Best Argument For or Against God's Existence

[quatona]

I don't think so. Such a lake is not a necessary being like God would be. Rather, this lake is a contingent being. Hence the same argument cannot apply.

Yes, this lake is posited as a necessary being. Or else it wouldn´t be the "maximally greatest lake".

 

[durangodawood]

Strictly speaking, probably not. "Nothing" is a problematic concept. Even a vacuum is something.

I think I've identified your major problem, philosophically:

You expect that the world/reality must make sense to us, to our minds. A problematic concept might might merely be problematic to us, but not to reality.

 

[Achilles6129]

So TreeofLife believes the best argument for the existence of God is the ontological argument? Here are a few articles related to the subject:

Anselm: Ontological Argument for the God’s Existence | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

St. Anselm, Archbishop of Cantebury (1033-1109), is the originator of the ontological argument, which he describes in the Proslogium as follows:

[Even a] fool, when he hears of … a being than which nothing greater can be conceived … understands what he hears, and what he understands is in his understanding.… And assuredly that, than which nothing greater can be conceived, cannot exist in the understanding alone. For suppose it exists in the understanding alone: then it can be conceived to exist in reality; which is greater.… Therefore, if that, than which nothing greater can be conceived, exists in the understanding alone, the very being, than which nothing greater can be conceived, is one, than which a greater can be conceived. But obviously this is impossible. Hence, there is no doubt that there exists a being, than which nothing greater can be conceived, and it exists both in the understanding and in reality.

The argument in this difficult passage can accurately be summarized in standard form:
1.It is a conceptual truth (or, so to speak, true by definition) that God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (that is, the greatest possible being that can be imagined).
2.God exists as an idea in the mind.
3.A being that exists as an idea in the mind and in reality is, other things being equal, greater than a being that exists only as an idea in the mind.
4.Thus, if God exists only as an idea in the mind, then we can imagine something that is greater than God (that is, a greatest possible being that does exist).
5.But we cannot imagine something that is greater than God (for it is a contradiction to suppose that we can imagine a being greater than the greatest possible being that can be imagined.)
6.Therefore, God exists.

Ontological Arguments (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Misunderstanding the Ontological Argument | Reasonable Faith

Ontological Argument for the Existence of God | Reasonable Faith

That being said, what does everyone think the best argument against the existence of God is? Or, can anyone think of a better argument for God's existence than the ontological argument?

 

[durangodawood]

The ontological argument is just awful.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The ontological argument is just awful.

Agreed.

 

[Belk]

So TreeofLife believes the best argument for the existence of God is the ontological argument? Here are a few articles related to the subject:

Anselm: Ontological Argument for the God’s Existence | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy



Ontological Arguments (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Misunderstanding the Ontological Argument | Reasonable Faith

Ontological Argument for the Existence of God | Reasonable Faith

That being said, what does everyone think the best argument against the existence of God is? Or, can anyone think of a better argument for God's existence than the ontological argument?

Any god or the Christian God specifically?

 

[TillICollapse]

The ontological argument is just awful.

I want to see Maximally Great Being comic books.

 

[Belk]

I want to see Maximally Great Being comic books.

So...
One Above All?



One-Above-All (Multiverse) - Marvel Comics Database

 

[TillICollapse]

So...
One Above All?



One-Above-All (Multiverse) - Marvel Comics Database

At least you didn't mention the Presence (which would have lead to Constantine and the origin of Jesus in that mythos lol) ...

 

[Ken-1122]

Hello all,

In your opinion, what's the very best argument for the existence of God? Conversely, what's the top argument against the existence of God? Interested to hear your responses and subsequent reasoning. Thanks!

I would say one of the best arguments against the existence of God are the inconsistent claims of those who claim to know him.

Ken

 

[durangodawood]

I find the best argument against God's existence is the massive anthropological evidence that human beings are prolific myth-makers.

 

[bhsmte]

I find the best argument against God's existence is the massive anthropological evidence that human beings are prolific myth-makers.

We are suckers for a good story.

 

[quatona]

Anselm: Ontological Argument for the God’s Existence | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

The argument in this difficult passage can accurately be summarized in standard form:
1.It is a conceptual truth (or, so to speak, true by definition) that God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (that is, the greatest possible being that can be imagined).
2.God exists as an idea in the mind.
3.A being that exists as an idea in the mind and in reality is, other things being equal, greater than a being that exists only as an idea in the mind.
4.Thus, if God exists only as an idea in the mind, then we can imagine something that is greater than God (that is, a greatest possible being that does exist).
5.But we cannot imagine something that is greater than God (for it is a contradiction to suppose that we can imagine a being greater than the greatest possible being that can be imagined.)
6.Therefore, God exists.




That being said, what does everyone think the best argument against the existence of God is?

The facts that believers come up with such semantics wizardry and that such a desperate argument has been brought forth for 1000 years as a strong argument at least doensn´t suggest to me that there´s much substance to the claim that it is supposed to support.

Funnily enough, the argument implies that Satan doesn´t exist.
Satan is, by definition, the maximally least being we can conceive of. A being that doesn´t exist or exists only in our minds is lesser than a being that actually exists. Therefore, Satan can´t exist.

The trick, of course, lies in the attempt to treat "existence in reality" and "non-existence" or "existence in our minds" as properties of beings. While actually a being that doesn´t exist or exists only in our minds isn´t a being, in the first place. It´s not a lesser being, but none at all.
(Apart from the fact that you don´t get to construct a solid argument by means of employing unspecific qualifiers of valuation such as "greatest", and some other minor flaws).

Or, can anyone think of a better argument for God's existence than the ontological argument?

The other standard arguments aren´t much better.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I guess in the end is just a matter of faith on both sides...

Not really. You might confusing faith for a lack of faith.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Again, that goes along with the definition of God. If God weren't necessary then he wouldn't be God. So the question is whether God is impossible or necessary. There's really no middle ground.

I like TheMessianicManic's response to this: Consider a Realicorn; it's like a unicorn, except that it is defined as existing. Existence simply goes along with the definition of a Realicorn. Because its existence is built into the definition of the thing, if you agree with the definition, you must believe that a Realicorn is real.

 

[quatona]

Yeah, we just have to define something as necessary, and - zadong - it will exist. Amazing.

 

[Achilles6129]

Any god or the Christian God specifically?

I would say any God, but you could answer both if you'd like.

 

[Davian]

Yeah, we just have to define something as necessary, and - zadong - it will exist. Amazing.

Or, take Tree of Life's approach, and declare that those claiming *not* to believe in your "something" are liars, to the same effect. Presto!

 

[GrimKingGrim]

I'd say the best argument against a god is that there is no established need for one in the first place.

 

[Davian]

I'd say the best argument against a god is that there is no established need for one in the first place.

It is my understanding that it is the religion that establishes the need, for which only they can provide the solution.

[gangster voice]

"Nice soul you've got there. Would be a shame if it were tortured forever"

[/gangster voice]