Avoiding idolatry in the veneration of the Saints

“Paisios”

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Shoe, I would just say if you aren't actually an Orthodox Christian or a catechumen, don't do anything with icons or saints that you are uncomfortable doing. Everybody has their own way of showing respect.

I used to kiss icons at church but now days I'm just content to let one sit in my corner next to a salt lamp. Occasionally I have prayed in front of an icon in the past, of course. Right now I have a Nativity set put up instead of an icon, but I will rotate them depending on the season.
Thank you for the reply. You know some of my struggles, and I appreciate your thoughts.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I will second something Firedragon said ... if you are uncomfortable or unconvinced, don't do anything that violates your conscience.

Some things we can set aside and accept that the Church has her reasons and our understanding needs to grow (at least once our acceptance of the Church herself is reached) ... but as for me, I wouldn't want to actively DO (or encourage anyone else to do) anything that violates their conscience.

For example, I had several priests quickly assure me that no one has to ask the Saints for intercession. It is a thing we may do that can help us, but not required. However, if we believed the Church was wrong and we knew better, then it would be something to look at carefully before considering being received.
 
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“Paisios”

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I will second something Firedragon said ... if you are uncomfortable or unconvinced, don't do anything that violates your conscience.

Some things we can set aside and accept that the Church has her reasons and our understanding needs to grow (at least once our acceptance of the Church herself is reached) ... but as for me, I wouldn't want to actively DO (or encourage anyone else to do) anything that violates their conscience.

For example, I had several priests quickly assure me that no one has to ask the Saints for intercession. It is a thing we may do that can help us, but not required. However, if we believed the Church was wrong and we knew better, then it would be something to look at carefully before considering being received.
Thank you again for the reply. Veneration of the Saints isn’t (any more) something that worries me. I seem to have come a long way fairly quickly. But separating worship and veneration when outwardly they appear similar, has been troubling to me.

But a key for me personally (and this is not something I found in Church doctrine, just my own understanding) ... but worship seems to be something connected deeply inside. It is in the heart, or spirit, or ... (?) ... one or both of those I think. Nous?

At any rate, it's something I know when I'm offering it. I have defended others before - especially Catholics - when they are accused of worshipping because of the acts they do. If those acts are simply the same things by which we show honor - i.e. veneration - to the Saints then ... my usual reply is that we can't know what us inside a person, so we can't judge if they worship or not, based on those appearances.
That is perhaps, why I found this reply practically so helpful (though it was useful to have the theological insight of Father ArmyMatt as well). Your answer was very useful.

But yes, as a non-Orthodox and not even a catechumen, I feel under no outside obligation to venerate the Saints or use icons...but inwardly, that is something else.
 
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“Paisios”

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they are for us Orthodox. the only offering is the Eucharist, and it is clear in the services Who is the only One we worship and adore.
Father, would the Orthodox position then be that those Protestant denominations that believe that communion is simply a memorial and not the real presence of Christ or a sacrificial offering then are not just wrongly worshiping, but in fact, are not worshiping at all (in the Orthodox definition/concept of “worship”)?

(I do not mean to create debates or cause offense to any Protestants here...I am simply trying to determine if the Orthodox and Protestants use the same word - worship - with entirely different meanings. I don’t know how to phrase my question differently, so if I offend anyone unintentionally, please forgive...)
 
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ArmyMatt

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Father, would the Orthodox position then be that those Protestant denominations that believe that communion is simply a memorial and not the real presence of Christ or a sacrificial offering then are not just wrongly worshiping, but in fact, are not worshiping at all (in the Orthodox definition/concept of “worship”)?

(I do not mean to create debates or cause offense to any Protestants here...I am simply trying to determine if the Orthodox and Protestants use the same word - worship - with entirely different meanings. I don’t know how to phrase my question differently, so if I offend anyone unintentionally, please forgive...)

in a sense yes, because they removed the sacrifice given by Christ
 
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“Paisios”

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in a sense yes, because they removed the sacrifice given by Christ
Ah, that perfectly answers my question. Thank you. That clarifies quite a bit for me.

(I’m not sure why I started thinking about this thread, and specifically your previous response while in the car this morning 6 months after I started it, but I guess things churn around in my head slowly, and it takes me awhile to “get it”.)
 
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abacabb3

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Tell me if I'm wrong, but we can pretty much honor the saints (and other living human beings for that matter other than):

-We don't call them God
-We don't offer them sacrifices

The former is pretty simple, the latter can be sort of dubious (i.e. we can give offerings and presents to people without these being confused as sacrifices.)

God gets more than an offering. He gets a true sacrifice, the Eucharist. However, depending upon cultural context, harmless offerings in our context may be sacrifices in others. The ancient Romans considered incense burned to an icon of the Emperor a sacrifice. Likewise, Asian cultures burn incense to appease dead ancestors and they consider this worship. Yet, we can sense an icon of the Theotokos and not consider that we are sacrificing anything to her.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Tell me if I'm wrong, but we can pretty much honor the saints (and other living human beings for that matter other than):

-We don't call them God
-We don't offer them sacrifices

The former is pretty simple, the latter can be sort of dubious (i.e. we can give offerings and presents to people without these being confused as sacrifices.)

God gets more than an offering. He gets a true sacrifice, the Eucharist. However, depending upon cultural context, harmless offerings in our context may be sacrifices in others. The ancient Romans considered incense burned to an icon of the Emperor a sacrifice. Likewise, Asian cultures burn incense to appease dead ancestors and they consider this worship. Yet, we can sense an icon of the Theotokos and not consider that we are sacrificing anything to her.

it's because when the priest blesses the incense, he says it's offered to Christ.
 
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~Anastasia~

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it's because when the priest blesses the incense, he says it's offered to Christ.
A bishop once told me that I could recycle the beeswax from the candles that had to be extinguished in the Narthex, but only for certain things. He said in a sense they have already been offered to God so only certain purposes are suitable.
 
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abacabb3

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it's because when the priest blesses the incense, he says it's offered to Christ.
That's interesting to know. I am addressing a larger concept, however. As you note, the intent of offering the incense is clearly different in Orthodoxy then it would be in the pagan religions as I was citing, the intent being made clear in Orthodoxy by the blessing you cite. But there are other situations where I think we need to expand our concept of intent. We put food in front of icons on saints days and such (this is something Saint Epiphanius even misunderstood or otherwise was not comfortable with, as he writes about it.) It is not unheard of for people to pray towards an icon (or Roman Catholics, a statue) of the Theotokos, hands raised in a posture more "worshippy" than Protestants are often used to.

You never hear of an Orthodox sacrificing anything to anyone other than God (though Eucharist being our chief sacrifice, but the saints speak of our good works also has sacrifices of a sort.) So, I think the easiest differntiator that seperates veneration and worship as the OP is looking for is sacrifice.

After all, the 7th council essentially planted its flag on this concept. :)

I presume we are on the same page, I am just elaborating for those following the thread.
 
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ArmyMatt

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That's interesting to know. I am addressing a larger concept, however. As you note, the intent of offering the incense is clearly different in Orthodoxy then it would be in the pagan religions as I was citing, the intent being made clear in Orthodoxy by the blessing you cite. But there are other situations where I think we need to expand our concept of intent. We put food in front of icons on saints days and such (this is something Saint Epiphanius even misunderstood or otherwise was not comfortable with, as he writes about it.) It is not unheard of for people to pray towards an icon (or Roman Catholics, a statue) of the Theotokos, hands raised in a posture more "worshippy" than Protestants are often used to.

You never hear of an Orthodox sacrificing anything to anyone other than God (though Eucharist being our chief sacrifice, but the saints speak of our good works also has sacrifices of a sort.) So, I think the easiest differntiator that seperates veneration and worship as the OP is looking for is sacrifice.

After all, the 7th council essentially planted its flag on this concept. :)

I presume we are on the same page, I am just elaborating for those following the thread.

nah, you are good. while I agree we may look to a Protestant like we are offering stuff to an icon, the prayers make it clear we are not.

good points though
 
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ArmyMatt

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A bishop once told me that I could recycle the beeswax from the candles that had to be extinguished in the Narthex, but only for certain things. He said in a sense they have already been offered to God so only certain purposes are suitable.

makes sense
 
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Ioannes

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As a new convert I don't find any difficulty in telling saints and God apart. But since some face this challenge, I feel thankful to the Highest one for sparing me this trouble.
Personally it's all in the heart.

When I read the Gospel the first time I was all excited to finish it and enjoy the Theologically rich epistles I had read excerpts of. When I actually finished John and then Acts, I was already nostalgic of feeling in the physical presence of Christ (while reading) and wanted to go back. Wanted to imagine myself in His presence and hear His sermons.

This didn't happen at all with the Epistles, which I love as Scripture but didn't fill my heart nearly as much as the Gospels.

When I enter Church I admire and respect the icons of saints, but I don't feel a powerful and submissive love for them like that of a son for his father. I easily perceive the saints as role models, as brothers, sinners who became righteous and humble.

Christ is God, he is divine, and so forth. I think reading the Gospel with an open heart clearly cuts the distinction between God and his honoured Saints.
 
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Not David

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Revival thread!

Not to be annoying but I find some Orthodox people believe some Catholic devotions are exaggerated and seemed as "getting too far". It might feel that way because of a Protestant past of some of us, but it has been said of Mary to be "Mistress of creation, Commanding chief of heavenly hosts, Surpassing principalities dominions, thrones and powers, holy tree of life and fount of immortality, us as her servants".
 
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ArmyMatt

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Revival thread!

Not to be annoying but I find some Orthodox people believe some Catholic devotions are exaggerated and seemed as "getting too far". It might feel that way because of a Protestant past of some of us, but it has been said of Mary to be "Mistress of creation, Commanding chief of heavenly hosts, Surpassing principalities dominions, thrones and powers, holy tree of life and fount of immortality, us as her servants".

yes, but those titles will be for the rest of us as well after the Resurrection. while there could be some baggage, I don't think our wariness against Roman extreme devotion to her is without merit. something like calling her Mediatrix of all graces is a good reason to give pause.
 
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yes, but those titles will be for the rest of us as well after the Resurrection. while there could be some baggage, I don't think our wariness against Roman extreme devotion to her is without merit. something like calling her Mediatrix of all graces is a good reason to give pause.
I don't know much about the idea of "Mediatrix of all graces" but I think it is wrong because of a non-Orthodox understanding of what Grace is. The same reason the Immaculate Conception is wrong because of a misunderstanding on Original Sin.
 
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FenderTL5

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in a sense yes, because they removed the sacrifice given by Christ
In our Bible Study last evening, it was mentioned that in some western services the ἐπίκλησις has been eliminated. For Orthodox, the Eucharist is not complete without it. As far as I know, it was never part of the Lord's Supper in the protestant churches that I attended.
 
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A Shield of Turquoise

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The Roman mass never had an epiclesis as one finds in Eastern liturgies. St. Nicholas Cabasilas, in his commentary on the divine liturgy, addresses this by arguing that the prayer Supplices te rogamus contained in the Roman canon constitutes an epiclesis.

Much later, some Orthodox bishops appear to have ignored St. Nicholas' commentary and required Western Rite Orthodox to insert a Byzantine epiclesis into their mass.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I don't know much about the idea of "Mediatrix of all graces" but I think it is wrong because of a non-Orthodox understanding of what Grace is. The same reason the Immaculate Conception is wrong because of a misunderstanding on Original Sin.

well yeah, but even with their understanding of grace, it's still problematic.
 
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ArmyMatt

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In our Bible Study last evening, it was mentioned that in some western services the ἐπίκλησις has been eliminated. For Orthodox, the Eucharist is not complete without it. As far as I know, it was never part of the Lord's Supper in the protestant churches that I attended.

same here when I was an evangelical. but it makes sense, when you remove the understanding of what the sacrament is.
 
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