Before Birth

[A New Dawn]

On the contrary:

UT is a forum for all discussion of unorthodox theology and fellowship.(From your sticky)

I could have easily said "I was surprised" at the voting and probably not gotten flagged. I meant no disrespect, and apologize to anyone who may have been offended by my comparison.

Phantasman, what I quoted originally came from the SoP for the forum. Go read it again. I'm sure you'll see it.

Unorthodox Theology is where unorthodox theologies can be discussed. That is a given. It is also where those unorthodox theologies are contrasted to orthodox theology so the error in unorthodox theologies can be demonstrated. There is no place where unorthodox theologies can be promoted.

 

[Norah63]

Where does your spirit come from if you believe that it was not with God before you were born?
Forgive if this was already asked, I have not read all the posts.

 

[RDKirk]

Where does your spirit come from if you believe that it was not with God before you were born?
Forgive if this was already asked, I have not read all the posts.

First, I would disagree with the qualification of "before you were born."

Scripture is clear that "I" was "me" before I was born because it's clear that God knew "me" as "me." That indicates to me that my spirit was already in my material body by then--it's not something that gets inserted only at the moment of leaving the womb.

So the question is whether my spirit existed prior to my conception...and if it did, was that disembodied spirit "me?"

I don't think it's necessary to assert that all spirits are pre-existent. God certainly has the ability to create each spirit as each person is conceived.

(However, the fact that God is extemporally simultaneous introduces a timey-wimey aspect that makes it difficult to comprehend the difference from His viewpoint between what came first and what has always been in being.)

I would assert, though, that living a self-aware life in a material body is what makes me "me," and that if there had been a non-self-aware pre-existent spiritual essence that would someday be inserted into a material body that would someday be "me," it was no more "me" while in that non-self-aware pre-existent state than were the molecules of chemicals that would one day make up my physical body.

 

[Norah63]

Thank you for that answer. The last paragraph gave me a clear understanding of how you view this topic.

 

[Phantasman]

Phantasman, what I quoted originally came from the SoP for the forum. Go read it again. I'm sure you'll see it.

Unorthodox Theology is where unorthodox theologies can be discussed. That is a given. It is also where those unorthodox theologies are contrasted to orthodox theology so the error in unorthodox theologies can be demonstrated. There is no place where unorthodox theologies can be promoted.

I get your point. I understand the rules. As a former Moderator for many years at a political site, I try to remain in the "acceptable" thread posts while in debate. With all due respect, I have seen closed or removed threads when an Unorthodox idea cannot be disproved by the Orthodox believers, who in turn complain to have the thread removed. Killing debates is where our government is right now. As we used to say at Freetalk, "our forum, our rules". I understand that is the way here as well.

 

[Albion]

I would assert, though, that living a self-aware life in a material body is what makes me "me," and that if there had been a non-self-aware pre-existent spiritual essence that would someday be inserted into a material body that would someday be "me," it was no more "me" while in that non-self-aware pre-existent state than were the molecules of chemicals that would one day make up my physical body.

and may we add...

This is the reason that Christian theologians have long maintained that the resurrection of the body (a cardinal article in the Nicene Creed) exists. Wouldn't it be sufficient for us to simply go on in the afterlife as disembodied spirits, working or praising God or whatever it is that we'll do for eternity? No. The Christian belief has been from early times that--as the Bible says--the dead shall come forth from their graves and the sea give up its dead, so that spirit and body (a glorified one, of course) will be reunited and we will be whole again.

 

[RDKirk]

In "The Matrix" movie, how would Cypher have ever known if the Agents fulfilled their part of the bargain to place him back into the Matrix? He understood that he would be a different person with no memory of who he had been in the past...so how would he know they wouldn't just kill him?

 

[RDKirk]

and may we add...

This is the reason that Christian theologians have long maintained that the resurrection of the body (a cardinal article in the Nicene Creed) exists. Wouldn't it be sufficient for us to simply go on in the afterlife as disembodied spirits, working or praising God or whatever it is that we'll do for eternity? No. The Christian belief has been from early times that--as the Bible says--the dead shall come forth from their graves and the sea give up its dead, so that spirit and body (a glorified one, of course) will be reunited and we will be whole again.

Yes.

But while it's clear to me that my spirit will be "with the Lord" in the interim between my death and my physical resurrection, it's not clear to me that my spirit will necessarily be self-aware during that interim. I don't see a reliable indication in scripture that we will be self-aware "ghosts" prior to resurrection.

In Jude, the angel Michael seems quite concerned about gaining possession of Moses' body. The interesting question is: Why?

 

[Albion]

Yes.

But while it's clear to me that my spirit will be "with the Lord" in the interim between my death and my physical resurrection, it's not clear to me that my spirit will necessarily be self-aware during that interim. I don't see a reliable indication in scripture that we will be self-aware "ghosts" prior to resurrection.

In Jude, the angel Michael seems quite concerned about gaining possession of Moses' body. The interesting question is: Why?

I dunno. In fact, this whole phenomenon of ghosts mystifies me. They seem real, but to what end? Do they wander around pointlessly until the second coming? In fact, most seem to stay in the same spot and do the same few things endlessly rather than wander. How does this accomplish anything in God's planning?

Mediums et al never talk about the world in which the spirits exist, you notice (which is not an endorsement of spiritualism or the like). Just that they are OK and want their relatives to know it blah blah blah. And as for near death experiences, well, none of these folks actually died, although some of their accounts are impressive.

 

[Norah63]

Absent from the body, present with the Lord. That pleases me.
However each comprehends their life when this one is over, till the body is reunited with the spirit in the resurrection.
Any scriptures come to mind for anyone?

 

[RDKirk]

Absent from the body, present with the Lord. That pleases me.
However each comprehends their life when this one is over, till the body is reunited with the spirit in the resurrection.
Any scriptures come to mind for anyone?

All scriptures that reference life after death prior to resurrection call it "sleep."

 

[drstevej]

I can only perceive this to mean that God is partial. Why would He choose some and not others? What am I missing?

Is not His Grace extended to all?

Paul anticipates your question...

Romans 9

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Embrace Paul's gospel rather than the gospel of the Angel Moroni. None deserve eternal life, it is a GIFT.

 

[n2thelight]

Again I ask,why did God hate Esau?

 

[MormonFriend]

Paul anticipates your question...

Romans 9



Embrace Paul's gospel rather than the gospel of the Angel Moroni. None deserve eternal life, it is a GIFT.

Paul's words cannot suggest that God is not just, nor that He is a respecter of persons. Why would scripture tell us of God's attributes if we were not to plainly understand those attributes? It appears to me that you believe God saves and condemns persons according to His will, without any attachments of the persons actions and choices. Or some say that we cannot make the choice until God calls us to do so, hence the rest are condemned because God did not call them. I cannot imagine anything more unjust, and demonstrates a God who is a respecter of persons. You have puzzle pieces that don't fit.

I see the reason in this particular part of your puzzle not fitting is that you look at it believing that we are created from nothing. The words of Paul take on a much different meaning when one knows that who we are stems from an eternal existence that is given opportunity to realize our potential, and knowing that among these eternal entities there are many that must be separated because of their selfish and evil inclinations.

 

[drstevej]

The words of Paul take on a much different meaning when one knows that who we are stems from an eternal existence that is given opportunity to realize our potential, and knowing that among these eternal entities there are many that must be separated because of their selfish and evil inclinations.

Pouring Paul through a Mormon filter removes Paul and gives you another gospel.

Salvation is a GIFT not a blue ribbon for achievement. All of us are selfish and have evil inclinations. We need forgiveness not a make-over.

 

[joneysd]

Pouring Paul through a Mormon filter removes Paul and gives you another gospel.

Salvation is a GIFT not a blue ribbon for achievement. All of us are selfish and have evil inclinations. We need forgiveness not a make-over.

amen well said.

relying on our own good deeds is like relying on the law for our salvation just rely on the finished work of Jesus.

 

[Phantasman]

Pouring Paul through a Mormon filter removes Paul and gives you another gospel.

Salvation is a GIFT not a blue ribbon for achievement. All of us are selfish and have evil inclinations. We need forgiveness not a make-over.

There was one Gospel. It was given to 12 Disciples. and heard by 7 women as well. Christ said to teach it to all nations.

Now if you believe Pauls is the same. so be it. If you believe the MMLJ is it, so be it. If you believe the Bible is the Gospel, so be it.

But some believers accept Gospel as wisdom from God through Christ. It is an old English term from God and spell. Personally, I believe the Disciple Thomas over Paul. To me, the sheep hear the shepherds voice. I don't follow dictated scriptures of men, but all scriptures containing a place where I hear the shepherds voice.

A gift is not something given freely. We earn it by crucifixion and bearing the cross of Christ. Becoming one with him. We do pay for it with our own free will. Do you need for me to explain that further?

As to a make over, I disagree. Being born again IS a make over. A do over. To start a life on the right path of faith, love and good works compared to the old path of self and disdain. As a chaplain, do you not see that?

 

[Norah63]

I am also interested in why Esau was hated.
And our spirits came down from our creator God, and will return the same imo.
This idea of we were nothing before birth, then instead of being absent from the body, present with the Lord, an idea of soul sleep, can't see that either.
Those to me are unorthodox views. Isn't communication all in how we develope spiritually.

 

[RDKirk]

I am also interested in why Esau was hated.
And our spirits came down from our creator God, and will return the same imo.
This idea of we were nothing before birth, then instead of being absent from the body, present with the Lord, an idea of soul sleep, can't see that either.
Those to me are unorthodox views. Isn't communication all in how we develop spiritually.

The point Paul makes is that Esau was not "hated" (that is, not chosen for the promise) because of anything about Esau. There was nothing about Esau, nothing he did one way or another that caused God to choose Jacob instead.

The custom of man would have selected the older son, but Paul's point is that God is not bound by the custom of man--God is sovereign to make His choice according to His will--which may well be totally arcane to man.

The reason Paul was making that point was to disprove the Jewish believers who thought that only a Jew could be saved because they believed that following the procedures of the law obligated God to save Jews, as though it were a wage for their work according to the Law. Therefore, in their minds, any man had to first adhere to the procedures of Jews to obligate God to fulfill the promise of salvation as a wage.

 

[Ran77]

Just curious to know,how many if any believe we were with God before being born?

I feel that we were,will show scripture I feel supports this soon.....

I believe that we existed with God before our birth on Earth.