Baptism and communion

chevyontheriver

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I wonder for those who believe communion is necessary such as orthodox and catholic if they believe a person is in hospital and has few hours to live and he can’t see a priest if they believe anyone can give communion I heard view layman maybe they suppose from church can baptise in such situations but what if there is no one from church? Could they also suppose if no one heard of orthodox or catholic faith that they are not required to join if they had never been exposed to it ?
Catholics allow some lay members to bring communion to the sick. It happens all the time around the world. As to baptism, any lay person may baptize in an emergency. Actually anyone may validly baptize with water and the right words and the intent to do what the Church does in baptism.

As to those who have never heard of Jesus, God is fair to them in ways we do not know. Yet it is our duty to make Jesus known.
 
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mikeforjesus

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I believe everyone who believes has a part in eternal life who repents while he can to follow after righteousness to seek to serve Him as with parable of talents that you need to seek to serve God while you can or you can die while not seeking to do what you know but you can turn any time before time of death that you don’t know it is time you may die.

But the bible still says you need to be baptised and have communion to be saved and we must through many trials and tribulation enter the kingdom as such sacraments make you able to participate in Christ to be united to God to be saved on death it is inner kingdom a journey inside. The sacraments allow you to participate in Christ for journey to be saved on death to do works which make you united to God not to others which you should preach so others to do too but they are never made required to be saved.

For the parable of the 10 virgins is to teach to have real relationship with God that works towards others are evidence of it to ensure you are ready but the relation is really most important to truly repent genuinely to others while you can before you die and the parable of the talents is to preach Christ in ways you can with the ability and talent He shows you He wants you need to be seeking to do what you know you must do or you may not get opportunity to repent but the sacraments allow you to commune with God to have journey to be purified to enter kingdom on death.

If one has it late and did not go through all trials he will be in waiting place to have chance to fulfil journey after death those without sacraments will also first be chastened first for they are also still in state without the applying of His blood on soul to save one now to not suffer for one sins first in waiting place but not to enter kingdom unless prepared through struggle and grace of sacraments but the promise of redemption for believing. The sacraments allow you to do those works to prepared to enter God presence but they are not works required you need to do just to fulfill journey to heaven. Though if that is true and one know more it is talent but not a talent Christ gave to say to preach one only must preach what is required because that talent is not contained within it the fact that such is required to preach.
 
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mikeforjesus

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I believe all Christian’s who believe do so by the work of the Holy Spirit and he instructs all believers as they read the word He dwells with them as Jesus or they are counted as receiving Holy Spirit if he helps to believe and teach as we know gentiles who believed received the Holy Spirit but that is meant to receive it just for his gifts and to be guided but to receive the Holy Spirit to dwell in one to change one you need ordinance of baptism and communion means to receive the power of regeneration in one life to be made new.
 
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mikeforjesus

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You do not need baptism and communion to be saved but you do to be saved on death as you only need to make profit to serve God in any way to make profit by preaching if you can and to support those that do to do what you can with what you know that he has shown you but baptism and communion are extra talents of sanctification to draw people to Christ and to allow to commune to have more strength to do more for Christ
 
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mikeforjesus

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I believe in order to be redeemed one only needs faith in Jesus and to follow Him but person is not ready to still enter to be purified if he has not been baptised and to have communion when one can so person is purified. One should take communion often when one can if one is repentant to ensure one is ready for it is needed to have taken it regularly not daily or atleast recently to ensure you can be purified. For one would not be purified if he does not take when he had chance and if he does not have when he can he may die before having chance to to make one ready now.Communion is necessary to allow one to be alive now to purify one and allow one to commune with God to purify one and to works of intercession for others to reach them that they may be purified too but others are still saved as such works are not necessary only that people are repentant.
 
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mikeforjesus

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I believe it is important to have communion to be purified to be completely ready in Christ to have it when you have chance but should not be done if you are not daily walking with Christ Jesus said to do it as often as you do in rememberance of me until I come so if you are not daily walking with Christ to repent of your sins and seek to examine yourself for all your sins.

Jesus said in his day the Pharisees sat in Moses seat meaning they assumed themselves successors and may have been before until they strayed and rejected Jesus to teach from his law or only they were before Christ came as God was working to be among them and did not say they should not listen to any thing they say but not to do things they added by tradition but they were not to accept their teaching as they reject Christ the same applies to now though others are believers to be accepted Christ still does not want other adopting their tradition to serve others as He said call no one on earth your teacher but can go to church to have communion.

The communion nourishes you to perfect you in the way to purify of all sin so you may be saved on death. Can be done anywhere but even where 2 or 3 gathered but may be harder to find such if others not offering it regularly to do as often as you want when you are ready. Confession also seems to help prepare that all should see an elder that is one who has been walking with God as Paul said confess your trespasses to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed. That any can where 2 or 3 are gathered I am there and whatever you as believers loose on earth will be loosed In heaven that is believers job to help each other become free as Jesus said if 2 of you agree for anything it will be done by My Father and where 2 or 3 are gathered in any name I am there.
 
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ralliann

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I believe it is important to have communion to be purified to be completely ready in Christ to have it when you have chance but should not be done if you are not daily walking with Christ Jesus said to do it as often as you do in rememberance of me until I come so if you are not daily walking with Christ to repent of your sins and seek to examine yourself for all your sins.

Jesus said in his day the Pharisees sat in Moses seat meaning they assumed themselves successors and may have been before until they strayed and rejected Jesus to teach from his law or only they were before Christ came as God was working to be among them and did not say they should not listen to any thing they say but not to do things they added by tradition but they were not to accept their teaching as they reject Christ the same applies to now though others are believers to be accepted Christ still does not want other adopting their tradition to serve others as He said call no one on earth your teacher but can go to church to have communion.

The communion nourishes you to perfect you in the way to purify of all sin so you may be saved on death. Can be done anywhere but even where 2 or 3 gathered but may be harder to find such if others not offering it regularly to do as often as you want when you are ready. Confession also seems to help prepare that all should see an elder that is one who has been walking with God as Paul said confess your trespasses to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed. That any can where 2 or 3 are gathered I am there and whatever you as believers loose on earth will be loosed In heaven that is believers job to help each other become free as Jesus said if 2 of you agree for anything it will be done by My Father and where 2 or 3 are gathered in any name I am there.
I believe it is important to have communion to be purified to be completely ready in Christ to have it when you have chance but should not be done if you are not daily walking with Christ Jesus said to do it as often as you do in rememberance of me until I come so if you are not daily walking with Christ to repent of your sins and seek to examine yourself for all your sins.

Jesus said in his day the Pharisees sat in Moses seat meaning they assumed themselves successors and may have been before until they strayed and rejected Jesus to teach from his law or only they were before Christ came as God was working to be among them and did not say they should not listen to any thing they say but not to do things they added by tradition but they were not to accept their teaching as they reject Christ the same applies to now though others are believers to be accepted Christ still does not want other adopting their tradition to serve others as He said call no one on earth your teacher but can go to church to have communion.

The communion nourishes you to perfect you in the way to purify of all sin so you may be saved on death. Can be done anywhere but even where 2 or 3 gathered but may be harder to find such if others not offering it regularly to do as often as you want when you are ready. Confession also seems to help prepare that all should see an elder that is one who has been walking with God as Paul said confess your trespasses to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed. That any can where 2 or 3 are gathered I am there and whatever you as believers loose on earth will be loosed In heaven that is believers job to help each other become free as Jesus said if 2 of you agree for anything it will be done by My Father and where 2 or 3 are gathered in any name I am there.
 
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ralliann

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I see you quoted my post without a reply is that what you meant to do if so what is the reason for doing so ?
It was a boo boo. I didn't even know it posted. Sorry. I was going to address the seat of Moses, but decided not to. The seat of Moses was not "sectarian", Jesus drew a contrast between the Pharisees as to their office as Judges vs sectarian teachers. Both Offices, high Priesthood, and Judges gave one voice together from that seat. see Deut 17
 
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mikeforjesus

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As I mentioned in thread condition for people to be saved in last moments.

According to my dad a true believer would accept to be baptised and have communion though communion is only to be had if you are repentant not to just take regularly without being ready and only converts if you believe in it I am not sure christ would not accept but judgement should be left to Christ for others but all people should do it incase to be fully born again not just of faith but through water too that he is ready before he dies but if person did not die but sought to do it one is saved. Though I believed to be born of water could be just to be washed when you hear the gospel and believe it and to be born of Spirit is to then be converted fully as disciple I can not be sure to be left for God but should obey incase and leave judgement to Christ.
 
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mikeforjesus

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I believe now it is not scriptural that any thing is needed except faith. Though baptism and communion are necessary to being fully sanctified to be ready to be saved on death as bible says he who believes and is baptised will be saved but he who does not believe will be condemned and you have no life except through communion to abide that that is how one is raised first on last day but bible says if anyone believes in Him saying the work of God is to believe on Him he will be saved to trust in His work and all such believers he says will be raised in last day but only those who already have been purified will be raised first as bible says so all who are in Christ will be saved but each in his own order which I believe all who have been holy and had sins forgiven through baptism and communion will be saved first. I got my father to admit baptism happens after salvation that you should do to complete it bur salvation is not of works but faith alone.
 
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Doug Brents

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I believe now it is not scriptural that any thing is needed except faith. Though baptism and communion are necessary to being fully sanctified to be ready to be saved on death as bible says he who believes and is baptised will be saved but he who does not believe will be condemned and you have no life except through communion to abide that that is how one is raised first on last day but bible says if anyone believes in Him saying the work of God is to believe on Him he will be saved to trust in His work and all such believers he says will be raised in last day but only those who already have been purified will be raised first as bible says so all who are in Christ will be saved but each in his own order which I believe all who have been holy and had sins forgiven through baptism and communion will be saved first. I got my father to admit baptism happens after salvation that you should do to complete it bur salvation is not of works but faith alone.
Mike, what is faith?
 
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mikeforjesus

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I feel you may come because you have a problem with my faith to try to attack it so I can be led in bad way to harm it but I think not that you come with good intention but it is still wrong to harm people.

You may say faith means to obey because you know God knows better to trust Him that it is put into practice by works to do what He says

The bible says

Hebrews 11:1-4
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

the just shall live by faith people who are righteous know to receive only what is revealed that they know is perfectly just Jesus said before me came thieves but sheep did not hear them to flee from stranger people being righteous did express faith in God though not revealed knowing He is perfectly righteous to trust in that knew what He would prefer to follow it knowing that God is light and in Him is no darkness having faith truly God is just did choose what is just for God reveals Himself as perfectly just whatever He reveals to show and people are to accept whatever is revealed that is shown to be perfectly righteous which is why people are judged because people although they knew God did not glorify Him as God but became futile in their imaginations.

The light is also in the world but the darkness comprehended it not which refers to people of non Christian beliefs who refuse to believe though they see the light because of fear believing their religion though they have no excuse to know it is unjust to others and not honest to consider whether it is right to have evidence for and to look to consider what they heard the evidence.

For the law can not save for by the law is the knowledge of sin that God is holy and no one can pay for their sins to make them holy for sin is against God who requires perfect holiness as He is perfectly holy and will never be without sin but Christ was able to do that for man to be in His stead and even if could all have sinned.

And God is holy that none can enter to dwell with Him with sin and none can offer anything to take away their previous sins needing a perfect substitute who never did which is why the law said lamb must be without blemish to take them away to understand it to not be willing to truly consider their faith if it is reasonable to see that it is not if they seek the Lord to give them faith.
 
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Doug Brents

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I feel you may come because you have a problem with my faith to try to attack it so I can be led in bad way to harm it but I think not that you come with good intention but it is still wrong to harm people.
No, Mike, I am not out to attack you or your faith. I simply want to make sure we are talking about the same thing.
You may say faith means to obey because you know God knows better to trust Him that it is put into practice by works to do what He says

The bible says
Hebrews 11:1-4
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
This is true. Faith is substance and evidence. It is not a "mental only" thing. You cannot sit in a chair, listen to a message preached, and exhibit faith. Faith is not a thought, nor is it a prayer.
the just shall live by faith people who are righteous know to receive only what is revealed that they know is perfectly just Jesus said before me came thieves but sheep did not hear them to flee from stranger people being righteous did express faith in God though not revealed knowing He is perfectly righteous to trust in that knew what He would prefer to follow it knowing that God is light and in Him is no darkness having faith truly God is just did choose what is just for God reveals Himself as perfectly just whatever He reveals to show and people are to accept whatever is revealed that is shown to be perfectly righteous which is why people are judged because people although they knew God did not glorify Him as God but became futile in their imaginations.
The light is also in the world but the darkness comprehended it not which refers to people of non Christian beliefs who refuse to believe though they see the light because of fear believing their religion though they have no excuse to know it is unjust to others and not honest to consider whether it is right to have evidence for and to look to consider what they heard the evidence that the law can not save for by the law is the knowledge of sin that God is holy and no one can pay for their sins to make them holy for sin is against God who requires perfect holiness as He is perfectly holy and will never be without sin but Christ was able to do that for man to be in His stead and even if could all have sinned and none can offer anything to take away their previous sins needing a perfect substitute who never did which is why the law said lamb must be without blemish to take them away to understand it to not be willing to truly consider their faith if it is reasonable to see that it is not if they seek the Lord to give them faith.
I am sorry, please forgive me for my lack of understanding, but this one long sentence is very hard to follow. It is hard to tell where your thoughts end and another begins. Would you mind adding punctuation to your comments so that I can more easily follow your train of thought?

My point in asking you, "What is faith?" was to point out that you were correct when you said that all we need is faith. Our salvation comes as a gift from God and is received through faith (Eph 2:8-9), because faith is belief that causes action. Without the action, the belief is incomplete and dead (James 2:26). Without the action, there is no substance or evidence (Heb 11:1). It is faith that is credited to man as righteousness. So then, what remains if to identify in Scripture those actions that are commanded of God that He says "lead to" (or "lead toward") salvation, as opposed to those actions that "flow from" (or as a result of) salvation.
 
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Doug Brents

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Thankyou sorry to misunderstand. I have added some punctuation full stops and paragraphs.
I appreciate that. It makes it so much easier to understand what you are saying when you show us where one thought ends and another begins. Please don’t take my comments critically. I was just seeking to understand you better.
 
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ViaCrucis

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No, Mike, I am not out to attack you or your faith. I simply want to make sure we are talking about the same thing.

This is true. Faith is substance and evidence. It is not a "mental only" thing. You cannot sit in a chair, listen to a message preached, and exhibit faith. Faith is not a thought, nor is it a prayer.


I am sorry, please forgive me for my lack of understanding, but this one long sentence is very hard to follow. It is hard to tell where your thoughts end and another begins. Would you mind adding punctuation to your comments so that I can more easily follow your train of thought?

My point in asking you, "What is faith?" was to point out that you were correct when you said that all we need is faith. Our salvation comes as a gift from God and is received through faith (Eph 2:8-9), because faith is belief that causes action. Without the action, the belief is incomplete and dead (James 2:26). Without the action, there is no substance or evidence (Heb 11:1). It is faith that is credited to man as righteousness. So then, what remains if to identify in Scripture those actions that are commanded of God that He says "lead to" (or "lead toward") salvation, as opposed to those actions that "flow from" (or as a result of) salvation.

Nothing we do leads to salvation. Even the faith through which we are justified and saved is the gift of God, as it says in Ephesians 2:8, "it is the gift of God, not of yourselves", and we know that it is the promise and word of God that gives and creates faith from what the Apostle has written in Romans 10:17, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ".

Thus the one who hears has faith given to them, and thus we are the passive recipients of God's gifts. So, very much so, the one who hears and believes is saved, because the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them. That is the righteousness of faith, the imputed righteousness of Christ. It is not our righteousness, but God's righteousness. This is why the Apostle has said in Romans chapter 1 that he is not ashamed of the Gospel "for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek, for by it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, so as it is written, 'The just shall walk by faith.'" (Romans 1:16-17).

The righteousness of God revealed in the Gospel is the righteousness by which He declares us righteous on Christ's account, and we are credited righteous because we receive the righteousness of Christ as pure gift.

So that through Word and Sacrament God works to give and create faith, to strengthen faith, to sustain us and hold us and keep us. So that the one who has faith is born again, which happens in the water of Holy Baptism as the Lord Himself said to Nicodemus, that one needs to be born again, that is, to be born of "water and the Spirit" (John 3:3-5), which St. Paul echoes in his letter to Titus (Titus 3:5). And, again, we see the power of God's word connected with the water of Baptism when Paul writes in Ephesians 5:26 that Christ has cleansed the Church "by the washing of water with the word". It is the word connected to and comprehended in and with the water that makes baptism baptism rather than just getting wet; and for this reason St. Peter can say "this baptism which now saves you, not as the washing of dirt from the skin, but as the pledge of a new conscience before God by the power of Christ's resurrection" (1 Peter 3:21).

Baptism, therefore, is God's work. Even as the Lord's Supper is God's work by which we receive the body and blood of the Lord (1 Corinthians 10:16) and thus partake of His once and perfect sacrifice which is for the forgiveness of our sins. So that wherever the word is preached and wherever the Sacraments are administered, God works to give, create, and strengthen faith, through which we are freely justified by His grace.

That this faith should not lay dormant and be choked by thistles and thorns, we must abide in Christ for He is the True Vine and we are the branches. So we abide in Christ by His word, the promises of the Gospel, which make us a new creation in Christ Jesus.

The good works we do are the fruit of the life of faith, for as the Apostle says in Ephesians 2:10, we were created for good works in Jesus Christ, God purposed us in Christ to be doers of good works, to walk in them, to inhabit these works. The works themselves do not render us righteous, as our righteousness is only the righteousness of Jesus Christ given to us as pure gift. But the good works are the product of that life in Christ, and the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, holding and keeping us in Christ through faith, now works to conform us to the image of Christ, that we should imitate Him, live as Him, pick up our cross and follow Him--to the love of God and neighbor. And so the fruit of the Spirit is love, peace, joy, gentleness, self-control, etc. And the works of love which flow from faith are in loving our enemy, caring for the poor, the hungry, and the needy.

So, St. James says, faith without works is dead; that is simply saying "I believe" is meaningless unless one actually believes and hungers after righteousness--but such is impossible without faith, such is impossible without that newness of life which is found in Christ alone by the grace of God through faith. Dead faith is "I believe" but not believing--for even the demons believe and they tremble.

Faith, living faith, is faith which God gives and which imputes the righteousness of Jesus. From which springs the whole Christian life of love, believing, and repentance. Day after day, abiding in Christ and His promises.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Doug Brents

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Nothing we do leads to salvation.
That statement is not consistent with many Scriptures. Why would God tell us that repentance leads to forgiveness (salvation)(Acts 3:19) of it were not so? Why would He tell us that confession of Jesus as our Lord leads to salvation (Rom 10:9-10) of it were not so? Why would He tell us that baptism in water leads to forgiveness and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) of it were not so?
Even the faith through which we are justified and saved is the gift of God, as it says in Ephesians 2:8, "it is the gift of God, not of yourselves",
In Eph 2:8, “it” looks back at salvation itself, not faith. Faith is our commanded response to our belief in the Gospel (James 2:26).
and we know that it is the promise and word of God that gives and creates faith from what the Apostle has written in Romans 10:17, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ".
Yes, faith comes as a response to hearing the Gospel and taking action on what it commands.
Thus the one who hears has faith given to them, and thus we are the passive recipients of God's gifts.
Not so. Jesus is the author of salvation to everyone who obeys Him, not just those who hear the Gospel (Heb 5:9). The will of God is that none should perish (2 Pet 3:9), so if we were passive recipients no one would be condemned, because God would force everyone to receive His faith.

So, very much so, the one who hears and believes is saved, because the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them. That is the righteousness of faith, the imputed righteousness of Christ. It is not our righteousness, but God's righteousness.
If you delete the italicized oversimplification above, the rest of what you are saying is true. But we cannot accept passages like John 3:16 (or Rom 1:16) as complete when there are passages like Acts 3:19 that tell us there is more to receiving salvation than just believing (mental assent).

The righteousness of God revealed in the Gospel is the righteousness by which He declares us righteous on Christ's account, and we are credited righteous because we receive the righteousness of Christ as pure gift.
Again, this is true. We are credited with Christ’s righteousness because He took on our sin. But this is not done arbitrarily, or just because we give mental assent to Jesus. When you read Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14, you see that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit takes action to cut our sin (and sinful nature) from us and unite us with Jesus’ death and resurrection.

So that through Word and Sacrament God works to give and create faith, to strengthen faith, to sustain us and hold us and keep us. So that the one who has faith is born again, which happens in the water of Holy Baptism as the Lord Himself said to Nicodemus, that one needs to be born again, that is, to be born of "water and the Spirit" (John 3:3-5), which St. Paul echoes in his letter to Titus (Titus 3:5). And, again, we see the power of God's word connected with the water of Baptism when Paul writes in Ephesians 5:26 that Christ has cleansed the Church "by the washing of water with the word". It is the word connected to and comprehended in and with the water that makes baptism baptism rather than just getting wet; and for this reason St. Peter can say "this baptism which now saves you, not as the washing of dirt from the skin, but as the pledge of a new conscience before God by the power of Christ's resurrection" (1 Peter 3:21).
There is no such thing as a “sacrament”. A sacrament is something that imparts grace in and of itself. Nothing does this. Baptism does not. As you implied above, if you do not believe the Gospel, and you have not confessed the name of Jesus as your Lord, then when you are baptized you just get wet, and the Holy Spirit does not take action to save you.

Baptism, therefore, is God's work.
This is partially true. As noted above the Holy Spirit, does meet us in baptism, if we have repented and confessed Jesus as our Lord. But being immersed in water is a physical act, that man must take for the Holy Spirit to meet us there.
Even as the Lord's Supper is God's work by which we receive the body and blood of the Lord (1 Corinthians 10:16) and thus partake of His once and perfect sacrifice which is for the forgiveness of our sins. So that wherever the word is preached and wherever the Sacraments are administered, God works to give, create, and strengthen faith, through which we are freely justified by His grace.
Again, communion is not a sacrament. Yes, when you eat and drink you eat the representation of Christ’s body and blood, but if you are unworthy when you eat and drink, then you eat and drink damnation, not grace.
That this faith should not lay dormant and be choked by thistles and thorns, we must abide in Christ for He is the True Vine and we are the branches. So we abide in Christ by His word, the promises of the Gospel, which make us a new creation in Christ Jesus.
Agreed
The good works we do are the fruit of the life of faith, for as the Apostle says in Ephesians 2:10, we were created for good works in Jesus Christ, God purposed us in Christ to be doers of good works, to walk in them, to inhabit these works. The works themselves do not render us righteous, as our righteousness is only the righteousness of Jesus Christ given to us as pure gift. But the good works are the product of that life in Christ, and the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, holding and keeping us in Christ through faith, now works to conform us to the image of Christ, that we should imitate Him, live as Him, pick up our cross and follow Him--to the love of God and neighbor. And so the fruit of the Spirit is love, peace, joy, gentleness, self-control, etc. And the works of love which flow from faith are in loving our enemy, caring for the poor, the hungry, and the needy.
Very true. And these are the works that “flow from” having received salvation. But repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism are acts that Scripture says “lead to” receiving salvation.
So, St. James says, faith without works is dead; that is simply saying "I believe" is meaningless unless one actually believes and hungers after righteousness--but such is impossible without faith, such is impossible without that newness of life which is found in Christ alone by the grace of God through faith. Dead faith is "I believe" but not believing--for even the demons believe and they tremble.
Notice the timing in Eph 2:8-9. Salvation is received as grace (a gift) though faith. So if you don’t have faith first, you don’t get the gift. And faith is rolled up in those things that Scripture says “lead to” salvation.
 
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ViaCrucis

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That statement is not consistent with many Scriptures. Why would God tell us that repentance leads to forgiveness (salvation)(Acts 3:19) of it were not so? Why would He tell us that confession of Jesus as our Lord leads to salvation (Rom 10:9-10) of it were not so? Why would He tell us that baptism in water leads to forgiveness and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) of it were not so?

In Eph 2:8, “it” looks back at salvation itself, not faith. Faith is our commanded response to our belief in the Gospel (James 2:26).

Yes, faith comes as a response to hearing the Gospel and taking action on what it commands.

Not so. Jesus is the author of salvation to everyone who obeys Him, not just those who hear the Gospel (Heb 5:9). The will of God is that none should perish (2 Pet 3:9), so if we were passive recipients no one would be condemned, because God would force everyone to receive His faith.


If you delete the italicized oversimplification above, the rest of what you are saying is true. But we cannot accept passages like John 3:16 (or Rom 1:16) as complete when there are passages like Acts 3:19 that tell us there is more to receiving salvation than just believing (mental assent).


Again, this is true. We are credited with Christ’s righteousness because He took on our sin. But this is not done arbitrarily, or just because we give mental assent to Jesus. When you read Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14, you see that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit takes action to cut our sin (and sinful nature) from us and unite us with Jesus’ death and resurrection.


There is no such thing as a “sacrament”. A sacrament is something that imparts grace in and of itself. Nothing does this. Baptism does not. As you implied above, if you do not believe the Gospel, and you have not confessed the name of Jesus as your Lord, then when you are baptized you just get wet, and the Holy Spirit does not take action to save you.


This is partially true. As noted above the Holy Spirit, does meet us in baptism, if we have repented and confessed Jesus as our Lord. But being immersed in water is a physical act, that man must take for the Holy Spirit to meet us there.

Again, communion is not a sacrament. Yes, when you eat and drink you eat the representation of Christ’s body and blood, but if you are unworthy when you eat and drink, then you eat and drink damnation, not grace.

Agreed

Very true. And these are the works that “flow from” having received salvation. But repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism are acts that Scripture says “lead to” receiving salvation.

Notice the timing in Eph 2:8-9. Salvation is received as grace (a gift) though faith. So if you don’t have faith first, you don’t get the gift. And faith is rolled up in those things that Scripture says “lead to” salvation.

If I were to believe as you do then I would be able to take credit and thus the statement "this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, so that none may boast" is negated.

Note that in Ephesians 2:8 it says "by grace you have been saved through faith", so what is the gift of God in this statement? The Apostle does not say "salvation" as a noun, but says "saved" the verb. Gramatically, it is the entire clause that Paul identifies as the gift. The whole work of God is thus: "by grace you have been saved through faith". The faith is not my work, but God's gift and work in me.

I do not come before God and offer my faith as a good work which God rewards by counting me as having merited salvation. Rather, I stand naked, ashamed, a sinner and with nothing before God, and it is God entirely out of His own loving kindness, His own goodness, who comes down to me--a wretch and sinner--and says "I forgive you" and giving me faith now robes me in the righteousness of His only-begotten Son.

I have done nothing, God has done everything.

As far as the word "sacrament" is concerned, the word is simply from the Latin "sacramentum", "a sacred thing" or "a sacred pledge". In Greek they are called mysterion, "mysteries", for these are means and things of God whereby God reveals Himself, shows Himself, and comes to us in His grace to work and act upon us. They are called sacraments for here is God's promise and pledge to us by His word. As St. Augustine would say, where God's word is connected to and comprehended with the material element, it is a sacrament; and elsewhere that sacraments are "Verbum visibilis" or "visible word". God's word connected to and comprehended with a visible, material element.

If baptism were just water, then it would mean nothing. But that this water, and not just any water, but this specific water used for this purpose, has God's own word and promise connected to it. And it is because of this that it is rightly called a sacrament, a holy and sacred mystery of God by which He says He graciously acts and moves to accomplish His good for us. And what is this good for us in baptism? That our sins are washed away, that we are united to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that we are born again and are a new creation in Christ by the power of the Spirit.

You may not like the word sacrament, but it is an appropriate word to speak of these holy, sacred, and divine mysteries which God has instituted and given for our benefit as means of grace.

I do not come to the waters of Holy Baptism with my own good and offer it to God; I come to the waters of Holy Baptism as I did when I entered this world--naked and full of sin. And it is God who comes down and meets me, wretch and sinner that I am, to declare me free, forgiven, and justified on Christ's account.

I am declared just because Christ is righteous and I have received righteousness as a pure gift through faith, faith which God works and creates in me through this holy and precious Sacrament. His Sacrament.

Neither do I receive a mere "representation" of Christ's body and blood in the Holy Supper, it is here the very and actual body and blood of Christ, for He has declared "This is My body" and the Apostle has said we partake of the very body and blood of Christ in the bread and the wine (1 Corinthians 10:16).

If it were a mere representation then it could not be said that the one who does not discern the body of Christ sins against the body and blood of Christ by coming to the Table unworthily. If the Table were mere symbol, and not something real, then it would be mere ritual rather than actual means of grace, an actual konoinia with Christ's flesh and blood as the Apostle says.

So, again, I repeat, on the basis of Holy Scripture and the universal confession of the Christian Church, that here is Christ saving us, justifying us, and granting and giving and working faith: Word and Sacrament.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Doug Brents

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If I were to believe as you do then I would be able to take credit and thus the statement "this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, so that none may boast" is negated.
Not at all. As an example, if you earn just $1 per year and I give you a gift of $1,000,000,000 wrapped up in a box with a bow; can you take credit for the gift because you untied the bow and unwrapped the gift? Not at all. There is no way for you to have earned that much in 1000 lifetimes, nor does unwrapping the box “earn” the gift.

Note that in Ephesians 2:8 it says "by grace you have been saved through faith", so what is the gift of God in this statement? The Apostle does not say "salvation" as a noun, but says "saved" the verb. Gramatically, it is the entire clause that Paul identifies as the gift. The whole work of God is thus: "by grace you have been saved through faith". The faith is not my work, but God's gift and work in me.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;”
What is “this” that is not of yourselves? “Saved”. Salvation. Salvation is the gift of God. Grace is nothing more than another word for gift. Faith, as defined by Heb 11:1, is substance and evidence, and as James says, without action our faith is dead (thus worthless), because it is by our actions that our faith is made perfect (complete).

I do not come before God and offer my faith as a good work which God rewards by counting me as having merited salvation. Rather, I stand naked, ashamed, a sinner and with nothing before God, and it is God entirely out of His own loving kindness, His own goodness, who comes down to me--a wretch and sinner--and says "I forgive you" and giving me faith now robes me in the righteousness of His only-begotten Son.
Everything here, except that God gives you faith, is exactly right. We do come to God with nothing, and we stand before Him as His enemies, unworthy of His attention, let alone His salvation. Yet while we were His enemies, He sent His Son to die for us. We don’t deserve it, and we didn’t do anything to earn it, yet He gave humanity that gift. And all He demands is that we have faith (belief in Jesus that causes actions of obedience).

If baptism were just water, then it would mean nothing.
Where do you get that from?
But that this water, and not just any water, but this specific water used for this purpose,
Again, where in Scripture do you find this? I find that the Ethiopian Eunuch found whatever water was there that they were passing and was baptized in it. And the Corinthian Jailer was baptized in whatever water was available “that same hour of the night”.

Neither do I receive a mere "representation" of Christ's body and blood in the Holy Supper, it is here the very and actual body and blood of Christ, for He has declared "This is My body" and the Apostle has said we partake of the very body and blood of Christ in the bread and the wine (1 Corinthians 10:16).
I see. You have never heard of metaphors? The wine is not blood (the Old Covenant was still in effect at the Last Supper, and eating (drinking) blood was a sin under the Old Covenant), it represents His blood. The bread is not His flesh (we are not cannibals, cannibalism is a sin), it represents His flesh.
If it were a mere representation then it could not be said that the one who does not discern the body of Christ sins against the body and blood of Christ by coming to the Table unworthily. If the Table were mere symbol, and not something real, then it would be mere ritual rather than actual means of grace, an actual konoinia with Christ's flesh and blood as the Apostle says.
Yes, it can easily be said that a representation can bring damnation if it is not treated with respect. The Tabernacle, and then the Temple, were shadows, representations, of the reality in Heaven. And if anyone other than the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies, and he only on one day of the year, they would die. Yes, it is not only possible, but also factual, that the bread and wine are representations that if partaken in an unworthy manner brings damnation to the partaker.
 
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