Ayn Rand Poll

Do you think the philosophy of Ayn Rand has had a positive impact on this country?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Who's Ayn Rand?


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Thekla

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Sounds like a good choice. :thumbsup:

I will point out though that last night Glenn Beck presented perhaps his best portrayal ever of Barack Obama ... in Obama's own words. www.gbtv.com They have free two week introductory subscriptions. ;) (At least last I knew they did.)
I'll take a look - or a hear ...


The nice thing about a "free market" is that people receive consequences from their actions. Call it economic justice ... though, most assuredly, not "economic justice" in the perverse terminology of the far left.

Well, yes and no. The only examples we really have of a truly free market right now at least on a large scale (Libor, derivatives) all demonstrate recklessness, collusion, and fraud. Consequences yet ? Not for the large players, at least in any meaningful way. But for those of who have no involvement, many have been deeply and negatively affected.
Again, in a "free market" one receives the consequences of their actions.

Again, there are huge downsides. For example, those who have more power are able to affect, even manipulate those who have less power. Negative consequences for those with much power tend to be in the long term. As an illustration, those with greater expertise can and do easily manipulate those with less. It is impossible to be expert in everything, so many become sitting ducks in areas outside their expertise.
Just consider Hitler. He, most assuredly, reaped the consequences of his actions, though it seems unfortunate that so many others received consequences as well ... though it can be argued that many simply received the consequences of their own inactions. I'm not sure how that relates to Ayn Rand ... but it seemed worth stating.
There are many who haven't reaped the consequences of their actions, though their actions have fundamentally (negatively) affected the lives of those not directly involved.

Perhaps Ayn Rand is not a voice you need to pay attention to, Thekla. That certainly doesn't make her contribution to society any less valuable though.

I don't find her contribution valuable. From what I understand, her understanding of the individual is a fundamentally irrational idea.

She saw a great evil ... and spoke loudly and articulately against it. She was not silent as so many under Hitler were ... to their own chagrin as it turned out.

Many noted and spoke out loudly and articulately against Hitler - even to the point of giving their lives to do so - yet their existence and thinking was primarily ethical. I've not read much of her, but from what I have read, she seems to envision a sort of "super-man". And certainly, Hitler was self-serving indeed, and in the market place of ideas was able to convince others to act his own selfish ends.
Good. You see it clearly in retrospect.
Of course. The ethical center is what informs the expression and the outcome. So to uncover the ethos of something is essential to discovering potential outcomes, negative or positive.

Greenspan ran the Fed from the "lap" of Rand - we have some empirical evidence of outcome. In fact, throughout history we have numerous examples of putting self first, and the effect on a grand scale. And even with an ethical "ideology", distorted self involved individuals can create great havoc in the world.

Did you see it as an issue when Bush was in power? Do you see it as an issue under Obama?

It's always an issue wherever there is power; it will always be an issue. In all things and in all times, vigilance is in order.

Ahh ... you speak of national socialism, then? :confused:

No, not socialism or communism; these are not the same as working in the public interest. I am referring to acting with integrity and honor. My uncle, an architect who was persistently attacked and had his career on the line for refusing to give the go-ahead on projects that did not serve the people they were being built for. My little brother who lost his job for refusing to pass permits where safety issues were not addressed. My great grandfather, who gave the patent rights to an early electric company so that the profits from his invention could help bring electricity to more communities. My great aunt who alienated her friends by befriending an occupier, and risked her life by using this connection to bring food into Athens during the starving times. Her brother and his wife who risked their lives to teach English, her sister who risked her life by growing food and hiding a radio. My father, who was attacked and threatened by a local government for the good of teh senior citizens in our community.

True unselfishness, in the public interest. This is the standard I was raised with, and strive to pass on to my children. This is what I understand true patriotism to be.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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Rand represents one of the worst philosophies I've seen. It is one of the most arrogant and amoralistic set of ideals I've seen. Altruism is evil. Selfishness is good.

One of the more ironic things is that if a group of people broke off from society like in Atlas Shrugged, Rand would have been left out in the cold. Of course she was too arrogant to see that.

Thanks, I appreciate your opinion. I tend to agree. It boggles my mind how Republicans as a party known for "conservative Christian values" could have ever latched onto her philosophy and purported it as something desirable or good.
 
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Sketcher

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As a personal philosophy there is none more base than living life entirely for the benefit of one's self. It's also completely opposed to the teachings of Jesus, if you're into that kinda thing. Basically the opposite of what Jesus taught.

I agree that Objectivism is against the teachings of Jesus, and that is why I am also against it. So is Communism, in part because the rhetoric feigns selflessness but is used as a means to control individuals.

In short, I agree with Rand's criticism of Communists in The Fountainhead. I also disagree with the extreme selfishness she upholds as positive, and with her ridiculously black-and-white view of the world.
 
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SPB1987

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No more than the fact that we have the inspiration and catalyst for millions of deaths (Communism/Socialism/Marxism) being held up on a pedestal by many in the Democratic party today.

It's easy to demagogue.

I think he was referring to the self sacrificing nature that many in our military have. If we as a society place the individual above all else(even to the detriment of society) why would anyone be willing to die to protect our country and everything that it means to be an American.

I support individualism to an extent but am unsure as to what my opinion on Ayn Rand really is. I do not view selfishness as a virtue.
 
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Rion

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I think he was referring to the self sacrificing nature that many in our military have. If we as a society place the individual above self why would anyone be willing to die to protect our country and everything that it means to be an American.

I support individualism to an extent but am unsure as to what my opinion on Ayn Rand really is. I do not view selfishness as a virtue.

Dunno. It seems to me that he's trying to tie Objectivism to the Republican and Libertarians and then be like "See? It's not Christian to be like that."

If not, my apologies, but I've been through so many such attempts, here and elsewhere.
 
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SPB1987

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Dunno. It seems to me that he's trying to tie Objectivism to the Republican and Libertarians and then be like "See? It's not Christian to be like that."

If not, my apologies, but I've been through so many such attempts, here and elsewhere.

Sure, some people on here do that. Many assume that not agreeing with the federal government getting involved in welfare means that you must not care about poor or disabled. That is just unfortunately how life is. Our actions speak much louder than words....except on an internet message board, lol.
 
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NightHawkeye

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I'll take a look - or a hear ...
Try it, you'll like it ...
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Well, yes and no. The only examples we really have of a truly free market right now at least on a large scale (Libor, derivatives) all demonstrate recklessness, collusion, and fraud.
LOL ... I agree those demonstrate recklessness, collusion and fraud, but I disagree that they have much to do with a free market.

In the Libor scandal, in particular, it seems that multiple governments were involved and one of the principals pointed at the Fed's involvement as well. ^_^
Consequences yet ? Not for the large players, at least in any meaningful way. But for those of who have no involvement, many have been deeply and negatively affected.
Smaller government would seem to be a part of the solution. Remove the ability for any one individual or organization to control the market.
Again, there are huge downsides. For example, those who have more power are able to affect, even manipulate those who have less power. Negative consequences for those with much power tend to be in the long term.
And why is that so wrong? Consider that when a big company can be adversely affected overnight, very bad things often result. Big corporations simply tend to fade away when market forces are allowed to take their toll. Big companies tend to be inefficient in a number of ways.
As an illustration, those with greater expertise can and do easily manipulate those with less. It is impossible to be expert in everything, so many become sitting ducks in areas outside their expertise.
Have I mentioned that character matters? Conduct business with people and corporations you deem worthy of your business.

More importantly, is it government's job to protect everyone from everything? At the moment we seem to have a nanny state which is prone to all manner of unproductive activities.
There are many who haven't reaped the consequences of their actions, though their actions have fundamentally (negatively) affected the lives of those not directly involved.
I heard this morning that John Corzine and MF Global will not face charges ... even though they've admitted to dipping into customer accounts illegally. :confused:

How does that work ... when they lose $700 million, or $1.6 Billion, or $7.2 Billion ... a staggering loss? At best, it would seem they were criminally negligent ... at worst, they engaged in outright fraud.

That's another situation I can't reconcile as anything other than crony capitalism ... Democrat Jon Corzine, ex-governor and ex-senator from New Jersey redeems get-out-of-jail free card. :doh:
I don't find her contribution valuable. From what I understand, her understanding of the individual is a fundamentally irrational idea.
That's OK. The basis of her theory is that acting in one's self-interest is largely coincident with society's interest as well. It's not a perfect theory, LOL, but our modern version of crony capitalism has accomplished quite a number of amazing things.
Many noted and spoke out loudly and articulately against Hitler - even to the point of giving their lives to do so - yet their existence and thinking was primarily ethical. I've not read much of her, but from what I have read, she seems to envision a sort of "super-man". And certainly, Hitler was self-serving indeed, and in the market place of ideas was able to convince others to act his own selfish ends.

Of course. The ethical center is what informs the expression and the outcome. So to uncover the ethos of something is essential to discovering potential outcomes, negative or positive.
I'm all in favor of morality, Thekla. I just don't happen to believe that morality can be legislated. People find morality through various paths. :cool:
Greenspan ran the Fed from the "lap" of Rand - we have some empirical evidence of outcome. In fact, throughout history we have numerous examples of putting self first, and the effect on a grand scale. And even with an ethical "ideology", distorted self involved individuals can create great havoc in the world.
No argument. I'm no fan of the Fed, either. ;)
It's always an issue wherever there is power; it will always be an issue. In all things and in all times, vigilance is in order.
:thumbsup:
No, not socialism or communism; these are not the same as working in the public interest. I am referring to acting with integrity and honor. My uncle, an architect who was persistently attacked and had his career on the line for refusing to give the go-ahead on projects that did not serve the people they were being built for. My little brother who lost his job for refusing to pass permits where safety issues were not addressed. My great grandfather, who gave the patent rights to an early electric company so that the profits from his invention could help bring electricity to more communities. My great aunt who alienated her friends by befriending an occupier, and risked her life by using this connection to bring food into Athens during the starving times. Her brother and his wife who risked their lives to teach English, her sister who risked her life by growing food and hiding a radio. My father, who was attacked and threatened by a local government for the good of teh senior citizens in our community.

True unselfishness, in the public interest. This is the standard I was raised with, and strive to pass on to my children. This is what I understand true patriotism to be.
:thumbsup:

Sometimes, it is necessary to stand. I'm coming to a conclusion that every generation of Americans has found it necessary to stand. It's what Americans do. :)
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Ortho Cat said:
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Jn 15:13

This is altruism par excellence! This is what Jesus did for everyone and is the entire model for the Christian faith... :doh:

It was also an expression of God's wrath and His hatred of sin. I'm sure you would that it doesn't follow that wrath or hatred is always good.
 
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Thekla

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LOL ... I agree those demonstrate recklessness, collusion and fraud, but I disagree that they have much to do with a free market.

Given the effective lack of regulation (it's there, but not used) in general, and the derivatives market which is completely unregulated in particular, and the number of "self-regulation by honor" (LIBOR, private MF Global auditors, private Peregrine Auditors), it's pretty free. Add to this that Zerohedge estimates the return on fraud to be(iirc) 5:1 (5$ generated by fraud = 1$ fine/settlement without admission of guilt), it's free from fraud oversight and profits handsomely from its fraud.

In the Libor scandal, in particular, it seems that multiple governments were involved and one of the principals pointed at the Fed's involvement as well. ^_^

UK possibly ... do you mean Mr. Geithner's little "London, uh, there may be a problem" letter ? Don't forget, the Fed is an unregulated private institution. How can we even accurately assess what it's doing or if it can do better, whether to keep or can it without transparency ?

Smaller government would seem to be a part of the solution. Remove the ability for any one individual or organization to control the market.

It may, or smaller govt. may just leave us where we are now. It's not that I don't agree that our legislators are "bought" (campaign funding, lobbyists). It's that vis a vis Wall St., the govt is operating essentially as small or non-existant governance.

And why is that so wrong? Consider that when a big company can be adversely affected overnight, very bad things often result. Big corporations simply tend to fade away when market forces are allowed to take their toll. Big companies tend to be inefficient in a number of ways.

They can be inefficient, but small business - especially start-ups - are more inefficient (thus they are largely responsible for job growth). Some fade away, but many diversify and remarkably strong and influential. My concern is that we have a government large enough - or more accurately strong enough - to fight back against large concerns that are - efficient or inefficient - too strong. I'm not against business or Capitalism at all ! But too-strong big business can have the same outcome as crony capitalism (mill towns, mine towns, etc. of the 19th and 20th c.)

And size does matter - consider Monsanto. They have been able to drive small farms out of business by bringing charges - small concerns get bankrupted before they get to court. Ie, there is no defense against a huge legal war chest even if you're innocent. (And yes, Monsanto has connections from the FDA, to the Supreme Court, to Congress, to Romney, and Obama.)
If you're big enough, you can buy govt, or just roll over it.

Have I mentioned that character matters? Conduct business with people and corporations you deem worthy of your business.
I agree ! We buy our food from small growers and privately owned groceries (3 in all), and have always shopped whenever possible at small businesses. It's a little more expensive sometimes, but cheaper in the long run (we support our community and decent people ...)

More importantly, is it government's job to protect everyone from everything? At the moment we seem to have a nanny state which is prone to all manner of unproductive activities.

I think we need a big re-set, to be honest. I don't think they should protect us from everything, but some things are so huge they effect us whether or not we have any interaction with them. So, for example, on the Raw Milk issue - like GMOs, label them. That should be enough. (One of our grocers had to scramble after the crack-down on an Amish concern). Otoh, I would prefer that we maintain govt. food inspection (its moving to each processor doing their own inspection, which has the potential for serious problems). Where govt. does have the oversite, fund it adequately for the job.

I heard this morning that John Corzine and MF Global will not face charges ... even though they've admitted to dipping into customer accounts illegally. :confused:

How does that work ... when they lose $700 million, or $1.6 Billion, or $7.2 Billion ... a staggering loss? At best, it would seem they were criminally negligent ... at worst, they engaged in outright fraud.

It's outrageous, and it gets worse.
JP Morgan Chase happened to have about that much money appear in a London account at the time of MFG's collapse. JPM was MFGs main line of overnight credit at that time. It seems that MFG "hypothecated" customer funds as assets against the line of credit; JPM balked on the line of credit, and retained or clawed the hypothecated assets. As JPM has a huge amount of outstanding derivatives, they could have been protecting themselves - or maybe just gaming the system.

But unfortunately, no-one seems to care. And where were the MFG regulators (private) ? The regulators (private) at Peregrine weren't even authenticating the deposits that Peregrine was reporting !

That's another situation I can't reconcile as anything other than crony capitalism ... Democrat Jon Corzine, ex-governor and ex-senator from New Jersey redeems get-out-of-jail free card. :doh:

Basically, they all got out of jail free - every last player - and took home a bonus to boot. If you haven't seen the movie "Inside Job", I would recommend it. (I made our kids watch it for homeschool.)

That's OK. The basis of her theory is that acting in one's self-interest is largely coincident with society's interest as well. It's not a perfect theory, LOL, but our modern version of crony capitalism has accomplished quite a number of amazing things.

What concerns me is the (often invisible) cost to human lives - and the dim value it puts on human life. If we all have selfishness as a mantra, we risk trust, and by extension love. One can't trust if there's at the center of ethics the notion we're likely being gamed, because it's okay to game others - and every system involving more than one human being must rely to some extent on trust.

I'm all in favor of morality, Thekla. I just don't happen to believe that morality can be legislated. People find morality through various paths. :cool:

It can't be legislated (except possibly negatively), but there is a central role in human development for the usefulness of standards. We won't all reach them, but the standards themselves, as expectations, guide to some extent our ability to behave morally, or to willingly mold our behavior to some standard. Objectivism can't be objective because it's standard of measurement is personal.

No argument. I'm no fan of the Fed, either. ;)
:) I respect Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders for their efforts. An 'odd couple', but a good example of what could happen if people across the spectrum could find common ground on some issues. I saw an interview with Mark Meckler - and I think he has it spot on. We need to stop arguing over superficial labels and come together to do the work that needs to be done !

(Maybe I just like him because I have no party and can't even figure out whether I'm conservative or liberal ^_^)

Sometimes, it is necessary to stand. I'm coming to a conclusion that every generation of Americans has found it necessary to stand. It's what Americans do. :)

This for sure is one of those times. People on the left and the right and in the middle are ticked, because we all know something is deeply wrong. We need to stop looking to our politicians for answers - because they're supposed to work for the people of this country !
 
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Ortho_Cat

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It was also an expression of God's wrath and His hatred of sin. I'm sure you would that it doesn't follow that wrath or hatred is always good.

I disagree with that theology. but this is outside the scope of this thread...
 
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Paradoxum

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Ayn Rands philosophy is sickening. How disgusting it is nearly beyond words. Luckily the Republicans haven't gone that far yet. Lets just hope they don't make her the Marx of the right wing.

It was also an expression of God's wrath and His hatred of sin. I'm sure you would that it doesn't follow that wrath or hatred is always good.

"Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
 
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Received

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Actually, now that I actually think about it, Ayn is a pretty good case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder -- the thin skinned, non-psychopath kind. She could take little criticism: there's a great video of William F. Buckley on Charlie Rose almost ten years back, where he laughingly spells out how Ayn would call every person she knew in the state to make sure he wasn't there at social gatherings with her because he sicked Whittaker Chambers on her via a staggering critique of Atlas Shugged. She had virtually zero empathy. Actually, just look up the list yourself in the DSM-IV-TR:

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
  • Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
  • Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
  • Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
  • Requires excessive admiration
  • Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
  • Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
  • Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
  • Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
  • Shows arrogant, haughty behavior or attitudes.

If not five, it's darn sure close.

Is it ironic or not that a poster child for the GOP is a (near) Narcissist?
 
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NightHawkeye

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Is it ironic or not that a poster child for the GOP is a (near) Narcissist?
LOL ... considering our current narcissist-in-chief, that's a highly ironic statement. :doh:

FinalIronyMeter.gif
 
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Thanks, I appreciate your opinion. I tend to agree. It boggles my mind how Republicans as a party known for "conservative Christian values" could have ever latched onto her philosophy and purported it as something desirable or good.

There is more to conservatism that Christians. One does not need to be a Christian to be a conservative or a Republican.
 
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Creech

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There is more to conservatism that Christians. One does not need to be a Christian to be a conservative or a Republican.

In America, a conservative needs to at least have respect for religion and religious morals/values. Ayn Rand did not seem to have respect for any of those.
 
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grasping the after wind

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i wasn't the person who brought up the notion of "good men" (I assume by men he mean't people). I was merely using his framework in asking him if he considered her to be "good" given his criteria for what that might be.

Fair enough, and I wasn't attempting to criticize, only expressing my own view of the subject.

so you don't consider those quotes that you mentioned ego-centric? what about making ourselves in our own image and everything we are and have coming from our minds? Doesn't that contradict with your Christian worldview? :confused:
Are the three quotes I mentioned ego centric? Perhaps, but being ego centric is part of the human condition not something Ayn Rand has cornered the market on , nor does her philosophy stand out for it's egocentricity more so than others that I have been exposed to.Though her egocentrism is fairly openly acknowledged and embraced by her while others try to disguise their egocentrism by citing a mythical collective welfare that will be served through the granting of tyrannical power to those that are the more enlightened of the adherents to their philosophy (mainly themselves and their compatriots).

It seems to me that you are not dealing with the quotes I pulled from your earlier post but rather your own interpretation of the philosophy behind those quotes. The one quote did not say making ourselves but rather making the world in our own image and it is a factual statement nothing more and certainly not contradictory to any worldview that valures the truth. If man ( humanity if you prefer a less sexist word.) attempts to and somewhat succeeds in shaping the world in his(its) own image that is simply human nature doing its thing . If Ayn Rand approves of this, she is hardly alone in that every political philosophy I am aware of also approves. The other quote about the "reasoning mind" is simply a romanticized way of saying that only the human ability to reason allows humanity to be in the position that they are in, in the world. I don't find that to be especially hard to tolerate. Rand was an atheist after all I would not expect her to attribute anything to God. Although Rand was an atheist, one must be looking to be insulted to take this as a bash against Christianity. As I said the other quotes I find distasteful as well as disagreeing with them this last one I just disagree with the philosophy that totally approves of it but do not find particularly distasteful. Ayn Rand's atheism leads her to a path that makes her wish to glorify achievement over all and to see self interest to the exclusion of any compassion as moral. Atheism does not have to lead in that direction but IMO there is no reason to find that direction any less reasonable as a way of life for an atheist than one that glorifies a mythical collective welfare and advocates a pursuit of a, so far, very elusive eutopia of world peace and harmony brought about by an iron fisted ruling elite. As a Christian , I disagree with both philosophies, but as an American, I am inclined to let them both compete in the arena of ideas with my own philosophy and any others with the hope that whoever has the better argument can persuade the majority to their side.
 
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