Avoiding the Mark of the beast

[jgr]

He did my friend.

Verse 3..............."and THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION".

John 17:12....
"While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

2 Thess. 2:4.........
"who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.".

Daniel 9:24............
""And he (The A/C) will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

The "he" who "letteth" (restrains) in v. 7 (the one I copied/quoted) is the son of perdition?

 

[doctorwho29]

I do not believe that we will know at all. IF 2 Thess. 2:3 is correct, the church will be Raptured THEN the A/C will be revealed.

That is the most popular theory and what makes sense to me. However, I try not to be dogmatic about these things and just trust God to work it all out accurately and according to His plan.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

2 Thess. 2:3-10..............
"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

The A/C will not be known to the world until the Church is removed according to the Scripture above.

In the above verses, “that day” is referring to—this is Paul writing to the Thessalonians in his first epistle to the Thessalonians 5:1, he says, “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they say peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them,” and so forth. So, this is the day Paul is talking about, the Day of the Lord, which I believe begins with the rapture of the church.

I can not make you or anyone else believe that but there it is and for me personally it makes perfect sense.

I believe he is talking about two things, the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto him. The gathering is the Rapture, the coming is the second coming, and we have to distinguish between the two. At the Rapture, Christ comes for his church; at the second coming he comes for Isreal! At the Rapture, he takes his saints to heaven, the church; at the second coming he brings them with him from heaven. Zechariah 14, very clearly says that when his feet touch the Mount of Olives, that’s the second coming; at the Rapture he catches us up in the air. He doesn’t come to this earth.

As what the "Seal" of God is in Rev. 9:4.

John 6:27......
"" Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

2 Cor 1:22......
" Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Eph 1:13 .......
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise".

Eph 4:30..........
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

It seems to me that these verses dicate a figurative seal, not a physical seal.

We also know that Satan copies whatever God does. It is clear to ME that the mark of the BEAST will be a "physical" mark of all who take it.

For a long time now I have understood that the mark is going to be something like the "UPC" Bar Code. That kind of mark allows for buying and selling and the tracking of merchandise and PEOPLE.

So you believe that GOD would not reveal to us through the printed word (prophecy) what the mark of the beast or the seal of God is. How are we to know then? (as I posted in the forum before how can you know what the mark is if you do not know who or what is the beast. The mark must represent the beast) How can a UPC type code represent the beast?

You say that the mark of the beast will be physical but the seal of God is not, that does not appear to be a good counterfeit of the seal of God, because one can be seen and the other not.

I believe that the scripture and history teach that neither is physical as they both deal with WORSHIP as this verse says
Rev. 14:9........
"And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image.....

 

[Original Happy Camper]

That is the most popular theory

And that is what it is a theory not supported from the Bible.

 

[doctorwho29]

And that is what it is a theory not supported from the Bible.

Well Thessalonians does imply a Rapture. It could be read another way as well.

Also how do we know the seal of God isn't physical? A book series I love had the 144,000 priests of God sealed on their forehead with lamb's blood in either the word "Yeshua" or "Yahweh"

 

[Bible2+]

Major1 said in post #296:

So, this is the day Paul is talking about, the Day of the Lord, which I believe begins with the rapture of the church.

Note the future Day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the Church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Major1 said in post #296:

At the Rapture, he takes his saints to heaven . . .

Do you mean the rapture will take Christians into the third heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note no scripture requires Christians will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus Christ at His future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the Church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and the obedient part of the Church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the Church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to physically reign on the earth with Him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the Church will live on a New Earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

 

[Major1]

So you believe that GOD would not reveal to us through the printed word (prophecy) what the mark of the beast or the seal of God is. How are we to know then? (as I posted in the forum before how can you know what the mark is if you do not know who or what is the beast. The mark must represent the beast) How can a UPC type code represent the beast?

You say that the mark of the beast will be physical but the seal of God is not, that does not appear to be a good counterfeit of the seal of God, because one can be seen and the other not.

I believe that the scripture and history teach that neither is physical as they both deal with WORSHIP as this verse says
Rev. 14:9........
"And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image.....

Again..........we are not supposed to know my friend.

2 Thess. 2:3 clearly says that the A/C will be revealed AFTER the Rapture removes all believers.

I did not say the mark of the beast is physical. That is what the Scriptures say my friend.

As I listed for you the Scriptures which tells us that the seal of God is simply receiving the Holy Spirit when we come to believe in Christ Jesus.

Rev. 13:16-18..................
"And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand, or on their forehead, and he provides that no one should be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name."

How else could God have words this so as to allow us the understand that the mark is a physical mark????

If you choose to reject this then you are free to do so. To me however it seems very clear.

 

[Major1]

Note the future Day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the Church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).



Do you mean the rapture will take Christians into the third heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note no scripture requires Christians will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus Christ at His future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the Church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and the obedient part of the Church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the Church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to physically reign on the earth with Him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the Church will live on a New Earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

I mean exactly what the Scriptures say. The Rapture will remove all born again believers, they will have glorified bodies and will forevermore be with the Lord.

If you choose to rationalize that the believers will only be in the clouds, then so be it.

I do not accept that at all.

Jesus assended to heaven to be with the Father. Jesus ascended into heaven, meaning a literal bodily return to heaven. Many onlookers saw and bore witness on that day of Jesus's ascension. As a cloud began to hid Jesus as he ascended, two angels appeared to the disciples and promised that Christ would "come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

John 7:33...........
Then Jesus said, "I am only with you for a short time. Then I'm going to the One who sent Me.

John 14:1-4..........
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going THERE to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jesus went to the Father's house which is heaven, the throne room of God. IF you choose to believe that is somewhere in the clouds, good for you. That is not what I believe.

Jesus, according to the Scriptures assended to the Father's house, sat down at His right hand and we, when Raptured will join Him in heaven, the Father's house......HEAVEN.

1 Thess.4:17..........
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

Yes, we will meet Him in the air because He does not return to the earth for another 7 years. He comes at the Rapture to gather His children and we come together in the air and then proceed to the Father's house just as did Jesus at His assention.

 

[Major1]

That is the most popular theory and what makes sense to me. However, I try not to be dogmatic about these things and just trust God to work it all out accurately and according to His plan.

I agree completely with you. The fact is ..... we do not know. We can only read, believe and hope that the Scriptures are true.

To me, having studied this for many, many years, the pre-tribulation Rapture, then 7 years of Tribulation, followed by Armageddon and then 1000 years of Christ's rule allows all the prophetic verses to fit perfectly together without any work, or spiritualization or rationalization.

 

[Major1]

The "he" who "letteth" (restrains) in v. 7 (the one I copied/quoted) is the son of perdition?

NO!......The one who restrains is the Holy Spirit.

The son of perdition is the Anti-Christ.

 

[jgr]

NO!......The one who restrains is the Holy Spirit.

The son of perdition is the Anti-Christ.

OK thanks...why didn't Paul name Him explicitly? You wouldn't expect Paul to be obscure about the Holy Spirit.

 

[Major1]

OK thanks...why didn't Paul name Him explicitly? You wouldn't expect Paul to be obscure about the Holy Spirit.

Again.....I do not think that he was obscure at all.

2 Thess. 2:7-8............
"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."

Who else could it possibly be that restrains evil?????

The government?????
The Church?????
The Police????

NO!......It can only be the Holy Spirit. He is clear and it is our responsibility to understand the deeper things of Scripture.

 

[jgr]

Again.....I do not think that he was obscure at all.

2 Thess. 2:7-8............
"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."

Who else could it possibly be that restrains evil?????

The government?????
The Church?????
The Police????

NO!......It can only be the Holy Spirit. He is clear and it is our responsibility to understand the deeper things of Scripture.

Actually, the early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer, forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one, and the ensuing apostasy. John Chrysostom, an apologist of that era, explains why Paul did not explicitly reveal the identity of the restrainer:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

History subsequently confirmed that diagnosis.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And that is what it is a theory not supported from the Bible.

The whole world THRIVES on theories -
if there were no theories, and only God's Way, (as in heaven),
there'd be no pharmacy,
no war,
no injections of poisons into infants,
no law enforcement needed,
no political parites,
no freemasonry,
no elections, (no voiting),
no pollution,
no adultery,
no divorce,
no theft,
no oppression, (no one , not one hungry, thirsty nor homeless or without clothes),
etc etc etc .....

oh, and of course no scholars and no lawyers and no religious leaders....(like ones so predominant today)

 

[Major1]

Actually, the early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer, forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one, and the ensuing apostasy. John Chrysostom, an apologist of that era, explains why Paul did not explicitly reveal the identity of the restrainer:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

History subsequently confirmed that diagnosis.

I may be wrong here but it seems to me that what you are proposing sounds familiar. A 7th Day Adventist by the name of Leroy E. Frome I believe postulated much the same thing you are saying many years ago in a book named......."The Prophetic Faith of our Fathers".. which is a "Historic" outlook on prophecy.

To me I can not accept your thesis. Why would Paul over the years be so forward and fearless all of a sudden be afraid to say what God laid upon his heart to say.

I believe he said exactly what needed to be said and the "He" is the restrainer which is the Holy Spirit.

You of course are free to believe as you wish but for me the easiest thing for me to accept is what is actually what was said and not what I think or someone else thought.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You wouldn't expect Paul to be obscure about the Holy Spirit.

Correct, sort of.
2000 years of errors, traditions, manmade (opposed to God and contrary to His Word) doctrines and evil interpretations have the ability to "obscure" what once was pure true and holy, set apart by YHWH and righteous.

 

[VARZR]

My interpretation is that the believers will be raptured after the antichrist is revealed through a military invasion of Israel and setting up the abomination of desolation but before the mark of the beast is instituted.

I think the amount of time between abomination of desolation and rapture is very short.

 

[jgr]

I may be wrong here but it seems to me that what you are proposing sounds familiar. A 7th Day Adventist by the name of Leroy E. Frome I believe postulated much the same thing you are saying many years ago in a book named......."The Prophetic Faith of our Fathers".. which is a "Historic" outlook on prophecy.

To me I can not accept your thesis. Why would Paul over the years be so forward and fearless all of a sudden be afraid to say what God laid upon his heart to say.

I believe he said exactly what needed to be said and the "He" is the restrainer which is the Holy Spirit.

You of course are free to believe as you wish but for me the easiest thing for me to accept is what is actually what was said and not what I think or someone else thought.

Don't know about Frome. Chrysostom himself lived from 349-407 AD. His homily on 2 Thess. 2 can be found here, which includes my previous quotation.

Paul was afraid of nothing. But his concern was for the Church, and his desire was to shield it from any unnecessary potentially negative consequences of the messages he was relaying. That is why he expressed those messages as he did, as Chrysostom explains. There was nothing to be gained, and potentially much to lose, by identifying the Roman Caesar and Empire.

History testifies to the complete accuracy of Paul's predictions and admonitions.

 

[Bible2+]

Major1 said in post #308:

As a cloud began to hid Jesus as he ascended, two angels appeared to the disciples and promised that Christ would "come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

That's right:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus Christ will return "in like manner" as He ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of His first coming He was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at His future, Second Coming He will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set His feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

Major1 said in post #308:

John 14:1-4..........
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going THERE to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Amen.

But note there's no pre-tribulation-rapture idea in John 14:2-3, just as there's no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there's only a coming again of Jesus Christ (His Second Coming), and then a receiving of the Church unto Himself. Also, the pre-tribulation-rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim the rapture is referred to only by the apostle Paul, and then admit John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means one of the reasons Jesus left was to prepare a place for the Church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the Church means He's not done with the Church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means the Church will be received to Jesus where He will be first at His Second Coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before He lands on the earth at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The Church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the Millennium, the physically resurrected Church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the Church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the Church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

Major1 said in post #308:

Yes, we will meet Him in the air because He does not return to the earth for another 7 years.

Note nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4 says or requires Jesus Christ won't at that same coming subsequently descend to the earth on a white horse, as in Revelation 19:7-21. And there's no explicit descent to the earth, or a white horse, in Matthew 24:30 either, but it's still the same future, Second Coming of Jesus Christ as Revelation 19:7-21. And even in Revelation 19:7-21 there's no explicit descent to the earth, as in Zechariah 14:3-21, even though Revelation 19:7-21 is the same Second Coming as Zechariah 14:3-21, which has no explicit white horse.

 

[jgr]

Correct, sort of.
2000 years of errors, traditions, manmade (opposed to God and contrary to His Word) doctrines and evil interpretations have the ability to "obscure" what once was pure true and holy, set apart by YHWH and righteous.

From the Greek:

καὶ νῦν τὸ κατέχον οἴδατε
And now that which is restraining you know

The integrity is uncompromised. God has seen to that.