, FOR YEARS, that I'm interested in trying to deal with you about. I'm more than happy to let you dialogue with those here interested in doing so with you. I'm not.

I'm done responding and happy to just say 'Good bye'. I'll see you in the hereafter when WE both will know the truth....unless your judgment of how wicked I am came from God and not just you.

 

[Hillsage]

Live= zao=

To be alive with resurrection life.

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -J.B. Rotherham Emphasized-

Followed you to this point above. IMO ZAO life is the temporal soul life we ALL have as breathing creatures. ZOE life is the resurrection spiritual life for the hereafter IMO. So have you got a verse 'for the above' for me to look at? And that will be tomorrow. I'm done for tonight.

 

[mmksparbud]

Thank you for the welcome and also thanks for the compliment. I'm glad at least somebody believes the passage says what it says.

It does not say one word about salvation after death.