Best Argument For or Against God's Existence

[GrimKingGrim]

Why not?

It seems nothing in this universe is controlled at all. It's all mindless and uncaring. And so far it's still what it is without a guiding "hand."

The question is not why not, can't argue a negative in that sense. It's why would the universe need a god?

 

[Achilles6129]

It seems nothing in this universe is controlled at all. It's all mindless and uncaring. And so far it's still what it is without a guiding "hand."

So things like gravity, the speed of light, the speed of sound, etc., don't suggest a guiding hand to you?

The question is not why not, can't argue a negative in that sense. It's why would the universe need a god?

The existence of anything is evidence for a Creator. The universe would need a God to bring it into being. Easy answer.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

So things like gravity, the speed of light, the speed of sound, etc., don't suggest a guiding hand to you?

No. Because they aren't consistent sans the speed of light. You can mess with them all.

The existence of anything is evidence for a Creator. The universe would need a God to bring it into being. Easy answer.

So this couldn't happen on its own? You just jump straight to a magic genie? Instead of saying, "Don't know, so God." Search for an answer that doesn't break the rules of reality.

 

[Achilles6129]

No. Because they aren't consistent sans the speed of light. You can mess with them all.

If gravity is off by even a fraction this planet is an iceball or a flaming meteor.

So this couldn't happen on its own? You just jump straight to a magic genie? Instead of saying, "Don't know, so God." Search for an answer that doesn't break the rules of reality.

Is one of the rules of reality that something can come out of nothing? Every existing thing has another thing that brought it into existence. The universe exists, so according to the rules of reality something else brought it into existence. And it makes the most sense that that something else is God.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

If gravity is off by even a fraction this planet is an iceball or a flaming meteor.

Laughably inaccurate.

Is one of the rules of reality that something can come out of nothing?

Quantum

 

[Archaeopteryx]

A 'god' that we make up is no god.

Even science seeks patterns (I pattern deer movements, in fact I'm checking a trail camera this afternoon).

Yes, but science acknowledges that our pattern detecting minds sometimes detect patterns that are not really there.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The existence of anything is evidence for a Creator.

In what way?

The universe would need a God to bring it into being. Easy answer.

It seems like an intellectually lazy answer to me.

Is one of the rules of reality that something can come out of nothing? Every existing thing has another thing that brought it into existence. The universe exists, so according to the rules of reality something else brought it into existence.

If you want to base your argument on the "rules of the universe" then that already poses problem for your theology. As far as we know, there's no "rule of the universe" that states that unembodied minds are capable of creating matter and energy ex nihilo.

And it makes the most sense that that something else is God.

You need to show that it makes sense rather than merely asserting it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yes, but science acknowledges that our pattern detecting minds sometimes detect patterns that are not really there.

I've gotten two images of the same deer on that trail. It might be a pattern. Deer are creatures of habit after all.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

People believe - even in a religious or quasi-religious way - all kind of things?

Why would "belief in God" be an exception?

Why would people make up such an 'unbelievable' God, then believe in Him? If you're going to make up a god, make him nicer, more accommodating to our desires.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yes, but science acknowledges that our pattern detecting minds sometimes detect patterns that are not really there.

Science is in the process of doing just that as well. They already have discovered that everything is (apparently) made of energy. They will soon discover (or not) that there is no detectable sustaining source of that energy, which is the word/spirit of God which upholds all things.

 

[Belk]

Actually, we may be near the center of the universe:

Our galaxy is the centre of the universe, 'quantized' redshifts show - creation.com

Creation.com? I prefer my science be made by real scientists. Not people trying to support their religious views. Thanks though.

 

[Belk]

I've gotten two images of the same deer on that trail. It might be a pattern. Deer are creatures of habit after all.

And Jesus regularly appears on toasted bread.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Science is in the process of doing just that as well. They already have discovered that everything is (apparently) made of energy. They will soon discover (or not) that there is no detectable sustaining source of that energy, which is the word/spirit of God which upholds all things.

Your post does not make sense. I read it a few times and gave up.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

The existence of anything is evidence for a Creator. The universe would need a God to bring it into being. Easy answer.

Does this rule regarding existence also apply to the existence of a Creator? Wouldn't God need a Creator as well?

If not, why the exception for God? Why can't the same exception be made for the universe?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Is one of the rules of reality that something can come out of nothing? Every existing thing has another thing that brought it into existence. The universe exists, so according to the rules of reality something else brought it into existence. And it makes the most sense that that something else is God.

I'm not aware of any law that says things can't come from nothing. It hasn't been observed but then again, we've never really observed "nothing." Also keep in mind that the laws of the universe only apply within the universe. Anything that happens before, after or outside the universe, doesn't necessarily have to follow the same rules or even make any sense to us, who are limited to the confines of the universe.

Again, you make the claim that everything that exists must have been created at some point by a Creator. You claim this Creator exists... well the most obvious question is, who or what created the Creator?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Anything that happens before, after or outside the universe, doesn't necessarily have to follow the same rules or even make any sense to us, who are limited to the confines of the universe.

A good reason keep studying the known universe, and leaving the unknown universe to religion. Religion makes a connection between the two, science doesn't. In that science is one-dimensional; religion, more than one.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

A good reason keep studying the known universe, and leaving the unknown universe to religion. Religion makes a connection between the two, science doesn't. In that science is one-dimensional; religion, more than one.

Precisely. Religion can have the multi-dimensional, imaginary world beyond our universe. Science will continue to deal with reality, as it is. That's the world I'm interested in.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Precisely. Religion can have the multi-dimensional, imaginary world beyond our universe. Science will continue to deal with reality, as it is. That's the world I'm interested in.

We all live in the same world. We just look at it differently. If I followed a scientist around all day I doubt if I would see him or her doing anything much different from anyone else (of course you can't observe thoughts).

 

[Achilles6129]

Creation.com? I prefer my science be made by real scientists. Not people trying to support their religious views. Thanks though.

So you don't believe that young earth creationists can be real scientists? Everything they say must be wrong then, huh?

 

[Achilles6129]

Does this rule regarding existence also apply to the existence of a Creator? Wouldn't God need a Creator as well?

If not, why the exception for God? Why can't the same exception be made for the universe?

You answered your own question right here:

Also keep in mind that the laws of the universe only apply within the universe. Anything that happens before, after or outside the universe, doesn't necessarily have to follow the same rules or even make any sense to us, who are limited to the confines of the universe.

Precisely. God is outside of time, so the normal idea that everything that exists must have come from something doesn't apply to God.