Before Birth

Do you believe we were with God before birth

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St_Worm2

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Job was there,we just don't remember that time.........

Of all the things He could have asked or pointed out to Job, why in the world would God have asked him this particular set of rhetorical questions if he had actually been there at the time (whether he remembered it or not) .. :scratch:
"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know so much. Who determined its dimensions and stretched out the surveying line? What supports its foundations, and who laid its cornerstone as the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?" Job 38:4-7
Please don't take this the wrong way, but where was Christ before He was born of woman?

I'm not sure what you mean by "take this the wrong way" as it is a legitimate question. Where was God the Son prior to His incarnation? I don't know, I wasn't there, but if I had to guess, I'd say "everywhere" (seeing that He is omnipresent).

We also know that He presented Himself locally at times, as a bush, as a pillar of fire, etc. I think He even wrote something on a pair of stone tablets once (or was that twice .. ;)). Anyway, He definitely got around.

Look (jumping up onto my "soapbox" now), I know you think you've discovered something that the church and all of her myriad of scholars have missed for over 2,000 years, but I have to tell you, you need to think this through again with just the Bible in hand (IOW, w/o trying to accommodate all the presuppositions you're bringing to the table).

It has been proven to me that even an atheist, if he is skilled enough to do a proper exegesis of the Biblical text, can understand what the Lord was trying to convey (he just can't make the sense out of it 'spiritually' that a Christian can because he doesn't have the HS). I also know a Jewish rabbi who did his doctrinal thesis on the Gospel of John. He knows that Gospel and understands what it says as well as any Christian theologian I've ever known due to the highly detailed study and exegesis he did of and on the Text, but as he told me bluntly, he just doesn't believe what it says is true. Again, a 'spiritual' problem exists for him as well.

You, unlike the atheist and the rabbi, are a Christian and, therefore, have the mind of Christ like the rest of us. But the eisegesis you're engaging in here is only going to lead you away from the truth, not closer to it. Of course, you're always welcome to 'take on the church' and what it believes. St. Athanasius did so necessarily and successfully. But he had what you do not, a sound exegesis that clearly showed the church where it had erred.

Admonishment complete. I'm stepping of my soapbox. Now I hope that you haven't taken what I've said the wrong way .. :eek:

Yours and His,
David

"No one has seen the Father except the One who is from God.
Only He has seen the Father."
John 6:46
 
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A New Dawn

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If we were created from nothing, then everything we are is the result of what God made us to be. How could that harmonize with a Just God who judges us, and rewards or condemns us because He made us that way?

He doesn't reward or condemn us for who we were created to be. He condemns us for the sin we commit as a result of the fall. The fall changed who we are, so we are not the same as when God created us. It is our fault we are in this position. He chooses to save some, even though He doesn't have to. He does this out of grace.
 
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St_Worm2

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He doesn't reward or condemn us for who we were created to be. He condemns us for the sin we commit as a result of the fall. The fall changed who we are, so we are not the same as when God created us. It is our fault we are in this position. He chooses to save some, even though He doesn't have to. He does this out of grace.

.. :thumbsup:
 
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MormonFriend

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Originally Posted by MormonFriend
If we were created from nothing, then everything we are is the result of what God made us to be. How could that harmonize with a Just God who judges us, and rewards or condemns us because He made us that way?
Hi MF, I don't believe we were created ex nihilo (did I say we were?). God created Adam from the dust of the earth, breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and he became a living soul (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45). Then He made Eve from Adam, and the rest of us are begotten.



--David

"Thus saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation
of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. Behold, I will make
Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about..."
Zechariah 12:1-2
As I have had a similar discussions before, in today's Christianity ultimately all things were created exnihilo. We were created from the dust of the earth, and that dust was created how? And what is the origin of our spirits? The end results must harmonize with the fact that we are different personalities, and use the free will that God blessed us with in ways that either save us or condemn us.
Was there ever a period that our existence was nowhere to be? If so, then what we are, especially that part which defines character and personality, and what we become is the explicit responsibility of the Creator. How could a loving and impartial God ever condemn someone for being exactly how he was created?

I look forward to your input without interruption by those with whom have shared this topic with me before, that is unless they wish to question your response.
 
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MormonFriend

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He doesn't reward or condemn us for who we were created to be. He condemns us for the sin we commit as a result of the fall. The fall changed who we are, so we are not the same as when God created us. It is our fault we are in this position. He chooses to save some, even though He doesn't have to. He does this out of grace.

I can only perceive this to mean that God is partial. Why would He choose some and not others? What am I missing?

Is not His Grace extended to all?
 
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MormonFriend

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Originally Posted by MormonFriend
I can only perceive this to mean that God is partial.
That's right. Do you suppose that the creator of all that exists has to meet your standards of fair play?
I suppose that scripture tells us of God's standards and attributes, so that when false notions and teachings are presented, we can know if it is true. Being "partial", in my statement above, would also mean being a "respecter of persons.". These verses in Acts 10 tell us that He is not a respecter of persons, and that His standards of "fair play" are set in that His acceptence of us has revealed criteria.


34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

If otherwise, what do you think these scriptures mean? How and where would these puzzle pieces fit in the big picture of your faith?
 
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MormonFriend

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Hi MF, is it your belief then that, like God, we are all from everlasting to everlasting, ?...

Yes, but not in the same form, surroundings and conditions. We believe that "eternal" means just that, no beginning and no end. But that is the only "like God" comparison.


... and that He is not our Creator .. :scratch:
A potter takes clay and creates. In our case, we (the clay) are not all malleable. The pride and rebellion within us, as I understand it, comes from those eternal properties from which we came from. This pride can be purged from us, but not without facing oppositions and making independent choices. Scripture makes reference to this opposition as the refiner's fire. Scripture also speaks of salvation as something for those who "endure to the end." The Refiner is certainly putting us through a fire as He tries our faith.

God is our Creator, and His love for us is beyond our comprehension.
 
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A New Dawn

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I can only perceive this to mean that God is partial. Why would He choose some and not others? What am I missing?

Is not His Grace extended to all?

Since grace is unmerited favor (or, another way to put it, to receive something you don't deserve), there are many types of grace that are not salvation, so yes, some grace is extended to all. This is called common grace.

Matthew 5:44-45 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Salvation is another grace that God extends to some, and no matter which faith you belong to, you also believe that salvation is not extended to all. It's kind of the pot/kettle thing to suggest that I believe in a God that is biased when your belief in God puts him in the exact same spot.
 
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n2thelight

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He doesn't reward or condemn us for who we were created to be. He condemns us for the sin we commit as a result of the fall. The fall changed who we are, so we are not the same as when God created us. It is our fault we are in this position. He chooses to save some, even though He doesn't have to. He does this out of grace.

How could the fall had changed who we are,if we were not there,and had nothing to do with it.....Or should I ask,what fall are you referring?
 
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Albion

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How could the fall had changed who we are,if we were not there,and had nothing to do with it.....Or should I ask,what fall are you referring?

Events in the past often affect the course of later events. This is pretty hard to miss. In Christianity, "the Fall" means Adam and Eve's sin against the Lord that caused all their descendants to be born in sin or with an inclination towards sin, to have to experience death, etc. It's all in the Bible.
 
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n2thelight

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Events in the past often affect the course of later events. This is pretty hard to miss. In Christianity, "the Fall" means Adam and Eve's sin against the Lord that caused all their descendants to be born in sin or with an inclination towards sin, to have to experience death, etc. It's all in the Bible.

So what would you have us do with the katabol,meaning satan's fall....In other words,what were we doing,during that time?

Events of the past,yea they did affect us,however,it goes back much futher than Adam and Eve
 
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n2thelight

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I keep harken on this,only because it's very important


Where do you all think we were before satan decided to challenge God?satan didn't come out,straight being evil,as matter of fact,he was God's right hand man,after Christ.....


Does anybody look at life during the time when satan wasn't evil?You never ever wonder,what was going on?If you understood the 3 earth and Heaven ages,it would become clear,and all of scripture would open up like the red sea....At least it did for me....


If anyone is interested please read the article from the link below

Pre-Existence before the Katabolé – Satan’s war with God

Excerpt below

[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]It is important to know the truth about the End Time prophecies, why we are here now and the age of the Earth. [/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]When a person is considering becoming a Christian, we as teachers can’t be ignorant. Our answer to that new Christian must be supported by scripture so we can direct the person to read the truth. In this article we are going to look at the scriptural support for pre-existence and predestination from the viewpoint of the Katabolé. Does scripture identify where the line is drawn between God’s foreknowledge and an actual pre-existing relationship before we were sent to Earth to inhabit these bodies.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]The History of Pre-Existence [/FONT]

[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]The apostle Paul mentions the mystery kept secret since the ‘world’ began:[/FONT]

[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]Romans 16:25[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,[/FONT]

[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]This mystery kept secret is God’s full plan for the restoration to grace of Man and the Earth after the fall of Satan. Throughout history as Satan learned small pieces of the plan, he would move to block God’s plan:[/FONT]

  • [FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]The corruption of Eve[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]The Nephilim – Sons of God mixing with woman[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]The Anakim and [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]Rapheim[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]before Noah’s flood[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]The giants in the promise land[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]The corruption of David [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]Herod killing all the male babies [/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]Again I know some may think Im crazy,but I only did what Paul said,and that was to get off the milk,and get into the meat of God's Word....[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
 
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n2thelight

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That occurred before any of us was born.

Yes it did,that's the whole point,Im trying to get people to see,and that is,we were there......

I mean,satan turns evil,and instead of God destroying him and his follower's right then and there,He decides to make man,with satan as his tempter,come on now,what kind of God do you think we serve?
 
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Evergreen48

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That's right. Do you suppose that the creator of all that exists has to meet your standards of fair play?

From whom do you think we received our "standards of fair play"?


MormonFriend said:
I can only perceive this to mean that God is partial. Why would He choose some and not others? What am I missing?

Is not His Grace extended to all?


Yes indeed his grace is extended to all! The idea that God chose some to have a home in heaven one day while letting others perish is not biblical. Salvation is all about working toward immortality in this life. [Please note that I said "working TOWARD immortality, not working FOR immortality. There is a vast difference between the two things.] By his grace each and every human being is given the same opportunity to work toward immortality. That is one example of God's grace. Another example of his grace was when he softened the obdurate hearts of those Gentiles whom he had chosen to be a part of the Church that Jesus said that he would build [the Church which would be responsible from one generation to the next for heralding the good news of Jesus down through the ages that all might learn of their salvation in him, even down to this present time.] These people had never known anything about the true and the living God of the Jews, and so, it was by extraordinary means that he did so. To explain a little more about this grace, it would be kind of the same principle as when someone from a foreign nation comes to our country and applies for citizenship here. It is by our graciousness that they are permitted to become citizens of our country. It was by God's gracious loving kindness through the Holy Spirit's extraordinary workings that the Gentiles were also brought into his Church.

Rom. 2:1. "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4. Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5. But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6.
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11. For there is no respect of persons with God."
 
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