Avoiding idolatry in the veneration of the Saints

[“Paisios”]

Greetings, and in advance I thank you for your patience with and responses to yet another of the unending questions that I have.

(I believe that some of this has been touched on in a few other threads, but I am not sure that those answer completely my question, so please excuse any redundancy and my slowness in understanding.)

My question concerns the difference and “practical application” between veneration of the Saints, and the worship of God. I accept that veneration is for the Saints (including the Theotokos), and that worship is for God alone, and that both are correct and proper.

But in practice (especially for a total beginner like me) I am having a difficult time distinguishing these two ideas as actually practiced. I would like to show due reverence to the Saints, but I am concerned that I may inadvertently fall into idolatry by actually worshipping rather than simply venerating them.

How do I avoid this error? Is it primarily an attitudinal approach? Is it a difference in practice? Please help clarify this for me.

(I am thankful for any responses, but I posted this in The Ancient Way because I am most interested in Eastern Orthodox replies.)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Greetings, and in advance I thank you for your patience with and responses to yet another of the unending questions that I have.

(I believe that some of this has been touched on in a few other threads, but I am not sure that those answer completely my question, so please excuse any redundancy and my slowness in understanding.)

My question concerns the difference and “practical application” between veneration of the Saints, and the worship of God. I accept that veneration is for the Saints (including the Theotokos), and that worship is for God alone, and that both are correct and proper.

But in practice (especially for a total beginner like me) I am having a difficult time distinguishing these two ideas as actually practiced. I would like to show due reverence to the Saints, but I am concerned that I may inadvertently fall into idolatry by actually worshipping rather than simply venerating them.

How do I avoid this error? Is it primarily an attitudinal approach? Is it a difference in practice? Please help clarify this for me.

(I am thankful for any responses, but I posted this in The Ancient Way because I am most interested in Eastern Orthodox replies.)

I'm hoping others can give you a good handle on this, but what helped me a lot coming into the Church was learning that it was a cultural thing for the Greeks that grandchildren would greet their grandparents by kissing their hand. It is a sort of minor veneration, I suppose. A sign of great admiration and respect, as well as love and appreciation.

In a way, in my mind, I can overlay this and think - what if I'm visiting an older family member, much beloved, and their spirituality is that of St. Seraphim of Sarov (for example, or someone like that). There would be increased appreciation for that spirituality. Which of course is thanks to the Holy Spirit living in them.

LOL this made more sense to me when I started. I'm not explaining well.

Of course we do not worship a person for the sake of the Holy Spirit in them, though we can worship Him. But even the appreciation and honor we have for them honors the Holy Spirit, because we acknowledge it is His work.

But just as we do not worship our family members or those we know who might actually be worthy of a degree of veneration, the same is simply true for the Saints. They are men, like us. Just highly deserving of honor, admiration, love, respect, and appreciation.

I hope that didn't just make things more confusing.

 

[“Paisios”]

I'm hoping others can give you a good handle on this, but what helped me a lot coming into the Church was learning that it was a cultural thing for the Greeks that grandchildren would greet their grandparents by kissing their hand. It is a sort of minor veneration, I suppose. A sign of great admiration and respect, as well as love and appreciation.

In a way, in my mind, I can overlay this and think - what if I'm visiting an older family member, much beloved, and their spirituality is that of St. Seraphim of Sarov (for example, or someone like that). There would be increased appreciation for that spirituality. Which of course is thanks to the Holy Spirit living in them.

LOL this made more sense to me when I started. I'm not explaining well.

Of course we do not worship a person for the sake of the Holy Spirit in them, though we can worship Him. But even the appreciation and honor we have for them honors the Holy Spirit, because we acknowledge it is His work.

But just as we do not worship our family members or those we know who might actually be worthy of a degree of veneration, the same is simply true for the Saints. They are men, like us. Just highly deserving of honor, admiration, love, respect, and appreciation.

I hope that didn't just make things more confusing.

Thank you for your reply. You are gracious as always.

I certainly understand giving due respect to the Saints, and I accept the appropriateness of kissing their picture as one would with family members (and as I have often done with some of my deceased family members in memory of them), and that veneration is appropriate.

I guess my question is though, in practical terms, in terms of what we do (not just what we think - i know that worship is just for God, but that respect for the Saints is due) what differentiates our actions of worship from veneration? How can I avoid the error of worshiping, rather than just venerating, the Saints? Some of the actions of veneration seem very similar to worship, so how can I ensure that I am avoiding idolatry, without being disrespectful? I am not sure I am making myself completely clear, but I am not sure how to clarify my thoughts. Forgive me.

(ETA: My question is not whether we should venerate the Saints, but how do we keep worship and veneration as separate things, when on the surface they appear - at least to a non-Orthodox new to the whole concept - very similar)

 

[All4Christ]

@Shoetoyou This isn’t really an answer, but I wanted to say that I completely understand where you are coming from. It’s a balance that is difficult to figure out with some backgrounds.

 

[“Paisios”]

@Shoetoyou This isn’t really an answer, but I wanted to say that I completely understand where you are coming from. It’s a balance that is difficult to figure out with some backgrounds.

Thank you for the reply. It’s comforting that you understand.
I am just trying to clarify and understand it better, and I am finding that balance somewhat difficult to grasp.

 

[All4Christ]

Thank you for the reply. It’s comforting that you understand.
I am just trying to clarify and understand it better, and I am finding that balance somewhat difficult to grasp.

I’ve found that intellectual understanding in this area is much easier than emotional understanding...and perhaps putting it into practice. I’ll think about how I handled it, though to be truthful, I am still working on it to a point

 

[“Paisios”]

I’ve found that intellectual understanding in this area is much easier than emotional understanding...and perhaps putting it into practice. I’ll think about how I handled it, though to be truthful, I am still working on it to a point

Again, thank you.

 

[ArmyMatt]

offering and sacrifice are only made to God. no saint is the object of the Eucharistic sacrifice.

 

[“Paisios”]

offering and sacrifice are only made to God. no saint is the object of the Eucharistic sacrifice.

Thank you, Father.

Is that the only difference (though it is, of course, a significant one)? Is it possible to inadvertently worship the Saints without sacrifice and offering, or are those elements a necessary part of worship?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you, Father.

Is that the only difference (though it is, of course, a significant one)? Is it possible to inadvertently worship the Saints without sacrifice and offering, or are those elements a necessary part of worship?

they are for us Orthodox. the only offering is the Eucharist, and it is clear in the services Who is the only One we worship and adore.

 

[“Paisios”]

they are for us Orthodox. the only offering is the Eucharist, and it is clear in the services Who is the only One we worship and adore.

Thank you, Father.
That is helpful.

 

[“Paisios”]

they are for us Orthodox. the only offering is the Eucharist, and it is clear in the services Who is the only One we worship and adore.

Father, if I might ask a follow up question, though somewhat tangential to my original inquiry...

Can you explain how the Eucharist is an offering or sacrifice to God? I know this is the teaching not only of the Orthodox, but also Rome and Canterbury, but I have never quite understood that. It has always seemed to me that it is a sacrifice of and from God to us, in which we are invited to partake.

Thank you for any clarification you can offer...

 

[ArmyMatt]

Father, if I might ask a follow up question, though somewhat tangential to my original inquiry...

Can you explain how the Eucharist is an offering or sacrifice to God? I know this is the teaching not only of the Orthodox, but also Rome and Canterbury, but I have never quite understood that. It has always seemed to me that it is a sacrifice of and from God to us, in which we are invited to partake.

Thank you for any clarification you can offer...

it becomes the Body and Blood that was offered on the Cross, which we offer by tapping into that one eternal event.

 

[“Paisios”]

it becomes the Body and Blood that was offered on the Cross, which we offer by tapping into that one eternal event.

Thank you. I take up far too much of your time, and am grateful that you continue to respond to my endless questions.

Becoming the Body and Blood I kind of understand, that it was offered on the Cross I kind of understand, but I am still not clear on “offering it by tapping into that eternal event”...are you saying in the Eucharist that His sacrifice is given back to Himself? Would we then both receive and offer, since He sacrificed Himself for us?

Pardon my confusion and lack of understanding. I find this a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you. I take up far too much of your time, and am grateful that you continue to respond to my endless questions.

Becoming the Body and Blood I kind of understand, that it was offered on the Cross I kind of understand, but I am still not clear on “offering it by tapping into that eternal event”...are you saying in the Eucharist that His sacrifice is given back to Himself? Would we then both receive and offer, since He sacrificed Himself for us?

Pardon my confusion and lack of understanding. I find this a difficult concept to grasp.

yes, Christ is both the offerer and the offered, the object of sacrifice, the priest Who sacrifices, and the God Who receives the sacrifice.

 

[“Paisios”]

yes, Christ is both the offerer and the offered, the object of sacrifice, the priest Who sacrifices, and the God Who receives the sacrifice.

Again, I thank you, Father.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Going back to your first question - I doubt this will help much. I will say that I do understand where you're coming from and it was a question I was aware of for some time.

But a key for me personally (and this is not something I found in Church doctrine, just my own understanding) ... but worship seems to be something connected deeply inside. It is in the heart, or spirit, or ... (?) ... one or both of those I think. Nous?

At any rate, it's something I know when I'm offering it. I have defended others before - especially Catholics - when they are accused of worshipping because of the acts they do. If those acts are simply the same things by which we show honor - i.e. veneration - to the Saints then ... my usual reply is that we can't know what us inside a person, so we can't judge if they worship or not, based on those appearances.

I don't know if this helps. But I used to look at the outward practices and try to determine what was different so as not to cross a line, and it seems I have discovered the line is hidden within. We can certainly know it in ourselves. But we can't judge someone else by the simple act of them kissing a religious object, for example.

And I'm still reminded how much of my appreciation/honor is really based on the Holy Spirit for any person.

You know, we are almost incidental. It is God in us that is the cause of anything Good. The Saints were just good at getting themselves out of the way and cooperating with His grace to let it shine through them. Glory to God!

 

[“Paisios”]

Going back to your first question - I doubt this will help much. I will say that I do understand where you're coming from and it was a question I was aware of for some time.

But a key for me personally (and this is not something I found in Church doctrine, just my own understanding) ... but worship seems to be something connected deeply inside. It is in the heart, or spirit, or ... (?) ... one or both of those I think. Nous?

At any rate, it's something I know when I'm offering it. I have defended others before - especially Catholics - when they are accused of worshipping because of the acts they do. If those acts are simply the same things by which we show honor - i.e. veneration - to the Saints then ... my usual reply is that we can't know what us inside a person, so we can't judge if they worship or not, based on those appearances.

I don't know if this helps. But I used to look at the outward practices and try to determine what was different so as not to cross a line, and it seems I have discovered the line is hidden within. We can certainly know it in ourselves. But we can't judge someone else by the simple act of them kissing a religious object, for example.

And I'm still reminded how much of my appreciation/honor is really based on the Holy Spirit for any person.

You know, we are almost incidental. It is God in us that is the cause of anything Good. The Saints were just good at getting themselves out of the way and cooperating with His grace to let it shine through them. Glory to God!

Thank you. That actually helps quite a bit.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you. That actually helps quite a bit.

You're welcome. I'm glad it could help. I thought it sounded less than helpful lol but it was what worked for me.

 

[FireDragon76]

Shoe, I would just say if you aren't actually an Orthodox Christian or a catechumen, don't do anything with icons or saints that you are uncomfortable doing. Everybody has their own way of showing respect.

I used to kiss icons at church but now days I'm just content to let one sit in my corner next to a salt lamp. Occasionally I have prayed in front of an icon in the past, of course. Right now I have a Nativity set put up instead of an icon, but I will rotate them depending on the season.