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Baptism? Necessary for Salvation?

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GenemZ

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Shelb5 said:
Two. I am so to the point of repeating myself in this thread. One comes to believe they are sinners in need of redemption. Believing itself can not redeem you- even the demons believe- that is earning it.

Man! What a perfect example of not being careful how you hear! Demons believe what? In Jesus Christ? Or, that there is a God? Get your Scripture right from the foundation and you will not build what is false upon what is false!

" You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder. "

These were Jews, James was confronting! Jews believe there is a God! The Pharisees believed there is a God! But, they refused to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ! Believing in God does not give one the baptism of the Holy Spirit!

"Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:29 niv

You took a verse saying that simply believing in God will not save you.

That if they had believed in the Lord Jesus Christ they would have living faith, and living faith would produce works!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The key is, "living faith." That can only happen with the Holy Spirit living in you! You believe in God? Fine! Demons even believe there is a God! Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, get away from the Law, and start having an active faith!

"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household." Acts 16:31 niv

Many do not realize when they read the book of James, that James was the head over a Jewish congregation. Jews who were accustomed to living under Law, not faith! He was attacking their salvation concept. They figured keeping the Law would save them. They were accustomed to following rules and regulations. Faith requires spontaneity from the heart that comes from having knowledge of the Word. Faith is having the knowledge of the Word to come alive in our actions! He was telling them to stop acting like Jews under Law, and to start experiencing the New Life in Christ!

Yet, many of James people rejected James grace thinking. Many desired to be under the Law, not faith.

We are not commanded to be baptized. We are commanded to believe and we will be baptized!

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16

Those who do not believe, are not baptized!

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

When you believe, you are baptized by the Spirit! When you do not believe, you are not baptized!

"Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized." Acts 18:8 niv

We are no longer to be water baptized!

"Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." Acts 11:16 niv

You will not find any mention of water associated with baptism in the Book of Acts after chapter 11, verse,16 -- once Peter recalled what the Lord told him in Acts 1:5. No more water baptisms took place.

In the Church age we are all baptized in the Holy Spirit when we believe.

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." 1 Corinthians 12:13 niv

If we have to have water and Spirit baptisms, that would make two baptisms fro the Church age.


"one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Ephesians 4:5 niv

For those who worship tradition rather than the Word.... so be it. No more debate from me.
Grace and peace, GeneZ
 
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Benedicta00

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SLStrohkirch said:
Explain how Redemption and Salvation are two different concepts. Define each so that we know the difference. Too often believers get these two concepts mixed up so if you would honor me with the definition of Redemption and with the definition of Salvation I am sure that the Protestants here would greatly appreciate this so we don't get mixed up again.:scratch:
Redemption is when we are redeemed from being born to the human race who cut themselves off from God, aka original sin. Being saved is when you are in heaven- saved. You can’t be saved unless you have been redeemed. No one comes to the father but by Christ.
 
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Benedicta00

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genez said:
Man! What a perfect example of not being careful how you hear! Demons believe what? In Jesus Christ? Or, that there is a God? Get your Scripture right from the foundation and you will not build what is false upon what is false!

" You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder. "

These were Jews, James was confronting! Jews believe there is a God! The Pharisees believed there is a God! But, they refused to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ! Believing in God does not give one the baptism of the Holy Spirit!

"Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:29 niv

You took a verse saying that simply believing in God will not save you.

That if they had believed in the Lord Jesus Christ they would have living faith, and living faith would produce works!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The key is, "living faith." That can only happen with the Holy Spirit living in you! You believe in God? Fine! Demons even believe there is a God! Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, get away from the Law, and start having an active faith!

"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household." Acts 16:31 niv

Many do not realize when they read the book of James, that James was the head over a Jewish congregation. Jews who were accustomed to living under Law, not faith! He was attacking their salvation concept. They figured keeping the Law would save them. They were accustomed to following rules and regulations. Faith requires spontaneity from the heart that comes from having knowledge of the Word. Faith is having the knowledge of the Word to come alive in our actions! He was telling them to stop acting like Jews under Law, and to start experiencing the New Life in Christ!

Yet, many of James people rejected James grace thinking. Many desired to be under the Law, not faith.

We are not commanded to be baptized. We are commanded to believe and we will be baptized!

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16

Those who do not believe, are not baptized!

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

When you believe, you are baptized by the Spirit! When you do not believe, you are not baptized!

"Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized." Acts 18:8 niv

We are no longer to be water baptized!

"Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." Acts 11:16 niv

You will not find any mention of water associated with baptism in the Book of Acts after chapter 11, verse,16 -- once Peter recalled what the Lord told him in Acts 1:5. No more water baptisms took place.

In the Church age we are all baptized in the Holy Spirit when we believe.

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." 1 Corinthians 12:13 niv

If we have to have water and Spirit baptisms, that would make two baptisms fro the Church age.


"one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Ephesians 4:5 niv

For those who worship tradition rather than the Word.... so be it. No more debate from me.
Grace and peace, GeneZ

I’m going to make this simple, but you need to tone down the rhetoric and insults against those who believe differently than you.


We are born fallen people we are not capable of a living faith in God in a unredeemed state. A living faith would mean believeing that Jesus Christ is our savior and following Him until the end of our lives.

In a fallen state, how are we capable of even coming to know that we are indeed sinners in need of a savior if we do not have any faith? We are not born with faith. God grants, confers, pour out his prevenient grace, which is an actual grace, not sanctifying grace into all our hearts and by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit calling us to realize that we are in need of mercy, we then come to believe that we need to be reconciled back to God. That is when you are baptized and in this mystery we are buried with Christ and we rise again with Him, that is being born again. It is freely given in the sacrament- not from our own choice to respond to grace.

Now take all your verses. Like “confess with your lips, believe in your heart…” ect, and read them in this light. All the verse Protestants love to quote is after one is redeemed from original sin, not before and certainly it is not the thing that redeems us because we can not earn redemption with belief, faith, acceptance, ect. It must be given to us free. We then must accept the graces of redemption if we will be saved, but we do not earn redemption, it is freely give by God.

Once we are baptized, we are filled with sanctifying grace. We now have the divine life living in us. We were given faith, hope and love but in seed form, we must grow them by persevering in faith to the end if we will be saved. Paul says we now have the hope of glory. Glory is when you are actually in heaven. We have the hope now because we have been redeemed that we will share in Christ’s glory if we do not opt to reject the graces given in baptism unto death. That is our “salvation” we are redeemed by the blood of Christ and that can never- ever- for any reason be lost to us but we must cooperate and accept Christ’s blood if we will have the promise of glory.
 
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Benedicta00

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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
1 cor 12:13 and the H.S. baptizes us into Christ when we believe

It says no such thing. Why don't you post the verse itself and I will show you that it says no such thing.

why is it nessecary

because God wanted it that way.
....romans 6 if not counted in him we are not counted in his death or resurrection verse 3 , 8



I really don't think so. You have to back up first and stop assuming that "baptism" means some metaphor for God regenerating you spontaneously.

Show me where baptism would mean some other kind of regeneration and not water baptism in the name of the Trinity?

Show me where it says it is a empty work that shows what has already taken place.

Show me where it says that it is a ordnance but if you ignore it, it’s bad but it does not mean you lost salvation.
 
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GenemZ

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Shelb5 said:
I’m going to make this simple, but you need to tone down the rhetoric and insults against those who believe differently than you.

Interesting...

What is it that I said that you took as insults?

I have a feeling that what I said insulted you. But, it did not contain insults.
There is a big difference.

Grace and truth... GeneZ
 
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SPALATIN

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Shelb5 said:
Redemption is when we are redeemed from being born to the human race who cut themselves off from God, aka original sin. Being saved is when you are in heaven- saved. You can’t be saved unless you have been redeemed. No one comes to the father but by Christ.
That makes more sense. Most people in the Protestant ranks (anything to the left side of Lutheran) would say Once saved always saved which is a contradiction to Scripture. Your definition would say that we were redeemed by the Blood of Christ. When something is redeemed it has restored value. Man was created into perfection and when presented with a choice chose to sin thereby losing his value as a perfect being. Christ crucified restored the value of those who are Born again into the faith through Holy Baptism via the Holy Spirit.

I can not by my own reason and strength come to faith in Christ. Only through the Holy Spirit do I receive a saving faith. For it is by Grace that we have been saved through faith and this not of ourselves. It is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast. Eph 2:8-9.
 
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GreenEyedLady

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Shelb5 said:
I really don't think so. You have to back up first and stop assuming that "baptism" means some metaphor for God regenerating you spontaneously.

Show me where baptism would mean some other kind of regeneration and not water baptism in the name of the Trinity?

Show me where it says it is a empty work that shows what has already taken place.

Show me where it says that it is a ordnance but if you ignore it, it’s bad but it does not mean you lost salvation.
You have written all your opinion yet backed NOTHING you said up with any kind of scripture. Then when one gives scriptures you discredit them with your opinions and still post no scripture to back up what YOUR saying.
How can anyone take you seriously? I surley cannot.


I’m going to make this simple, but you need to tone down the rhetoric and insults against those who believe differently than you.
Your tone is not any better than anyone elses on here.

I would like to know WHERE in scripture it says that you are saved in heaven and redeemed on the earth.


I can not by my own reason and strength come to faith in Christ. Only through the Holy Spirit do I receive a saving faith.
Are you serious? I am having a hard time relating to this. What about the faith of good ole Abe, or Noah, or David, what about any of the OT prophets? This is a false assumtion saying that you cannot come by your own reason. The bible is clear on salvation and the faith of many men before anyone was baptized. Being born again is a choice of free will. It is BY our own reason and choice that we are born again.

Both of you are very religious and I appreciate that. You really know your church. I could take both of you alot more seriously if you would use scripture in context to back up what you are saying. The fact is that is not possible because what you both are stating are traditions of men and the church.

In Christ,
GEL


 
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@@Paul@@

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genez said:
I will try....



Yes. At times. That is why we need to rightly divide the Word of God. Just was the Bible records the words of Satan in the fall, it also records errors made by the saints, as well. Yes, Peter made mistakes. Paul even had to chew out Peter at one point when Peter fell from grace and reverted back into legalism.

"When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray." Galatians 2:11-13 niv



The man they picked is never heard of again. God did not tell them to draw lot's on the issue. They took it upon themselves to do so.

From Acts 1

23~~ And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

{Note: NO! God the Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts. The gifts are not ever given to someone that man chooses (or even a group of men). The Exodus generation made a similar type error in trying to replace God's choice for leader.}

24-25~~ And they prayed {example of a useless prayer}, and said, "Thou, Lord, Who knows the hearts of all men, show which of these two Thou has chosen, 25~~ that he may take part of this ministry and apostle-ship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place?"

26~~ And they gave forth their lots {they voted!}; and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

{Note: Apostleship was a temporary spiritual gift. It was not awarded by God based on a vote by men!}




God chose Paul. Men did not vote for him.



"On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." Acts 1:4-5 niv

The time to baptize with water was over. Jesus told Peter it was. Just read my other post, again. I did give chapter and verse for all of it. I realize that if you have been dogmatically taught otherwise, that it may come as somewhat of a shock to you. Just as many teach that the Three Wise men met Jesus in the manger. Fact is, they did not find Jesus until he was about two years old! We have a good number of misconceptions because no one questions the traditions of men and do not search to see what the Scriptures actually teach.




"Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with (in) water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' " Acts 11:16

Peter had totally forgotten what Jesus had told him back in Acts 1:5. He says that he forgot in chapter 11. It is right after he recalls the words of the Lord, that we no longer see water baptisms recorded in the Book of Acts. All water baptisms take place before Peter remembered.

"At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized." Acts 16:33 niv

How could the entire household be all immediately baptized in water? That only can happen with the Holy Spirit baptism!

"immediately" NASB

"immediately" Amplified Bible

"immediately" New King James Version

"immediately" American Standard Version

Grace and peace, GeneZ
OK, thank you.

While i do not agree with you on most of these points (especially the 12th Apostle). I appreciate you taking the time to clarify... If you would like my thoughts, I will respond.

God Bless

FYI. there are 24 Apostles listed in the Acts. 11 under Peter and 11 under Paul. ;)
 
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GenemZ

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@@Paul@@ said:
OK, thank you.

While i do not agree with you on most of these points (especially the 12th Apostle). I appreciate you taking the time to clarify... If you would like my thoughts, I will respond.

I can not know if I will like your thoughts, unless you respond. ;)


FYI. there are 24 Apostles listed in the Acts. 11 under Peter and 11 under Paul. ;)

Interesting... I do realize that certain men are called apostles, other than the twelve. But, I always saw them as "acting apostles." They were delegated by apostles, not God, to do the work of an apostle. For, if God did not give them direct revelation of Scripture, we can not say that were apostles in the sense of those Jesus called. Jesus called Paul directly, like he did the original twelve. We do not see that of the others. We only see them as being delegated by the Apostles to a position of authority.... sort of like being vice presidents. But, let's see what you have to say. :)

Grace and peace, GeneZ
 
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Benedicta00

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SLStrohkirch said:
That makes more sense. Most people in the Protestant ranks (anything to the left side of Lutheran) would say Once saved always saved which is a contradiction to Scripture. Your definition would say that we were redeemed by the Blood of Christ. When something is redeemed it has restored value. Man was created into perfection and when presented with a choice chose to sin thereby losing his value as a perfect being. Christ crucified restored the value of those who are Born again into the faith through Holy Baptism via the Holy Spirit.

I can not by my own reason and strength come to faith in Christ. Only through the Holy Spirit do I receive a saving faith. For it is by Grace that we have been saved through faith and this not of ourselves. It is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast. Eph 2:8-9.
I agree. I’m glad Catholics can agree with the Lutherans on this point.
 
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Benedicta00

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GreenEyedLady said:
You have written all your opinion yet backed NOTHING you said up with any kind of scripture. Then when one gives scriptures you discredit them with your opinions and still post no scripture to back up what YOUR saying.
How can anyone take you seriously? I surley cannot.


Your tone is not any better than anyone elses on here.

I would like to know WHERE in scripture it says that you are saved in heaven and redeemed on the earth.



Are you serious? I am having a hard time relating to this. What about the faith of good ole Abe, or Noah, or David, what about any of the OT prophets? This is a false assumtion saying that you cannot come by your own reason. The bible is clear on salvation and the faith of many men before anyone was baptized. Being born again is a choice of free will. It is BY our own reason and choice that we are born again.

Both of you are very religious and I appreciate that. You really know your church. I could take both of you alot more seriously if you would use scripture in context to back up what you are saying. The fact is that is not possible because what you both are stating are traditions of men and the church.

In Christ,
GEL



I apologize but I don’t answer questions based on false premises. No where in scripture you will find it saying that I have to show anything based on scripture only.
 
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@@Paul@@

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Yes. At times. That is why we need to rightly divide the Word of God. Just was the Bible records the words of Satan in the fall, it also records errors made by the saints, as well. Yes, Peter made mistakes. Paul even had to chew out Peter at one point when Peter fell from grace and reverted back into legalism.

"When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray." Galatians 2:11-13 niv


The man they picked is never heard of again. God did not tell them to draw lot's on the issue. They took it upon themselves to do so.

From Acts 1

23~~ And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

{Note: NO! God the Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts. The gifts are not ever given to someone that man chooses (or even a group of men). The Exodus generation made a similar type error in trying to replace God's choice for leader.}

24-25~~ And they prayed {example of a useless prayer}, and said, "Thou, Lord, Who knows the hearts of all men, show which of these two Thou has chosen, 25~~ that he may take part of this ministry and apostle-ship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place?"

26~~ And they gave forth their lots {they voted!}; and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

{Note: Apostleship was a temporary spiritual gift. It was not awarded by God based on a vote by men!}

God chose Paul. Men did not vote for him.
I will try.... And please bear with me, as I feel ALL of the following ties together and is linked to the “necessity” of water baptism during Peter’s ministry ONLY.

Now regarding “the mistakes”.
Luk 24:44-48 KJV
(44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
(45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
(46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
(47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
(48) And ye are witnesses of these things.​
……Christ, personally taught the 11 out of the scriptures, Luke says He even “opened their” understanding.
Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.​
….Peter was sent BY Jesus, just as the Father sent Christ. I think he (Peter) knew exactly what to do…
Act 1:1-3 KJV
(1) The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
(2) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
(3) To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:​
...One is called an Apostle because one is sent (usually with a mission). The Apostles of the kingdom were sent BY Jesus (who instructed them out of the scriptures for 40 days) and were given commandments FROM the Holy Spirit AFTER Christ’s ascension. This group of Apostles did not include Paul, as Paul was not “… seen of them forty days”.

Note: there are to be 12 Apostles judging the twelve tribes of Israel during the generation when…
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​
… the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory. Not 11, but 12!!

So Peter, and the 10 KNEW they must fill the spot (the message of Grace given to Paul was still a mystery at this time).
Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.​
….Notice the rule to be an Apostle here, you had to be there from the beginning (the baptism of John) UNTIL the ascension. They appointed TWO people who fit this profile. Paul had NOT been with them all that time so he could not be a “witnesses of these things (Luk 24:44-48)”.

One of the two must be choosen… So the 11 decided to cast lots. This was a very Jewish thing to do. Barnes put together a good summary regarding this: I think I’ll plagiarize. :)
And they gave forth their lots - Some have supposed that this means they voted. But to this interpretation there are insuperable objections:
1. The word “lots,” κλήρους klērous, is not used to express votes, or suffrage.
2. The expression “the lot fell upon” is not consistent with the notion of voting. It is commonly expressive of casting lots.
3. Casting lots was common among the Jews on important and difficult occasions, and it was natural that the apostles should resort to it in this.
Thus, David divided the priests by lot, 1Ch_24:5. The land of Canaan was divided by lot, Num_26:55; Jos. 15; Jos_16:1-10; Jos. 17; etc. Jonathan, son of Saul, was detected as having violated his father’s command. and as bringing calamity on the Israelites by lot, 1Sa_14:41-42. Achan was detected by lot, Jos_7:16-18. In these instances the use of the lot was regarded as a solemn appeal to God for his direct interference in cases which they could not themselves decide. Pro_16:33, “the lot is cast into the lap, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.” The choice of an apostle was an event of the same kind, and was regarded as a solemn appeal to God for his direction and guidance in a case which the apostles could not determine.
………Hopefully we can see that casting lots is a way God uses to make His will known. Peter and the 11 were sent TO the circumcision; Paul and the 11 were sent to the un-circumcision. Two different groups; two different callings. I believe 11 Apostles were listed under Paul (just as Peter) to give the same validity to “his gospel”.
"On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." Acts 1:4-5 niv

The time to baptize with water was over. Jesus told Peter it was. Just read my other post, again. I did give chapter and verse for all of it. I realize that if you have been dogmatically taught otherwise, that it may come as somewhat of a shock to you. Just as many teach that the Three Wise men met Jesus in the manger. Fact is, they did not find Jesus until he was about two years old! We have a good number of misconceptions because no one questions the traditions of men and do not search to see what the Scriptures actually teach.

"Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with (in) water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' " Acts 11:16

Peter had totally forgotten what Jesus had told him back in Acts 1:5. He says that he forgot in chapter 11. It is right after he recalls the words of the Lord, that we no longer see water baptisms recorded in the Book of Acts. All water baptisms take place before Peter remembered.
As it pertains to the Gospel of the un-circumcision, I believe Peter did make mistakes. Paul was given this revelation, not Peter.

Paul did “re-baptized” people in Acts 19 (there were about 12 disciples) ;)

Peter said the “word” had not changed since the baptism which John preached.
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;​
… It is never recorded that Jesus Christ told Peter to STOP baptizing in water. The baptism WITH the Holy Spirit is a baptism of POWER. Water baptism WAS a baptism of repentance on……. Ready, who HAD COME and what they had done to Him (Acts 2). Today we are baptized BY the Holy Spirit into one body (the ONE baptism). Things that are different are not the same.
"At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized." Acts 16:33 niv
How could the entire household be all immediately baptized in water? That only can happen with the Holy Spirit baptism!

"immediately" NASB
"immediately" Amplified Bible
"immediately" New King James Version
"immediately" American Standard Version
Grace and peace, GeneZ
Once I was at McDonald’s and I was hungry; then I immediately ate.
Once I was hungry so I ate immediately.

Two possibilities for the jailor; He (and his family) was baptized right where he washed “their wounds”. OR immediately refers to “without delay”. i.e. as soon as possible.

Although i do agree Water baptism IS no longer necessary, It was required during the Acts period. Saying that Peter made mistakes regarding this Jewish tradition, is not really a valid argument.

Paul could have made a mistake too. :) Thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts... I do enjoy reading your posts!! God Bless.
 
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GenemZ

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@@Paul@@ said:
So Peter, and the 10 KNEW they must fill the spot (the message of Grace given to Paul was still a mystery at this time).
Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. etc, etc.​

Good to see what you feel is the truth. You saw what I think. Now, we can let others decide.

Grace and peace, GeneZ
 
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Shelb5 said:
It says no such thing. Why don't you post the verse itself and I will show you that it says no such thing.

1 cor 12:13 The Holy spirit baptises us into Christ when we believe
ok here it is

1 cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baoptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we are bond or free; and have been all made to regenerated into one Spirit
because God wanted it that way.




I really don't think so. You have to back up first and stop assuming that "baptism" means some metaphor for God regenerating you spontaneously.
acts 10:43 whosoever believeth in him shall recieve remission of sins.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath matured for ever them that are sanctified

hebrew 11:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

This is postional in the heavens not on earth

ever study postional truth
or body truth

these are mysteries for a clue



Show me where baptism would mean some other kind of regeneration and not water baptism in the name of the Trinity?
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into His dead

Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him



Show me where it says it is a empty work that shows what has already taken place.

Show me where it says that it is a ordnance but if you ignore it, it’s bad but it does not mean you lost salvation.
romans 4:5 ungodly man believed

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputed righteousness without works 7 Saying, blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of Goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the Holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself



Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. .....this is postional truth then it happens at His appearing


Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, ABBA, Father 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God Father through Christ.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him patiencly took the cross, despising the shame, and is set to rest down at the right hand of of the throne of the Father.

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto son's, My son, despise not thou chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He recieveth.

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are parkaers, then ye *******s, not sons.


1 thes 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you. 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengence on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Shelb5 said:
I apologize but #1 I don’t answer questions based on false premises.

#2 No where in scripture you will find it saying that I have to show anything based on scripture only.
#1 according to who?

#2 .... 1 peter 3:15 But sanctifiy the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

2 tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth
 
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GreenEyedLady

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Shelb5 said:
I apologize but I don’t answer questions based on false premises. No where in scripture you will find it saying that I have to show anything based on scripture only.
Ok, Your not making sense here on this thread.
You make the above statement, after asking questions like these:

Show me where baptism would mean some other kind of regeneration and not water baptism in the name of the Trinity?
Show me where it says it is a empty work that shows what has already taken place.
Show me where it says that it is a ordnance but if you ignore it, it’s bad but it does not mean you lost salvation.


You want US to provide scripture when its convient for you, but when its not convient for your own doctrine, you make claim like the first quote I posted. You don't answer questions based on false premisie, but you can ask them? Thats not very fair for the rest of us here who are trying to have a discussion that we can all learn from.
You like a wall, I cannot climb over, or even lean against. :scratch:
GEL
 
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Benedicta00

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GreenEyedLady said:
Ok, Your not making sense here on this thread.
You make the above statement, after asking questions like these:



You want US to provide scripture when its convient for you, but when its not convient for your own doctrine, you make claim like the first quote I posted. You don't answer questions based on false premisie, but you can ask them? Thats not very fair for the rest of us here who are trying to have a discussion that we can all learn from.
You like a wall, I cannot climb over, or even lean against. :scratch:
GEL
My point is, I have given scripture even though my evidence is not limited to scripture only in past posts, but what I gave has been ignored and I have asked for someone to show me if regeneration is done by some metaphorical baptism that is not water baptism, and that is a outward sign, and that it is a ordnance, where it is in the bible?

And you responded with this…
You have written all your opinion yet backed NOTHING you said up with any kind of scripture. Then when one gives scriptures you discredit them with your opinions and still post no scripture to back up what YOUR saying.
How can anyone take you seriously? I surley cannot.

I have “backed up” every last thing I have said with scripture and ECF writings, just to be ignored and just to have straw arguments still being used.

The only reason why I re entered this thread again was because straws are still being used. That we think it is the water that saves, and that we think water baptism is the only way of salvation. No one has promoted such things, and my point in posting is establish that fact.
 
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Benedicta00

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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
#1 according to who?

The bible

#2 .... 1 peter 3:15 But sanctifiy the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

2 tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth
Yes, that really says that the bible- the written word is the only and sole source of God's word.

Straw, straw, straw, who said the bible wasn't true? that is the point you have established, not that it is the ONLY truth.

The bible does not say the written word is the ONLY truth and to boot- nothing you posted is saying that we are to only use the bible to show truth.

I really don't want to continue with this either because you will never be able (no one ever has) to prove sola scripture by using only scripture.
 
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Benedicta00

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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
acts 10:43 whosoever believeth in him shall recieve remission of sins.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath matured for ever them that are sanctified

hebrew 11:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

This is postional in the heavens not on earth

ever study postional truth
or body truth

these are mysteries for a clue




Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into His dead

Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him




romans 4:5 ungodly man believed

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputed righteousness without works 7 Saying, blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of Goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the Holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself



Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. .....this is postional truth then it happens at His appearing


Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, ABBA, Father 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God Father through Christ.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him patiencly took the cross, despising the shame, and is set to rest down at the right hand of of the throne of the Father.

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto son's, My son, despise not thou chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He recieveth.

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are parkaers, then ye *******s, not sons.


1 thes 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you. 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengence on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Everything you posted actually supports water baptism as regenerational…

Read them in this light, one is redeemed by baptismal graces given by God to them through these means, in which God gave us. Then- because we are justified now, we can be saved as we accept Christ and persevere to the end in faith. It is faith that saves and no man can come to God but by Jesus and no man can come to be born again but by the grace of God. We are saved by grace alone.
 
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GenemZ

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Shelb5 said:
The bible


Yes, that really says that the bible- the written word is the only and sole source of God's word.

Straw, straw, straw, who said the bible wasn't true? that is the point you have established, not that it is the ONLY truth.

The bible does not say the written word is the ONLY truth and to boot- nothing you posted is saying that we are to only use the bible to show truth.

I really don't want to continue with this either because you will never be able (no one ever has) to prove sola scripture by using only scripture.

Would Jesus lie to us?

"Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" Matthew 4:4 niv

God esteems His Word above all that is!

"I will worship toward Your holy temple and praise Your name for Your loving-kindness and for Your truth and faithfulness; for You have exalted above all else Your name and Your word and You have magnified Your Word above all Your name! " Psalm 138:21 Amplified Trans

We are nothing without knowing the Word correctly! Nothing!

"'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

Its knowing the Word correctly that saves us from stupidity and evil all around us! False doctrine equals a false life!

"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers." 1 Timothy 4:16 niv


Certain sentimental types cling to the traditions of men like a small child clings to a security blanket. They never grow up spritually. They stomp their feet and whine when they can not get their way. Religion is a root of evil. Jesus did not come to form another religion. He came to establish a way for relationship with the Father. Not the traditions of men!

"They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." Mark 7:7-8 niv

Traditions of men are teachings that distort or add to the Word of God, telling men things that the Word never speaks of. Yet, these will use the Word to justify the traditions by distorting it.

Without correctly knowing Scripture we are nothings in God's sight. Nothings that stick with church dogma, and deny God the following of His Word.

Grace in truth, GeneZ
 
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