Avoiding idolatry in the veneration of the Saints

[ArmyMatt]

The Roman mass never had an epiclesis as one finds in Eastern liturgies. St. Nicholas Cabasilas, in his commentary on the divine liturgy, addresses this by arguing that the prayer Supplices te rogamus contained in the Roman canon constitutes an epiclesis.

Much later, some Orthodox bishops appear to have ignored St. Nicholas' commentary and required Western Rite Orthodox to insert a Byzantine epiclesis into their mass.

just because it's included, that doesn't mean the bishops ignored what the saint said. no need to be snarky against our bishops.

 

[A Shield of Turquoise]

just because it's included, that doesn't mean the bishops ignored what the saint said. no need to be snarky against our bishops.

The interpolation implies snarkiness not only against St. Nicholas but against all the Orthodox Western saints who, by implication, celebrated a defective liturgy. It also contradicts St. John Maximovitch's statement that one does not need to be Eastern to be Orthodox.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The interpolation implies snarkiness not only against St. Nicholas but against all the Orthodox Western saints who, by implication, celebrated a defective liturgy. It also contradicts St. John Maximovitch's statement that one does not need to be Eastern to be Orthodox.

not really. the Western Rite and its use is NOT the same as the pre-Schism days, nor is it the same as St Nicholas. which means the bishops might have inserted it for other reasons. living in 20th (and especially 21st) century America is a totally different condition.

 

[A Shield of Turquoise]

The differences in the core Roman rite today with its pre-schism forms are negligible, and the supplices te rogamus that St. Nicholas Cabasilas considers an epiclesis was never removed, so you're wrong about that. There is nothing in 21st century conditions that necessitates adding a superfluous Byzantine epiclesis. Rather, this decision was made on the basis of dubious early 20th century liturgical scholarship.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The differences in the core Roman rite today with its pre-schism forms are negligible, and the supplices te rogamus that St. Nicholas Cabasilas considers an epiclesis was never removed, so you're wrong about that. There is nothing in 21st century conditions that necessitates adding a superfluous Byzantine epiclesis. Rather, this decision was made on the basis of dubious early 20th century liturgical scholarship.

I wasn't talking about the core of the service, I was talking about the people that we engage with today (i.e. Americans). pastoral considerations are different.

so no, not wrong. or I would be if I was talking about what you are talking about.

 

[A Shield of Turquoise]

What pastoral reasons necessitate the insertion of a Byzantine epiclesis into the Roman rite?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am not a bishop so I dunno. but I certainly wouldn't accuse them of ignoring something that they might not necessarily have ignored. you would have to ask them.

but, being a Western Orthodox convert myself, I could see it as being inserted to make the clear distinction that there IS a difference between Orthodoxy (to include the West) and the rest of Christendom.

 

[A Shield of Turquoise]

but, being a Western Orthodox convert myself, I could see it as being inserted to make the clear distinction that there IS a difference between Orthodoxy (to include the West) and the rest of Christendom.

1. If you recognize that the pre-schism Latin church was Orthodox, then this would contradict that; 2. The Novus Ordo mass in fact has at least one option for the canon that has a Byzantine-style epiclesis; likewise several modern Protestant rites.

 

[ArmyMatt]

1. If you recognize that the pre-schism Latin church was Orthodox, then this would contradict that; 2. The Novus Ordo mass in fact has at least one option for the canon that has a Byzantine-style epiclesis; likewise several modern Protestant rites.

1. if you knew about Liturgical history and how things have been added and/or removed, you would know it doesn't contradict that.

2. 'twas just my opinion. I don't know enough about bishop motivation unlike some, so I am fine with that being wrong.

 

[Not David]

well yeah, but even with their understanding of grace, it's still problematic.

How so Father?

 

[ArmyMatt]

How so Father?

if grace is created, and she is the Mediatrix of all graces, where does the Incarnation fit in? how was grace mediated before her death and translation to the heavens?

 

[All4Christ]

In our Bible Study last evening, it was mentioned that in some western services the ἐπίκλησις has been eliminated. For Orthodox, the Eucharist is not complete without it. As far as I know, it was never part of the Lord's Supper in the protestant churches that I attended.

It took a second for me to sound that out. I don’t typically use Greek lettering. For those not familiar with Greek, it is the epiclesis.