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Baptism? Necessary for Salvation?

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Benedicta00

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genez said:
Would Jesus lie to us?

"Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" Matthew 4:4 niv

God esteems His Word above all that is!

"I will worship toward Your holy temple and praise Your name for Your loving-kindness and for Your truth and faithfulness; for You have exalted above all else Your name and Your word and You have magnified Your Word above all Your name! " Psalm 138:21 Amplified Trans

We are nothing without knowing the Word correctly! Nothing!

"'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

Its knowing the Word correctly that saves us from stupidity and evil all around us! False doctrine equals a false life!

"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers." 1 Timothy 4:16 niv


Certain sentimental types cling to the traditions of men like a small child clings to a security blanket. They never grow up spritually. They stomp their feet and whine when they can not get their way. Religion is a root of evil. Jesus did not come to form another religion. He came to establish a way for relationship with the Father. Not the traditions of men!

"They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." Mark 7:7-8 niv

Traditions of men are teachings that distort or add to the Word of God, telling men things that the Word never speaks of. Yet, these will use the Word to justify the traditions by distorting it.

Without correctly knowing Scripture we are nothings in God's sight. Nothings that stick with church dogma, and deny God the following of His Word.

Grace in truth, GeneZ
No Jesus does not lie to us. Tradition is every bit God’s word, and the bible is the written down part of that. Jesus left us the deposit of faith before there ever was a word penned.

You are stating such a straw and a false premise by pitting one against the other. NO ONE is denying the bible- the written word as God’s word but you know it and everyone else does too, that the bible itself does not say that God’s word is limited to the written words in the bible only. If it does then please post the verse because in none of these verse have you posted anything remotely coming close to saying the we are to use only the bible which is the written word as our sole source of truth and that God’s word is limited only to the bible.

I think you are assuming the "word" is limited to the written word only when the bible does not even tell us that it is. The word of God is what Jesus taught to the apostles and what the apostle handed down to us and so fourth. The bible is the written down part of that "word" that Christ left with His Church. There is no dispute there.
 
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GenemZ

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Shelb5 said:
No Jesus does not lie to us. Tradition is every bit God’s word, and the bible is the written down part of that. Jesus left us the deposit of faith before there ever was a word penned.

Faith can only come from God's Word!

" Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." Romans 10:17 niv

When tradition contradicts God's Word, God's Word wins! No questions asked. But you? You begin to make up things about faith, now? Not even knowing what faith is? The deposit of faith we receive is at salvation. Its the Truth about the Saving Work of Christ. That comes from the Word. And, that is our deposit of faith.

You are stating such a straw and a false premise by pitting one against the other. NO ONE is denying the bible- the written word as God’s word but you know it and everyone else does too, that the bible itself does not say that God’s word is limited to the written words in the bible only.

Everything must agree with God's Word. That is called, "application of Truth." If it does not line up with God's Word, then what was taught can not be truth (that is, if its teaching concerning our faith, not on how to repair a car). Yet, even in repairing a car, we are taught about honesty and integrity in what we do as onto the Lord, and not to men.

If it does then please post the verse because in none of these verse have you posted anything remotely coming close to saying the we are to use only the bible which is the written word as our sole source of truth and that God’s word is limited only to the bible.

Then I suggest you learn to read English better than you have been. Jesus said that we are to live by every Word of God.

I think you are assuming the "word" is limited to the written word only when the bible does not even tell us that it is.

If it is not limited to the written Word, then where are you to get it from? If you can get it besides the written Word, then we might as well chuck our Bibles.

"Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another." 1 Corinthians 4:6 niv

That is why some take pride in the Pope over others. "Ex Cathedra" He can quite often times go beyond what is written when its convenient to do so. And, it is accepted by the Biblically ignorant as being the Word of God! That is exactly how the traditions of men is formed!

The word of God is what Jesus taught to the apostles and what the apostle handed down to us and so fourth. The bible is the written down part of that "word" that Christ left with His Church. There is no dispute there.

Its not "part of the Word." There is dispute. Do not go beyond what is written!

"Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another." 1 Corinthians 4:6 niv

Grace and truth... and defiance against the lie!

GeneZ
 
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Benedicta00

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genez said:
Faith can only come from God's Word!

I agree, but redemption don't. And Tradition is God’s word. It is what Jesus taught to the apostles and what the apostles taught to us util the death of the last apostle, since then all public revelation is closed. Do you disagree that Christ taught the apostles and sent them out to teach us, not to write anything down but to TEACH?

I am getting again to the point of repeating myself. you are using a strawman with me again, where have I said anything different?? I have not, you are not understanding that Tradition is God's word, it is what Jesus taught by word of mouth to th apostles, the bible is what someone inspired by God wrote down at some point of that.


When tradition contradicts God's Word, God's Word wins! No questions asked. But you? You begin to make up things about faith, now? Not even knowing what faith is? The deposit of faith we receive is at salvation. Its the Truth about the Saving Work of Christ. That comes from the Word. And, that is our deposit of faith.

Tradition is God's word so explain to me how exactly it contradicts God's word? If you are trying to say that the Catholic Church contradicts scripture then I challenge you- it doesn't and I can show you that it does not.



Everything must agree with God's Word. That is called, "application of Truth." If it does not line up with God's Word, then what was taught can not be truth (that is, if its teaching concerning our faith, not on how to repair a car). Yet, even in repairing a car, we are taught about honesty and integrity in what we do as onto the Lord, and not to men.

Tradition does line up with God's word, it is God’s word so how can that be? The written down part is what we call the written down part of God’s word aka Tradition.


Then I suggest you learn to read English better than you have been. Jesus said that we are to live by every Word of God.

And we do... another straw... What Jesus taught to us is Tradition, it is our deposit of faith and the bible is the written down part of that. It is not pitted against that, it includes that, it is from Tradition the bible was written.


If it is not limited to the written Word, then where are you to get it from? If you can get it besides the written Word, then we might as well chuck our Bibles.

I get it from Jesus Christ. Where do you even think your bible came from? The Catholic Church in the 3 century is who gave you the canon... they decided based on the teachings of Jesus Christ that He left with us which writings were indeed inspired and therefor God's word and which one where not. Please tell me you knew that and you did not think it just dropped from the sky?

"Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another." 1 Corinthians 4:6 niv

And what was written at that time? What written work was Paul referring to?

That is why some take pride in the Pope over others. "Ex Cathedra" He can quite often times go beyond what is written when its convenient to do so. And, it is accepted by the Biblically ignorant as being the Word of God! That is exactly how the traditions of men is formed!

Wrong and insulting. First Tradition is not what ever the Pope says, Tradition is what Jesus taught the apostles and the Pope teaches that to us, that is why he can not be mistaken, because he is teachings us God’s word.

On who's authority do you self interpret God’s word? You believe you are no different from the Pope… you read God’s[written down] word and interpret it. The Pope teaches us what was already taught, he does not self interpret- there is the difference.

And would you please cite for me one teaching of the Catholic Church that disagrees with scripture? Everything that the Church teaches is found in scripture whether found explicity or implicit and nothing ever has or will contradict the written word- that’s for sure.

Its not "part of the Word." There is dispute. Do not go beyond what is written!

Okay, fine, we can not go beyond what was written at the time Paul said that, that means all the gospels, ditch em, all the other letters that came after that- ditch em, Revelations, ditch it and stick with the OT. Unless of course Paul knew all the books that would be written in the future and he knew that his letters- even the ones to come would become canon and he wasn’t just writing to a specific group, telling only THEM not to go beyond what Paul was writing to them at that time?

Also what about the false gospels that were written, if what is written is the only thing God inspired, how come there was uninspired writings at that time? And how was one to know what was inspired and what wasn’t? What did they have to go by?

"Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another." 1 Corinthians 4:6 niv

Grace and truth... and defiance against the lie!

GeneZ

So are you suggesting this was Paul speaking against the papacy in this verse? Odd… since Peter was the Pope at the time. Was Paul speaking against Peter?
 
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GenemZ

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I said...
Quote:
Originally Posted by: genez
Faith can only come from God's Word!


Shelb5 said:
I agree, but redemption don't.

:scratch: Redemption doesn't come by faith? Without faith, you could not know you have been redeemed. You make no sense to me.


And Tradition is God’s word. It is what Jesus taught to the apostles and what the apostles taught to us util the death of the last apostle, since then all public revelation is closed. Do you disagree that Christ taught the apostles and sent them out to teach us, not to write anything down but to TEACH?

What Jesus taught was straight from the Father. Jesus was the Word made flesh. If you think that's simply the same thing as men's traditions? Well, I have a bridge to sell you. Do you ever feel that you might be wrong? If you don't, you're wrong about not being wrong. ;)

I am getting again to the point of repeating myself. you are using a strawman with me again, where have I said anything different??

You keep using a "Strawman," strawman! You create strawmen where they do not exist, as a strawman! You are a classic!


I have not, you are not understanding that Tradition is God's word, it is what Jesus taught by word of mouth to th apostles, the bible is what someone inspired by God wrote down at some point of that.

Read your Bible often? Try reading John 1:14!

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

What ever Jesus passed down was Scripture! Not simply tradition!


Tradition is God's word so explain to me how exactly it contradicts God's word? If you are trying to say that the Catholic Church contradicts scripture then I challenge you- it doesn't and I can show you that it does not.

Where does Scripture prescribe Rosary? Confessing to a so called priest, when in the Church age we are all our own priest? Are your priests Cohayn, from the Tribe of Levites? If not, they are not Scriptural to be a priest over other believers. And, I was brought up a Jew! So watch out when trying to get around that one!

Tradition does line up with God's word, it is God’s word so how can that be? The written down part is what we call the written down part of God’s word aka Tradition.

Peter was sent to the Jews. Paul was sent to the Gentiles. Yet, your church makes Peter the first pope! Nonsense! Peter was sent to the Jews! He may have visited parts of Rome, but he was never stationed in Rome. If you were to get the error straight, at least make Paul the first pope!


And we do... another straw... What Jesus taught to us is Tradition, it is our deposit of faith and the bible is the written down part of that. It is not pitted against that, it includes that, it is from Tradition the bible was written.

Jeus taught us the Word! He revealed the Word in action! How dull can you be?

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 niv

That was not mere tradition that Jesus was giving. The only tradition he gave was the Eucharist!

I get it from Jesus Christ. Where do you even think your bible came from? The Catholic Church in the 3 century is who gave you the canon... they decided based on the teachings of Jesus Christ that He left with us which writings were indeed inspired and therefor God's word and which one where not. Please tell me you knew that and you did not think it just dropped from the sky?

Too bad this is not the third century. At one time the Catholic Church was a good and doctrinal church. But it became corrupted. So much so, that it tried to murder Martin Luther when he decided we must get back to what the Word teaches, and not the evil traditions that saturated the Catholic church in his day. Yes, they wanted to murder him for making the Word of God the issue. Some chuch it had become. I'll say.

I said....
Its not "part of the Word." There is dispute. Do not go beyond what is written!


Okay, fine, we can not go beyond what was written at the time Paul said that, that means all the gospels, ditch em, all the other letters that came after that- ditch em, Revelations, ditch it and stick with the OT. Unless of course Paul knew all the books that would be written in the future and he knew that his letters- even the ones to come would become canon and he wasn’t just writing to a specific group, telling only THEM not to go beyond what Paul was writing to them at that time?

Paul knew that the canon of Scripture was not yet completed.


Okay, fine, we can not go beyond what was written at the time Paul said that, that means all the gospels, ditch em, all the other letters that came after that- ditch em, Revelations, ditch it and stick with the OT. Unless of course Paul knew all the books that would be written in the future and he knew that his letters- even the ones to come would become canon and he wasn’t just writing to a specific group, telling only THEM not to go beyond what Paul was writing to them at that time?

I think you can get off with the insanity plea... :wave:

Also what about the false gospels that were written, if what is written is the only thing God inspired, how come there was uninspired writings at that time? And how was one to know what was inspired and what wasn’t? What did they have to go by?

And! You forgot Time Magazine! After all, its written!

So are you suggesting this was Paul speaking against the papacy in this verse? Odd… since Peter was the Pope at the time. Was Paul speaking against Peter?

Peter was sent to the Jews! Not the Gentiles? Was any pope named, Pope Irving? Pope Moshe? Pope Horowitz?

"For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles." Galatians 2:8 niv

So, the first Catholic Churches were made up of Jews? News to me.

No wonder they wanted to murder Martin Luther for having a Bible printed for the people to read. If enough read it, they would stop being Catholics. I know ex Catholics who that happened to. They read the bible, and then realized they were in the wrong place. Just like this Jew did!

Grace in peace, GeneZ
 
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Shelb5 said:
Everything you posted actually supports water baptism as regenerational…

Read them in this light, one is redeemed by baptismal graces given by God to them through these means, in which God gave us. Then- because we are justified now, we can be saved as we accept Christ and persevere to the end in faith. It is faith that saves and no man can come to God but by Jesus and no man can come to be born again but by the grace of God. We are saved by grace alone.
how do you get water baptiism from death and resurrection?

that putting something there that is not!
 
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Benedicta00

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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
how do you get water baptiism from death and resurrection?

that putting something there that is not!
Oh brother...

Read my other 50 posts in this thread, I have already more than once shown the biblical connection that water baptism IS THE mystery of the cross.

It is mystical; it is a outward sign that points to a mystical reality thattakes place in the spiritual realm. That is what ALL sacraments are and they all have thoer center in the cross because the cross is our salvation. They are outward signs instituted by Christ (you can find Him doing so in the bible) as a means in order to give His grace.

It's like we are here, material (along with spiritual) beings we have to transcend this materialism with the eyes of faith on order for our spirits to connect with God because the fall cut us off from that direct spiritual connection)- so now God ordains that man who is here, and God who is there is bridge by Christ and through the outward signs which is for the benefit of material beings- not Him, He connects us to His grace- mystically. The cross is the fountain from where all of God’s graces flow. It takes faith in order to see and experience what our sense can not. The “ritual” is just the outside sign of what is taking place in the heavens.

That is what sacraments are, channels of grace and baptism is the sacrament where we mystically are buried with Christ and we mystically rise with him a new creation.
 
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SPALATIN

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genez said:
I said...
Where does Scripture prescribe Rosary? Confessing to a so called priest, when in the Church age we are all our own priest? Are your priests Cohayn, from the Tribe of Levites? If not, they are not Scriptural to be a priest over other believers. And, I was brought up a Jew! So watch out when trying to get around that one!

Peter was sent to the Jews. Paul was sent to the Gentiles. Yet, your church makes Peter the first pope! Nonsense! Peter was sent to the Jews! He may have visited parts of Rome, but he was never stationed in Rome. If you were to get the error straight, at least make Paul the first pope!

Grace in peace, GeneZ
I always wondered why they didn't consider Paul the first Pope. For that matter Peter probably would have cringed at the title and declined as it wouldn't have made sense considering his personal experience with the Lord.


While not a Catholic I know why they call Peter the first Pope. He was the first one to declare among the disciples that Jesus was the Messiah and Christ said to him that upon this confession I will give you the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven in which the gates of Hell will not Prevail. Peter did spend time in Rome preaching to the Gentiles as well as the Jews who followed Christ. Peter died in Rome on an upside down Cross. This is but some of the main evidence they use to make him the first Bishop of Rome.

***********************************************************

As for Confession. 1 John 1:8-9 says If we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us, but if we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

In the Lutheran Church we also confess our sins. Most often it is part of the liturgy up which the congregation says in unison:

I a poor miserable sinner confess unto thee all my sins and iniquities with which I have ever offended thee and justly deservery thy temporal and eternal punishment, but I am heartily sorry for them and sincerely repent of them and I pray thee of they boundless mercy to the end that by thy Grace I may come to everlasting life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

The Pastor says in return: Upon this your confession, I as a called and ordained servant of the word announce the Grace of God unto you and in his stead and by his command I forgive you all your sins.

We are to confess his name and confess that we are sinners and while we deserve eternal hellfire for our sinful actions we humbly ask his forgiveness. The pastor does not on his own forgive us but in the place of Christ and by the command he gave to the disciples we hear absolution for our misdeeds so that we can continue with the help of the spirit.

Though if one wanted to he could confess to his Pastor in private specific sins but most often we confess together as a congregation that we are sinful and we receive his forgiveness.
 
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GenemZ

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SLStrohkirch said:
I always wondered why they didn't consider Paul the first Pope. For that matter Peter probably would have cringed at the title and declined as it wouldn't have made sense considering his personal experience with the Lord.


And Peter wrote two tiny epistles in broken Greek, and Paul wrote almost all the epistles in eloquent Greek.


While not a Catholic I know why they call Peter the first Pope.

And, I know why they think Mary was sinless perfection, too. But, anyone with one year of seminary outside of their propaganda camp can plainly see that someone has created a religion out of snippets from the Bible. The fact that they have priests called "father" should make anyone run for the hills after reading their Gospels, but they stay their as loyal sheep being led to the slaughter of false dogmas. Lent. Rosary. Praying to the saints. Weird!

"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven." Matthew 23:8 -9 niv

I was born a Jew. I see a great parallel between Catholics and Jews, as far as the approach to God. Ritual and tradition. No living experience with God. It all depends on the authorities for one's so called relationship to God.

He was the first one to declare among the disciples that Jesus was the Messiah and Christ said to him that upon this confession I will give you the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven in which the gates of Hell will not Prevail.
.

So what? Peter was used only to write a tiny part of the NT. Paul was used of God to reveal the mystery of the Church. Peter even had a hard time understanding certain things Paul wrote, for Paul had great depth and understanding of knowledge. Peter was an impulsive person that Christ needed to reign in. Paul was a spiritual genius that many today do not even begin to understand, though anyone led of the Spirit is made able to by grace.

"He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16 niv

Paul was light years ahead of Peter in understanding the spiritual realities of the Church age. Peter was the Apostle to the Jews! The Catholic Church is a Gentile church!

Mary was not sinless as some Catholics try to claim!

Luke 1:46-47 niv


And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior."


If Mary was sinless, she would not need a Savior! Only sinners need a Savior!

Peter did spend time in Rome preaching to the Gentiles as well as the Jews who followed Christ.

And, Paul chewed him out from reverting back to his Jewish roots! Peter was withdrawing from the Gentiles out of fear of the legalistic Jews.

Galatians 2:11-13 niv

"When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray."

Peter died in Rome on an upside down Cross. This is but some of the main evidence they use to make him the first Bishop of Rome.

Paul died in Rome, too!

***********************************************************

As for Confession. 1 John 1:8-9 says If we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us, but if we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 niv

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

The confessing to one another in James had to do with fractions and friction between members of that church while they were going through corporate testing. Some were grumbling against one another. They were to confess to one another and to stop the anomosity, and make up with one another. It had nothing to do with confessing personal sins to one another. Its none of their business that soemone lusted for a woman down the street.

Personal sin confession is to God alone. You are your own priest!

What happens when we sin and will not be attending Church for a few days? Stay out of fellowship all that time? Since we are our own priest before God, we have been given the nauthority to confess (name/ acknowledge/ admit) our sins as we find and see them. Its to be instant recovery back into fellowship. No wasted time! What would happen if someone was on vacation and sinned? He would not be back in church for three weeks? He is in a country with no churches of his denomination? Spend his whole time out of fellowship? NO! 1 John 1:9 was intended for our personal priesthood! We have the right to name our own sins to God. And, its no one elses business what our sins may be! None of their business! We are accountable to God, not men!

In the Lutheran Church we also confess our sins. Most often it is part of the liturgy up which the congregation says in unison:

No good. We can sin at any time of the day. Its right after we see our sin that we confess it to God. We are all priests. In the OT economy only certain men were assigned to be priests. You had to go to them to confess your sin, and only with a sacrifice. Jesus has been sacrificed forever! We have the blood of Jesus always with us. We name our sins, then move on! None of this waiting for a certain time to confess. That keeps people locked out of fellowship with God. In other words, a trick of the devil!

I a poor miserable sinner confess unto thee all my sins and iniquities with which I have ever offended thee and justly deservery thy temporal and eternal punishment, but I am heartily sorry for them and sincerely repent of them and I pray thee of they boundless mercy to the end that by thy Grace I may come to everlasting life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

The Greek words in 1 John 1:9 does not require we feel sorry for our sins. It requires that we recognize them, accept the blood of Christ, and move on! Feeling sorry for our sins is a form of self punishment. There are Greek words to "feel sorry" but they do not appear in 1 John 1:9.

Jesus took the full brunt of all the punishment for sin on the cross. He did it all. If you want to feel sorry, that's your business, but is is never asked for by God. God wants us to become objective about our sins. Not subjective. The issue with God is no longer our sins. The issue is staying in fellowship and to be constantly growing in Christ. Not feeling sorry for sins is full acceptance that the saving work of Christ is complete and total. He paid for it all. Feeling sorry is like saying we could have done something in ourselves not to sin. That is a lie. We are sinners saved by grace. The more objective we become, the less guilt we feel. It would be like a diabetic feeling soory and apologizing everytime he needed to take insulin.
The Pastor says in return: Upon this your confession, I as a called and ordained servant of the word announce the Grace of God unto you and in his stead and by his command I forgive you all your sins.

He has no right to do that. He is getting in the way of God. He is trying to get in the middle. Who does he confess his sins to? He is a sinner. ;)

We are to confess his name and confess that we are sinners and while we deserve eternal hellfire for our sinful actions we humbly ask his forgiveness. The pastor does not on his own forgive us but in the place of Christ and by the command he gave to the disciples we hear absolution for our misdeeds so that we can continue with the help of the spirit.

Distortion. Did Luther teach this himself? Or, was this a hold over from the Catholic days?

Though if one wanted to he could confess to his Pastor in private specific sins but most often we confess together as a congregation that we are sinful and we receive his forgiveness.

You are your own priest! We no longer confess to other people. Its YOUR relationship with God. We do not need a chaperone in confessing our sins. We are now Sons of God in Christ. No longer little children.

1 Peter 2:5 niv

"you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

This notion of confessing before another comes from the Jewish law. That's when there were specialized priests who offered sacrifices for named sins. Now, we offer our own spiritual sacrifices by confessing to God. We are now our own priest!

Grace in peace, GeneZ
 
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Qoheleth

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Okay Ill butt in.

About confessing sins, the early church members would confess their sins outloud and publicly to the fellowship. As this become prohibitive due to size, confessing to a Deacon or Bishop became a common practice. This is indeed part of our christian heritage and is documented.

So what does that mean today, well, some churches will tell you that it is necessary to confess to a priest, others make it an option, some not at all...


It had nothing to do with confessing personal sins to one another
Actually it did, early church history bears this out and there was no shame in the practice.

Of course, no one at any time believed that they were administering the forgiveness, only God would and could forgive

Scripture tells us to "confess our sins, one to another" James 5:16

Why do you suppose it says this???
 
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Qoheleth

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Is baptism necessary for salvation

The answer is a simple, "No." But you might ask, "If the answer is no, then why are there verses that say things like ‘. . .baptism that now saves you . . . ‘ (1 Pet. 3:21, NIV) and ‘ . . . Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins . . ." (Acts 2:38, NIV)? This is an honest question and it needs a competent answer. But, before I tackle this I need to lay a foundation of proper theology, then I'll address some of those verses that are commonly used to support the idea that baptism is necessary for salvation.
God Works Covenantally

First, you need to understand that God works covenantally. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties. The New Testament and Old Testaments are New and Old Covenants. The word "testament" comes from the Latin testamentum which means covenant. So, the Bible is a covenant document. If you don't understand covenant you cannot understand, in totality, the issue of baptism because baptism is a covenant sign.

If you don't think that God works covenantally then look at Heb 13:20 which says, "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep" (NIV). The Eternal Covenant is the covenant between the Father and the Son before the creation of the world, whereby the Father would give to the Son those whom the Father had chosen. That is why Jesus says things like, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away" (John 6:37, NIV). And, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day" (John 6:39, NIV). And, "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours" (John 17:9, NIV).

If you fail to understand that God works covenantally and that He uses signs as manifestations of his covenants (rainbow, circumcision, communion, etc.) then you will not be able to understand where baptism fits in God's covenant system.
Second, you need to know what baptism is. It is an outward representation of an inward reality. For example, it represents the reality of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul. That is why it is used in different ways. It is said to represent the death of the person (Rom. 6:3-5), the union of that person with Christ (Gal. 3:27), the cleansing of that person's sins (Acts 22:16), the identification with the one "baptized into" as when the Israelites were baptized into Moses (1 Cor. 10:2), and being united in one church (1 Cor. 12:13). Also, baptism is one of the signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace that was instituted by Jesus. It is in this sense a sacrament. A sacrament is a visible manifestation of something spoken. It is also said to be a visible sign of an inward grace. For example, the communion elements of bread and wine are called the sacrament of communion. When we take communion we are partaking of the sacrament.

The Covenant of Grace is the covenant between God and Man where God promises to Man eternal life. It is based upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the condition is faith in Jesus Christ. As the Communion Supper replaced Passover, baptism, in like manner, replaces circumcision. "They represent the same spiritual blessings that were symbolized by circumcision and Passover in the old dispensation" (Berkhoff, Lewis, Systematic Theology, 1988, p. 620.).

Circumcision was the initiatory rite into the Abrahamic covenant; it did not save. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties and that is exactly what the Abrahamic covenant was. God said to Abraham, "I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you" (Genesis 17:7, NIV). God later instructed Abraham to circumcise not only every adult male, but also 8 day old male infants as a sign of the covenant (Gen. 17:9-13). If the children were not circumcised, they were not considered to be under the promissory Abrahamic covenant. This is why Moses' wife circumcised her son and threw the foreskin at Moses' feet. (Ex. 4:24-25). She knew the importance of the covenant between God and her children. But at the same time we must understand that circumcision did not guarantee salvation to all who received it. It was a rite meant only for the people of God, who were born into the family of God (who were then the Jews).
An important question here is how is it possible for an infant to be entered into a covenant with God. There could be a lot of answers given but the point remains: it was done; infants were entered into a covenant relationship with God -- through their parents.
In the New Testament, circumcision is mentioned many times. But with respect to this topic it is specifically mentioned in Col. 2:11-12: "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead" (NIV). In these verses, baptism and circumcision are related. Baptism replaces the Old Testament circumcision because 1) there was a New Covenant in the communion supper (Luke 22:20), and 2) in circumcision there was the shedding of blood but in baptism no blood is shed. This is because the blood of Christ has been shed.

If you understand that baptism is a covenant sign, then you can see that it is a representation of the reality of Christ circumcising our hearts (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11-12). It is our outward proclamation of the inward spiritual blessing of regeneration. It comes after faith which is a gift of God (Rom. 12:3) and the work of God (John 6:28).
Third, the Bible says that it is the gospel that saves. "By this gospel you are saved..." (1 Cor. 15:2). Also, Rom. 1:16 says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."


What is the Gospel?

It is clearly the gospel that saves us. But what exactly is the gospel? That too is revealed to us in the Bible. It is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." The gospel is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins. Baptism is not mentioned here.

Paul said that he came to preach the gospel, not to baptize: "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17). If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn't necessary for salvation.

Additionally, in Acts, Peter was preaching the gospel, people got saved, and then they were baptized. Acts 10:44-46 says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days" (NIV). These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers, see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized. This simply isn't an exception. It is a reality.
 
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Qoheleth

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Let's Suppose...

Another way of making this clear is to use an illustration. Let's suppose that a person, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), believed in Jesus as his savior (Rom. 10:9-10; Titus 2:13), and has received Christ (John 1:12) as Savior. Is that person saved? Of course he is. Let's further suppose that this person confesses his sinfulness, cries out in repentance to the Lord, and receives Jesus as Savior and then walks across the street to get baptized at a local church. In the middle of the road he gets hit by a car and is killed. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to heaven then baptism isn't necessary for salvation. If He goes to hell, then trusting in Jesus, by faith, isn't enough for salvation. Doesn't that go against the Scriptures that say that salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9)?

Saying that baptism is necessary for salvation is dangerous because it is saying that there is something we must do to complete salvation. That is wrong! See Gal. 2:21; 5:4.
All right, so this sounds reasonable. But still, what about those verses that seem to say that baptism is part of salvation? I'll address those now. But, because this subject can become quite lengthy, in fact, sufficient for a book in itself, I'll only address a few verses and then only briefly.


Baptism Verses

John 3:5, "Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'"
Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism isn't necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced.
It is my opinion that the water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process. Jesus said in verse three that Nicodemus needed to be born "again." This meant that he had been born once--through his mother. Nicodemus responds with a statement about how he can't enter again into his mother's womb to be born. Then Jesus says that he must be born of water and the Spirit. Then in verse 6 He says that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.." The context seems to be discussing the contrast between the natural and the spiritual birth. Water, therefore, could easily be interpreted there to mean the natural birth process.
I would like to add that there are scholars who agree with the position and some who do not. Some believe that the water refers to the Word of God, the Bible, and others claim it means the Holy Spirit. You decide for yourself.


Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.‘"
This verse is a tough one. It seems to say that baptism is part of salvation. But we know, from other scriptures that it isn't, lest there be a contradiction. What is going on here is simply that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." Repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God, that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, repent and get baptized.


1 Pet. 3:21, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also -- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
This is the only verse that says that baptism saves. But, the NIV translation of the verse is unfortunate. A better translation is found in the NASB which says, "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon. It means "copy," "type," corresponding to," "a thing resembling another," "its counterpart," etc. Baptism is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is "Of what is it a type?", or "Baptism corresponds to what?". The answer is found in the previous verse, verse 20: "who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you" (NASB).
What does baptism correspond to? Is it the flood? Or, is it the ark? What was it that saved Noah and his family? Was it the water or the ark? Obviously, it was the Ark. Noah built and entered the ark by faith and was saved (Heb. 11:7). The flood waters destroyed the ungodly. Peter, when referring to the flood waters, refers to them as the means of destruction of the ungodly (2 Pet. 2:5; 3:6). It was the Ark that saved. Noah entered the ark by faith. Baptism here, in my opinion, refers to the Ark, not the waters. That is why the rest of the verse says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God" which is consistent with what Paul said in Col. 2:11-12 where He equates baptism with being circumcised of heart.


Acts 22:16, "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."
Is the washing away of sins done by baptism, the representation of the circumcised heart (Col. 2:11-12) which means you are already saved, or is it by the blood of Christ (Heb. 9:14; Rom. 5:9; Eph. 1:7)? Obviously it is the blood of Jesus and the washing here refers to the calling on Jesus' name.


Rom. 6:4, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
Because the believer is so closely united to Christ it is said that the symbol of baptism is our death, burial, and resurrection. Obviously we did not die--unless, of course, it is a figurative usage.


Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
The washing of rebirth can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. It is not the symbol that saves, but the reality. The reality is the blood of Christ.


Gal. 3:27, "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
This is speaking of the believer's union with Christ. It is an identification with, a joining to, a proclamation of loyalty to, etc. In 1 Cor. 10:2 the Israelites were baptized into Moses. That means they were closely identified with him and his purpose. The same thing is meant here.



 
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GenemZ

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Qoheleth said:
Scripture tells us to "confess our sins, one to another" James 5:16

Why do you suppose it says this???

In James many things were going wrong in the Church because many were fighting against each other. They were not to confess personal sins. They were to confess wrongdoings to one another and to ask for forgiveness.


James 5: 9
"Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!"

They were about to be judged if they did not stop! God would strike them with judgement!

James 5:16 niv
"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed."

Healed, because they were being judged for grumbling agianst each other. So, confess to each other and be healed. Judgement will be removed.

They were going through a time of testing as a group.

"Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy." James 5:10-11 niv

Like the Jews in the wilderness who grumbled against those leading them perished, this church was in danger of dying the sin onto death. God's Word was telling them to ask forgiveness from each other by confessing their wrongdoings towards each other. God's Word was not indicating confessing personal sins that were not concerning another.

James 5:16a niv

"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed."

Does one go to Confession to confess sins, so they can be healed? NO! These people needed to be healed because they were grumbling against one another during a corporate time of trial and testing.

They needed to endure the situation God had them in, not critcize each other and grumble as they had been doing! That is why they needed to be healed! God was judging them!

James 5: 9
"Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!"

It is sort of like when a parent tells one child to tell the other that he is sorry for doing him wrong. He is not supposed to tell his brother that he hit a girl in class last week, though. That one is between him and God. Likewise, in James, they were to confess their sins to each other. The sins they commited against each other! There had been grumbling against one another and God was about to judge them (sin onto death, or sickness).

Grace and peace, GeneZ
 
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GenemZ

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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
baptisim means to put into

not water


It actually means to be put into identifying with something... To be immersed in to a phenomena or thing, so to speak.

"They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea." 1 Corinthians 10:2

If you were just entering the Army, one could say you were about to be baptized into your drill instructer. ;)

Grace and peace, GeneZ
 
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