Before Birth

[A New Dawn]

The idea that God chose some to have a home in heaven one day while letting others perish is not biblical. [/B]

Actually, it is Biblical. Read John 6 and Romans 8. God did select people for Jesus to save, and none, save those whom God gives to Jesus to save, will be saved.

But this is partially off-topic. We can return to the topic.

 

[A New Dawn]

Yes it did,that's the whole point,Im trying to get people to see,and that is,we were there......

I mean,satan turns evil,and instead of God destroying him and his follower's right then and there,He decides to make man,with satan as his tempter,come on now,what kind of God do you think we serve?

Weren't you going to post some scripture to show that? So far, we only have your word for it.

I would like to add that God and the angels were around for an eternity before we were created. If we were there, where were we, because the Bible doesn't mention us in the heavenlies, it only mentions God and the angels?

 

[joneysd]

I don't believe we were with God before and i do not believe we become gods either.

 

[Evergreen48]

Actually, it is Biblical. Read John 6 and Romans 8. God did select people for Jesus to save, and none, save those whom God gives to Jesus to save, will be saved.

But this is partially off-topic. We can return to the topic.

Since when are Moderators, Administrators or what ever the position is, allowed to enter into the discussion, present their point of view, and then promptly close that particular line of commentary at what seems to be their own own personal discretion, saying, "off topic" ? ? ? That seems a bit off balance to me. Just sayin' . . . . . But anyway, regarding John 6 & Rom. 8, have you ever heard of "context" ?

 

[A New Dawn]

Since when are Moderators, Administrators or what ever the position is, allowed to enter into the discussion, present their point of view, and then promptly close that particular line of commentary at what seems to be their own own personal discretion, saying, "off topic" ? ? ? That seems a bit off balance to me. Just sayin' . . . . . But anyway, regarding John 6 & Rom. 8, have you ever heard of "context" ?

I am just saying that this particular discussion point is not on topic. You can discuss it all you want, but perhaps it might be better for it to have it's own thread since it is off topic. Some people like to have their threads remain on topic.

And, yes, I know all about context, that is why I chose to bring those verses into it.

 

[Phantasman]

It doesn't surprise me that in an Unorthodox forum, an Orthodox idea prevails about the OP.

Jesus said, "Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return." -Thomas

Must have been omitted from the Beatitudes.

 

[Evergreen48]

I am just saying that this particular discussion point is not on topic. You can discuss it all you want, but perhaps it might be better for it to have it's own thread since it is off topic. Some people like to have their threads remain on topic.

And, yes, I know all about context, that is why I chose to bring those verses into it.

Then perhaps you made a mistake by trying to use it to make a point in this particular discussion? That being the case , you would have to void post #22 and give MF another answer. Unless of course, you would care to elaborate a little more on how the doctrine of "election and predestination" have the same contextual value as the doctrine of "preexistence with God".

(Oh how I love playing the "devil's advocate" role. he he he)

 

[A New Dawn]

Then perhaps you made a mistake by trying to use it to make a point in this particular discussion? That being the case , you would have to void post #22 and give MF another answer. Unless of course, you would care to elaborate a little more on how the doctrine of "election and predestination" have the same contextual value as the doctrine of "preexistence with God".

My point was that while the Bible does state that decisions and stuff regarding people happened "in the beginning", that doesn't mean that people were around for it. Besides, MormonFriend brought in the condemnation/salvation issue, not me, and then you decided to tell people that what I said wasn't Biblical, when it is. I was just clearing it up for that reason.

 

[A New Dawn]

It doesn't surprise me that in an Unorthodox forum, an Orthodox idea prevails about the OP.

Jesus said, "Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return." -Thomas

Must have been omitted from the Beatitudes.

Phantasman, did you read the Statement of Purpose for this forum?

Nicene Christians can not just run into a thread say you are not Christian and expect the protection of the area. This is a place to illustrate why we hold the theology in error and Unorthodox. It is to be done in love and charity and yes ... sometimes directly and forcefully. But not as free shots at our fellow CF members.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7758825/

 

[Phantasman]

Phantasman, did you read the Statement of Purpose for this forum?
http://www.christianforums.com/t7758825/

So, where did I go wrong? Expressing a view?

I did not say anyone wasn't Christian. I did point out an "Unorthodox" non Nicene scripture that says why I voted yes. And made a comment on the differences between two thought processes.

 

[A New Dawn]

So, where did I go wrong? Expressing a view?

I did not say anyone wasn't Christian. I did point out an "Unorthodox" non Nicene scripture that says why I voted yes. And made a comment on the differences between two thought processes.

No, you made it sound like we are wrong to express an orthodox view in this forum. This forum is for expressing orthodox views and explaining why they are orthodox.

 

[Norah63]

We each vote in the poll.
This topic thread somewhat points out the disconnect of the two points of belief.
Some may believe that 'knew' us, means that God had a knowledge of all things including us and how each would live, as in predestination, and that we were non existent at this knowing time.
In the Hebrew the meaning was really informative to me. It included, observe, comprehend, acquaintance, advise, appoint, instruct, regard. For me that says that it is a two way knowing, we 'knew' as well.
Always from the perspective that it is God's plan to want fellowship with His creation.
He loves us from the beginning and wants the same for and from us. It does not mean that we are equal in power or position as the creator is always our creator and we are the means by which He shows his creation. The free will of our lives is our duty, as I see it. We can serve our God our creator or we can serve our selves, or our fellowman or the enemy of all mankind.
(this is from the Jeremiah verse I posted about earlier 1:4)

 

[n2thelight]

We each vote in the poll.
This topic thread somewhat points out the disconnect of the two points of belief.
Some may believe that 'knew' us, means that God had a knowledge of all things including us and how each would live, as in predestination, and that we were non existent at this knowing time.
In the Hebrew the meaning was really informative to me. It included, observe, comprehend, acquaintance, advise, appoint, instruct, regard. For me that says that it is a two way knowing, we 'knew' as well.
Always from the perspective that it is God's plan to want fellowship with His creation.
He loves us from the beginning and wants the same for and from us. It does not mean that we are equal in power or position as the creator is always our creator and we are the means by which He shows his creation. The free will of our lives is our duty, as I see it. We can serve our God our creator or we can serve our selves, or our fellowman or the enemy of all mankind.
(this is from the Jeremiah verse I posted about earlier 1:4)

Well said..........

 

[n2thelight]

Weren't you going to post some scripture to show that? So far, we only have your word for it.

I would like to add that God and the angels were around for an eternity before we were created. If we were there, where were we, because the Bible doesn't mention us in the heavenlies, it only mentions God and the angels?

I gave plenty of scripture's,most people just can't see it,as they already have their preconceived ideas...As Nora63 stated,God knew us,not just because He knows everything,but rather because we were there...

Take the verse,Jacob I loved,Easu I hated,I mean seriously,you never asked yourself why he hated Easu?Do you just assume that He knew He would hate Him?That's crazy....

Look at the below verse below


John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

Now most read this verse and think it's only talking about Christ,yet the verse says even Christ...

Again the verses in scripture that Ive provided,proves without a doubt,where we were before birth....

 

[n2thelight]

Foundation of the World
[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]This Is Appendix 146 From The Companion Bible. [/FONT]
[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman] To arrive at the true meaning of this expression, we must note that there are two words translated "foundation" in the New Testament: (1) themelios, and (2) katabole.
The Noun, themelios, occurs in Luke 6:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]48-49[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman], 14:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]29[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman], Acts 16:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]26[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman], Romans 15:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]20[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman], [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]Corinthians 3:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]l0-12[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman], Ephesians 2:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]20[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman], [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/FONT]Timothy 6:19, 2Timothy 2:19, Hebrews 6:1, 11:10, Revelation 21:14,19. It is never used of the world (kosmos) or the earth (ge). The corresponding Verb (themelioo) occurs in Matthew 7:25, Luke 6:48, Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 1:10 and 1Peter 5:10. The verb is only once used of the earth (ge). Hebrews 1:10.

A comparison of all these passages will show that these are proper and regular terms for the English words "to found", and "foundation".
The Noun, katabole, occurs in Matthew 13:35, 25:34, Luke 11:50, John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, Hebrews 4:3, 9:26 , 11:11, 1Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8, 17:8 and the corresponding Verb (kataballo) occurs in 2Corinthians 4:9, Hebrews 6:1 and Revelation 12:10.
A comparison of all these passages (especially 2Corinthians 4:9 and Revelation 12:10) will show that kataballo and katabole are not the proper terms for founding and foundation, but the correct meaning is casting down, or overthrow.

Consistency, therefore, calls for the same translation in Hebrews 6:1, where, instead of "not laying again", the rendering should be "not casting down". That is to say, the foundation already laid, of repentance, etc., was not to be cast down or overthrown, but was to be left and progress made unto the perfection.
Accordingly, the Noun katabole, derived from, and cognate with the Verb, ought to be translated "disruption", or "ruin".

The remarkable thing is that in all occurrences (except Hebrews 11:11) the word is connected with "the world" (Greek kosmos. Appendix 129.1), and therefore the expression should be rendered "the disruption (or ruin) of the world", clearly referring to the condition indicated in Genesis 1:2, and described in 2Peter 3:5-6. For the earth was not created tohu (Isaiah 45:18http://www.therain.org/appendixes/isa4518.html) but became so, as stated in the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2 and confirmed by 2Peter 3:6, where "the world that then was by the word of God" (Genesis 1:1http://www.therain.org/appendixes/isa4518.html#g12), perished and "the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word" were created (Genesis 2:4), and are "kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment" (2Peter 3:7) which shall usher in the "new heavens and the new earth" of 2Peter 3:13.
"The disruption of the world" is an event forming a great dividing line in the dispensations of the ages. In Genesis 1:1 we have the founding of the world (Hebrews 1:10 = themelioo), but in Genesis 1:2 we have its overthrow.

This is confirmed by a further remarkable fact, that the phrase, which occurs ten times, is associated with the Preposition apo = from (Appendix 104. iv) seven times, and with pro = before (Appendix 104. xiv) three times. The former refers to the kingdom, and is connected with the "counsels" of God; the latter refers to the Mystery (or Secret; See Appendix 193) and is connected with the "purpose" of God (see John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, 1Peter 1:20). Ample New Testament testimony is thus given to the profoundly significant fact recorded in Genesis 1:2, that "the earth became tohu and bohu (i.e. waste end desolate); and darkness was on the face of the deep", before the creation of "the heavens and the earth which are now" (2Peter 3:7).

 

[A New Dawn]

I gave plenty of scripture's,most people just can't see it,as they already have their preconceived ideas...As Nora63 stated,God knew us,not just because He knows everything,but rather because we were there...

Take the verse,Jacob I loved,Easu I hated,I mean seriously,you never asked yourself why he hated Easu?Do you just assume that He knew He would hate Him?That's crazy....

Look at the below verse below


John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

Now most read this verse and think it's only talking about Christ,yet the verse says even Christ...

Again the verses in scripture that Ive provided,proves without a doubt,where we were before birth....

Sorry, I try not to read the Bible with preconceived ideas, and I can say that that verse says nothing about anyone but Christ.

But as to God knowing us, it has to do with God being omniscient and omnipresent. God transcends time so He is everywhere and everywhen at the same time. That is how God can know us even before we were born, because he can see all of the timestream at once.

 

[Phantasman]

No, you made it sound like we are wrong to express an orthodox view in this forum. This forum is for expressing orthodox views and explaining why they are orthodox.

On the contrary:

UT is a forum for all discussion of unorthodox theology and fellowship.(From your sticky)

I could have easily said "I was surprised" at the voting and probably not gotten flagged. I meant no disrespect, and apologize to anyone who may have been offended by my comparison.

 

[Albion]

From whom do you think we received our "standards of fair play"?

Christianity, Feudalism, The Enlightenment, the French and American Revolutions, social democracy, free market economic theory, and various socialist movements, among others.

We may think that our standards of judicial impartiality, due process, egalitarianism, and the like define God, but they don't. They describe OUR society's history and culture. The minute anyone assigns our society's legal and philosophical values to God and begins to think that God has to conform to them (or else he's "unfair"), that person has made a fundamental mistake.

 

[RDKirk]

Christianity, Feudalism, The Enlightenment, the French and American Revolutions, social democracy, free market economic theory, and various socialist movements, among others.

We may think that our standards of judicial impartiality, due process, egalitarianism, and the like define God, but they don't. They describe OUR society's history and culture. The minute anyone assigns our society's legal and philosophical values to God and begins to think that God has to conform to them (or else he's "unfair"), that person has made a fundamental mistake.

Gotta agree with this.

 

[n2thelight]

Sorry, I try not to read the Bible with preconceived ideas, and I can say that that verse says nothing about anyone but Christ.

But as to God knowing us, it has to do with God being omniscient and omnipresent. God transcends time so He is everywhere and everywhen at the same time. That is how God can know us even before we were born, because he can see all of the timestream at once.

So why did God hate Esau?Just because?