Before Birth

[n2thelight]

Just curious to know,how many if any believe we were with God before being born?

I feel that we were,will show scripture I feel supports this soon.....

 

[Evergreen48]

Just curious to know,how many if any believe we were with God before being born?

I feel that we were,will show scripture I feel supports this soon.....

No, I don't believe we were with God before birth, but certainly he knew about each individual in the human race. I believe he had a purpose for allowing each one of us to be born into the world.

Psa. 139:13 "For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
14. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.a
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15. My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16. Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them."

 

[St_Worm2]

Just curious to know,how many if any believe we were with God before being born? I feel that we were,will show scripture I feel supports this soon.....

Hi n2thelight, I don't believe in "soul banks", but the LDS do. If you go to their website they will, no doubt, have a couple of verses listed there to persuade others that the pre-existence of souls is true. The problem is, the verses they posit don't teach what they want them to, especially in context. But eisegesis never seems to be a problem for cults who attempt to support their extra-Biblical beliefs with the Bible.

Yours and His,
David

 

[MormonFriend]

If we were created from nothing, then everything we are is the result of what God made us to be. How could that harmonize with a Just God who judges us, and rewards or condemns us because He made us that way?

 

[n2thelight]

To know where we were before birth,one must understand that there was an age before the one we are currently in.....

God made all souls at the same time,it was during this time that satan,then know as Lucifer decided to rebell.....

For scriptual proof let's go to the Book of Job

Job 38 :: King James Version (KJV)

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy?

Just one question,for those who don't know where we were

Are you a son of God????

Will elaborate more later.......

 

[St_Worm2]

To know where we were before birth,one must understand that there was an age before the one we are currently in.....

God made all souls at the same time,it was during this time that satan,then know as Lucifer decided to rebell.....

For scriptual proof let's go to the Book of Job

Job 38 :: King James Version (KJV)

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy?

Just one question,for those who don't know where we were

Are you a son of God????

Am I a son of God? By adoption, yes. Are we all "sons of God" in the manner you would have us believe (IOW, there before Genesis 1 so that we could watch the Lord as He "laid the foundations of the earth") ..

OK, let's just say you're right, then here's a question for you. If you were there, and I was there, and everybody else was there, how come Job wasn't there .. (see Job 38:4-7)

 

[St_Worm2]

If we were created from nothing, then everything we are is the result of what God made us to be. How could that harmonize with a Just God who judges us, and rewards or condemns us because He made us that way?

Hi MF, I don't believe we were created ex nihilo (did I say we were?). God created Adam from the dust of the earth, breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and he became a living soul (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45). Then He made Eve from Adam, and the rest of us are begotten.


--David

"Thus saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation
of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. Behold, I will make
Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about..."
Zechariah 12:1-2​

 

[Norah63]

Jerimiah, something about, 'before I formed you in your mothers womb I knew you.'
When we die we go back to the creator that sent us.

 

[texascowgirl]

hum well its is my understanding that spirit and soul are not the same thing so when we die we do not go back to our creator until the day of the Lord and we could be dead a thousand yrs or more before that day arrives. The reason for the verse you posted about knowing us before he created us in our mothers womb well I guess he did since he created us and he directs every aspect of our life from beginning to end. I do not believe we were with him because we came from dust. Dust you came and dust you shall return.

 

[Der Alte]

To know where we were before birth,one must understand that there was an age before the one we are currently in.....

God made all souls at the same time,it was during this time that satan,then know as Lucifer decided to rebell.....

For scriptual proof let's go to the Book of Job

Job 38 :: King James Version (KJV)

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy?

Just one question,for those who don't know where we were

Are you a son of God????

Will elaborate more later.......

This is Jewish poetry. In Jewish poetry they don't rhyme words but parallel ideas and thoughts. Here is your out-of-context proof text in its proper context.

Nothing is this passage refers to living, sentient beings.

Job 38:3-9
(3) Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
(4) Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
(5) Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
(6) Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
(7) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
(8) Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
(9) When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,​

Observe,

(5) laid the measures = stretched the line
(6) foundations = corner stone
(7) morning stars = sons of God
(8) sea/brake forth = issued out of the womb
(9) cloud the garment = thick darkness a swaddlingband

Keil and Delitszch Hebrew commentary.
Job 38:7 [SIZE="+1"]כֹּוכַב בֹּקֶר[/SIZE] is the morning star which in Isa_14:12 is called [SIZE="+1"]הֵילֵל[/SIZE] (as extra-bibl. [SIZE="+1"]נֹגַהּ[/SIZE]) from its dazzling light, which exceeds all other stars in brightness, and [SIZE="+1"]בֶּן־שַׁחַר[/SIZE], son of the dawn, because it swims in the dawn as though it were born from it.​

 

[St_Worm2]

Jerimiah, something about, 'before I formed you in your mothers womb I knew you.'

Yes, Jeremiah 1:5. God knew us (and ordained all the days of our lives), but we did not know Him (since we did not yet exist). Psalm 139 puts it nicely:

My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them." Psalm 139: 15-16
​

You continue:

When we die we go back to the creator that sent us."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - again, there is no indication of pre-existence here (if that's what you meant). Our "spirit" or "breath" (same word in Hebrew), which was given to us when God "breathed the breath of life" into us (Genesis 2:7) now returns to the One who gave it. Our lives continue even after we die physically ..

--David

"I am God, and there is no one like Me.
I make known the end from the beginning,
and from ancient times, what is still to come."
Isaiah 46:9-10​

 

[Norah63]

Each must decide what they are. Spirit, soul, flesh?
Then they can receive where they have been, an where they are headed.
This poll has a few diffrent views.

 

[St_Worm2]

Each must decide what they are. Spirit, soul, flesh? Then they can receive where they have been, an where they are headed.

Hi Norah, I'm not following you .. Would you explain what you mean a bit further.

Thanks ..

 

[Norah63]

How did God 'know' us if we did not exist? Knowing is two way as I believe.
And yes I read your verses, very good. I understand how you believe.

 

[St_Worm2]

How did God 'know' us if we did not exist? Knowing is two way as I believe.
And yes I read your verses, very good. I understand how you believe.

Hi Norah, God knows us before we exist because He's, well, God, and He foreordains every moment of every day of our lives before any of them happen (see Isaiah 46 and Psalm 139 above). Remember that He is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, IOW, there never was, nor will there ever be, a "maverick molecule" in the universe that is outside of His control or understanding (or He's not God).

As far as what I believe, that's really not important. What's important is the fact that this is what is taught in the Bible and, as a result, this is what orthodox Christianity tells us is true as well.

Yours and His,
David

 

[n2thelight]

St worm2

OK, let's just say you're right, then here's a question for you. If you were there, and I was there, and everybody else was there, how come Job wasn't there .. (see Job 38:4-7)

Job was there,we just don't remember that time.........

I was putting three-year-old Johnny to bed when he asked for a bedtime story. For the past few weeks, I had been telling him of the adventures of his great-great-grandfather: a colonizer, a soldier, a community leader. As I started another story, Johnny stopped me and said, "No, tell me of Grandpa Robert." I was surprised. This was my grandpa. I had not told stories of him, and I could not imagine where he had heard his name. He had died before I had even married. "How do you know about Grandpa Robert?" I asked. "Well, Momma," he said with reverence, "he's the one who brought me to earth."

Coming from the Light by Sarah Hinze:

Please don't take this the wrong way,but where was Christ before He was born of woman?

 

[n2thelight]

As I stated earlier,one must understand the 3 earth and Heaven ages,to get a grasp of where we were before birth...With this knowledge one would also see that we were never meant to be made flesh...

satans rebellion is the reason why we are now in flesh bodies,also the reason God destroyed that first earth age.....

In no way is this indicating reincarnation only that we continue to exist. In the first earth age as a spirit soul, in the second earth age as a flesh soul and in the third earth age as a spirit soul once more.

How do you think one becomes an Elect,just because?No!it's because of what we did in that first earth age.....

Let's look at Jeremiah

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

God foreknew Jeremiah, and knew that he was qualified to do the task that Jeremiah is about to be commissioned to do. Jeremiah had earned the right to fulfill that position, even in the first earth age.

In Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else." God did not create the earth void, but He created it to be inhabited. He did not create it "tohu va bohu"

Satan rebelled, and one third of the souls followed him in that rebellion, and God brought a close to that first earth age, and brought about man himself in this earth age of the flesh. Each soul now comes from God, and enters the embryo in the womb, and is born innocent of that first earth age. This flesh body is formed in the womb from the elements of the earth that the mother consumes from food she eats and it is developed into its final form at birth. In the flesh body, man (woman) then has the free will to descide for itself whether it would love God or Satan.

Man's body is made up from the clay of the earth, and upon death that physical body will decay right back into those elements that it came from. In the mother's womb, there is a clay vessel, that is made from the elements that came from the clay of the soul. Even in the meat we eat, comes from the greens that the animal ate that formed it's body. The body is an earthen vessel, but it is God that places the soul, the inner being into the child, and that is how God knew Jeremiah before Jeremiah was even placed in the womb of his mother.

God said that he could trust Jeremiah, and I know that Jeremiah will follow me even in the flesh, and because of this Jeremiah is the one that I will place in the flesh in the embryo of the wife of Hilkiah.

 

[Evergreen48]

Please don't take this the wrong way,but where was Christ before He was born of woman?

Christ was with God before he was born of woman, but he was/is God's ONLY begotten Son. Therein lies the reason why Jesus was with God before he was born of mankind (woman), and the rest of us were not. That God formed Jesus' earthly body in the womb of his mother without the natural contribution of an earthly father does not speak to Jesus' begetting of God.

I believe Moses explained the begetting of Jesus in the following manner:

Gen 1:3. "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. "

And whatever more there was to the begetting of Jesus our finite minds would never be able to comprehend.

 

[n2thelight]

No let's go to Ephesians

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

Have you ever wondered why you do the things that you do, at times. It's just like you have a destiny. You have always felt their is more to life, and this world, then what you have been taught. Paul addresses this in Romans 8:27. In verse twenty six it says that there are times in your life when the Holy Spirit makes intercession for you because you don't even know what to pray for.

"And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 These saints are "the set-aside ones", or "the chosen". God has a overall plan, and a purpose in that plan just for you. That purpose is to bring back His children to Him; after that overthrow, and in this earth age.

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.

We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.

"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

Certain of God's children stood against Satan in the first earth age, and those that did stand, and did not follow Satan; God judged [justified], and He "chose" them then to be used in His eternal plan. Through God's perfect plan, God "predestined", and "ordained" each of them to His purpose to be used in this flesh age. Each of these will also be used in the Millennium age as priests, or called the "Zadok".

When you become a Christian, and God has given you a working over, He is trying to wake you up. God is calling out a people, His people, the "Elect-chosen, and predestined" to stand against the Antichrist [Satan] in this final generation.

ephesians1

I know it's difficult for some to understand this,ask yourself,why God intervene in Pauls life on that road to damascus

 

[n2thelight]

Christ was with God before he was born of woman, but he was/is God's ONLY begotten Son. Therein lies the reason why Jesus was with God before he was born of mankind (woman), and the rest of us were not. That God formed Jesus' earthly body in the womb of his mother without the natural contribution of an earthly father does not speak to Jesus' begetting of God.

I believe Moses explained the begetting of Jesus in the following manner:

Gen 1:3. "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. "

And whatever more there was to the begetting of Jesus our finite minds would never be able to comprehend.

I asked that to say,Christ didn't ask us to do anything He Himself would not,including being born of woman,thus being made flesh.......