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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Skidder, Nov 20, 2019.

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  1. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Oops - if we are right, it may come back on you. Did your Lord not tell you not to judge, because by the standard by which you judge, you yourself will be judged? You need to determine with certainty if you stand on the Rock or if on sand.
     
  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Again, partly true, and wholly wrong, promoting false gospel.

    God never says , rather says otherwise, that everyone will one day be saved , in ANY way, shape or form.

    Instead, be afraid, lest anyone fall short (like all the false teachings here) and not enter into His rest.
     
  3. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Two wrongs don't make a left, but three lefts can make a right. ;)
     
  4. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    oops, you have already been proven wrong. For centuries the idea that deceived you was proven wrong.

    Earlier, in some thread post, you did once or more often? admit WHY who changed over to believe the lie.
    I don't remember it, but it was the last couple days I think.
    IF you return to the truth, that would be best for you and everyone in your family and everyone you communicate with.
    IF you do not turn to Yahuweh, if you do not return to the truth, the destiny is as written in Scripture (not good, not eternal life)... (not ever, unless you (each) likewise repent) ....
     
  5. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    He says CLEARLY : JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY (i.e. agree with the FATHER)....
    He is the rock , no other rock ever considered, on which I and the Ekklesia stand , solid , unmovable.

    The quicksand, all the teachings going along with u.r. , are being built upon by those deceived, or willing to build on quicksand.
    When the storm comes, they all will be washed away, having no firm foundation, having not trust in Christ.
     
  6. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    A thing cannot be partly true and wholly wrong.

    If what you say is true, then WHY...

    Did God not mention Hell in His creation account?

    Did God not warn Adam, Eve, Cain and a host of other people about the risk of Hell?

    Did God only tell Abimelech that he was a dead man for taking Abraham's wife, and not that he was headed to Hell?

    Did God not warn His own people, Israel, of the risks of Hell if they disobeyed?

    Did God only warn of simple death - over and over?

    If your Hell is real, your Bible should read very differently, but it does not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  7. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Skid: You have failed to answer each and every question asked of you. I will try again>>>

    Is the same many "made sinners" in Adam "made righteous" in Christ Jesus the Last Adam?

    And, you stated the message of the Restitution of all things (your term UR) is a "false hell", do you know what ascribing to darkness what is of the Holy Spirit is?

    "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He has made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; Wherein He has abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself:That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Hm: In whom also we have obtained an "inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will."
     
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Starting in Genesis, hasatan who promotes u.r., told Havah something partly true, and wholly wrong (sinful) .
     
  9. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    No, you just denounce without having proven me wrong. You have proven nothing.

    If you are talking about the picture of the Tibetan Buddhist Hell, well that was just the beginning, and I did not look into Buddhism for my answer. I looked into the Bible. Evidence again that you do not read rightly. Know this, that I am well acquainted with damnationism, annihilationism and UR. I examined the KJV to see which theory was the best fit for the data, aka the Text. I did this without prejudice, and found UR to be a clear winner, once I had seen through bad theology and bad translation.

    For your information, I turned to Yahuweh at about age 27, and am now pushing 70. Why do you assume I am lost because I reject Hell? Why is Hell so precious to you?
     
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  10. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Another sidestep and insult.
     
  11. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    I simply agree with God's Word, and all the saints for the past 2000 years who have proven u.r. wrong and sinful whenever it came up.

    I simply do not agree with hasatan or any of his cronies who are partly right ,using part of the truth of God's Word, and twisting the essential truth, to promote the false gospel of u.r. ...
     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    An insult? what does God's Word say about anyone , ever, who brings a false gospel ? They are called anathema. Since u.r. has been proven a false gospel, then what does God's Word say about anyone who brings the false gospel ? anathema ....

    Simple, truth, revealing, and painful and denied by those bringing the false gospel. (as always)
     
  13. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Jesus says whoever rejects His Word has already rejected Him and His Father.

    "Hell" as in the mythological meanings from babylon, is not His Word.

    Judgment (permanent, eternal) of the unrepentant wicked IS HIS WORD.

     
  14. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    And I pray for the day that will you understand what God means when He says --dead. And He does not say "be opened" when He destroys the wicked at the 2nd death. And perhaps then you will read and understand the bible instead of foolish ideas of foolish men.
     
  15. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Here is the ultimate reason why Hell cannot be true:

    We all know from Genesis how God made Adam. God took some of the dust of the ground and made a body. However, this body was non-living. So, God then breathed into the nostrils of the body the Spirit of Life...and Adam became a living soul.

    What is this Spirit of Life? It is one of the Seven Spirits mentioned in the Revelation. The other six are listed in Isaiah 11:2, but let's stick with the Spirit of Life. Now when Spirit enters the body, a living soul is made. Conversely, when the soul dies, the body decays and the Spirit returns to God. The person, the living soul, is dead. For that person to live again, the Spirit must enter again, for the Bible offers no other way for a living soul to happen. If you're resurrected in the Kingdom, it is because you have been given the Spirit of Life and I suppose that you then get Glorified.

    On the other hand, what happens if you are tossed into the Lake of Fire, or worse into Hell? Oddly, you must die to go there, but you must be alive/conscious to suffer there. Confusing, but that's the way it is. But it gets worse - to be alive and conscious to suffer Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT), you must have the Spirit of Life in you, and there's the rub. Picture it - the Spirit of Life, one of the Seven Spirits of God...IN HELL. What? Does this sound just a little blasphemous to you? It does to me, and I only mention it to point out how absurd the whole concept of Hell really is.

    So, now you know...and you also know the terrible risk you are taking when you proclaim Hell as being real.
     
  16. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Yes, though for decades ignored by those with tickled ears and led by emotions or feelings instead of truth and justice.

    Another find recently posted in another section: note that all Scripture opposes u.r. completely.

    "Those who reject God's grace will not be brought into Heaven against their will.
    "Continued below.
    "Do All People Go to Heaven?
     
  17. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    All? UR could hardly exist without some Scriptural support, as follows.

    1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. The Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.”

    2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

    3. The Creation is properly a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell – with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

    4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

    5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.

    6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

    7. The Law God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.

    8. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.

    9. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the center or marginal reference column.

    10. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

    11. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.

    12. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.

    13. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.

    14. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

    15. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Fictional descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.

    16. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to destroy them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

    17. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

    18. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

    19. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – usually as fire, but sometimes as soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

    20. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.

    21. “Hell” is used in the King James Version (and others) to replace four other words: “Sheol,” “Hades,” “Gehenna” and “Tartarus.” None of these four refer to a place of damnation or Eternal Conscious Torment. See any decent dictionary, especially the Oxford English Dictionary.

    22. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

    23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, such as the “Hel” we find in Norse mythology, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.
     
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  18. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    A bit more about "Hel," the Norse goddess/ogress of her underworld realm of "Helheim," or "House of Hel": Hel (Goddess) - Norse Mythology for Smart People

    Naturally, I don't believe in Norse mythology, but I offer this as one of the origins of the Hell myth. Both forms, "Hel" and "Hell," are found in Beowulf and the 1611 KJV. If that does not worry the reader, it should.
     
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  19. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    hasatan could possibly have not deceived Havah (Eve) unless he mixed in "God's Word" for support in passing off his lies.

    Since all of u.r. is rejected by Jesus, and by the Father, and by all Scripture taken as a whole and individually in complete harmony, therefore u.r. is not accepted by the followers of Jesus , the Ekklesia born again by the will of the Father in heaven, nor by anyone who has been made aware of and believes the truth from the Father as He Reveals it all through His Own Word and His Own Spirit.
     
  20. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    WONDRFUL! realizing the errors of mythology though, is not any redemption for following a false gospel (another MYTH) used in its place.
     
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