Atheists: In your opinion, what is the purpose of life and existence?

[imbadatmakingusernames]

What is the purpose of the world, in your (respected and respectful) opinion? Why do you think this Universe was created? Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Your question presupposes that there is a purpose and that it was created.

 

[awitch]

Not an atheist, but what the heck.

I don't believe The Universe has a purpose and the purpose of our lives is up for each of us to determine on our own. Life is what we make of it and since we only get one go around, we better make the best of it.

 

[essentialsaltes]

What is the purpose of the world, in your (respected and respectful) opinion? Why do you think this Universe was created? Thank you for your thoughts.

The world has no purpose. Life has no externally imposed purpose. One's own life has whatever purpose or meaning that one gives it.

 

[SithDoughnut]

What is the purpose of the world, in your (respected and respectful) opinion?

There isn't one.

Why do you think this Universe was created?

It wasn't.

Short answers, I know, but there isn't much to elaborate on.

 

[imbadatmakingusernames]

Thank you for all your answers.

 

[Eudaimonist]

What is the purpose of the world, in your (respected and respectful) opinion? Why do you think this Universe was created? Thank you for your thoughts.

I don't believe that the universe was created. It doesn't depend on anything for its existence other than itself, and it changes according to its nature.

While I respect Aristotle, I don't agree that change happens because of final causation, except in limited cases, such as human intention. Most change in the universe is not for the sake of ends, and could be more usefully thought of as efficient causation.

So, most of what takes place in the universe is without purpose. The only interesting question is the issue of purpose when it comes to living beings, where one may reasonably speak of ends, since life is a self-sustaining process in which the end is its continuation, and especially where conscious planning for the future exists, which is what we usually mean by purpose. Human beings can have purposes, even if the universe as a whole does not.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[light upon light]

I don't believe that the universe was created. It doesn't depend on anything for its existence other than itself, and it changes according to its nature.

I've found that Ulrich Mohnhoff's Pondicherry Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics shows quite compellingly that the universe is completely dependent on the Purpose of a single Reality for its existence. And that purpose is the creation of the macroscopic world.

It's not light reading, but it is the only view of quantum mechanics I have ever read that makes the least bit of sense out of the seemingly bizarre nature of the quantum world.

Basically, Mohrhoff demonstrates that quantum reality is how God creates the (apparent but not in essence) world of separate things, phenomena, space and time out of nothingness / Himself. He doesn't use the word "God", but that is who/what he is describing.

A lot of his stuff is on the web and googleable. This new book looks to be the best summary and most approachable introduction, I have not read it yet.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Basically, Mohrhoff demonstrates that quantum reality is how God creates the (apparent but not in essence) world of separate things, phenomena, space and time out of nothingness / Himself. He doesn't use the word "God", but that is who/what he is describing.

What word does he use? If he isn't explicitly theistic, he's either being sneaky and trying to hide his theism, or you are turning his work in a theistic direction.

In any case, what you are describing sounds more like theology than physics, and is not something I'm likely to find remotely convincing.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[grasping the after wind]

Is there any atheist here that thinks the universe has a purpose? So far none have said they do. For those that see no purpose, what is the point of humans fashioning their own purpose. i.e. why bother fashioning one's own purpose in a purposeless universe. Isn't that rather like pretending that one's existence has meaning when in fact it does not? Wouldn't that be just as much of a self deception as believing in a deity that does not exist?

 

[light upon light]

No, it's not theology. It explains that, in order to create the appearance of separate objects, space and time out of a single, undivided ultimate reality, you need quantum mechanics exactly as it is, with all the strangeness and counter-intuitiveness it entails.

He uses the description "Ultimate Reality" to describe the single, indivisible, underlying reality that Quantum Mechanics shows us is what the material universe really IS. All in terms of physics, matematics and experiments not mystical mumbo jumbo and vague appeals to consciousness and the like.

 

[light upon light]

Is there any atheist here that thinks the universe has a purpose? So far none have said they do. For those that see no purpose, what is the point of humans fashioning their own purpose. i.e. why bother fashioning one's own purpose in a purposeless universe. Isn't that rather like pretending that one's existence has meaning when in fact it does not? Wouldn't that be just as much of a self deception as believing in a deity that does not exist?

He isn't here, but famous philosopher Thomas Nagle recently wrote a book (denounced by most of his fellow atheists) defending "purpose" in the universe but eschewing God.

I agree with his fellow atheists that the two concepts (God, universal purpose) are synonymous.

 

[light upon light]

What word does he use? If he isn't explicitly theistic, he's either being sneaky and trying to hide his theism, or you are turning his work in a theistic direction.

I think he, like many of us, is simply fed up to the neck with limited and limiting concepts of "God" that were perfectly adequate for bronze age human beings but completely at odds with the findings of science and philosophy. And so he eschews that particular word. "call God, or invoke the Most Gracious: by any name you call him: To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names" - Quran

He also adheres to a more eastern belief system, where the God concept is usually less directly pointed at (in his case, Sri Aurobindo, coming out of the Hindu non-dual traditions).

"His work" is simply an understanding of quantum mechanics that makes perfect sense, unlike every other interpretation of QM that is strange, bizarre, and incomprehensible.

 

[grasping the after wind]

He isn't here, but famous philosopher Thomas Nagle recently wrote a book (denounced by most of his fellow atheists) defending "purpose" in the universe but eschewing God.

I agree with his fellow atheists that the two concepts (God, universal purpose) are synonymous.

Thank you for the information. I am a little confused by your last sentence and perhaps you could clarify what you mean by his fellow atheists. Do you mean only those atheists that deny universal purpose or are there those claiming to be atheists that also claim that there is a universal purpose and that that purpose is synonymous with God? The latter would seem to contradict their claim of atheism.

 

[Eudaimonist]

For those that see no purpose, what is the point of humans fashioning their own purpose. i.e. why bother fashioning one's own purpose in a purposeless universe. Isn't that rather like pretending that one's existence has meaning when in fact it does not? Wouldn't that be just as much of a self deception as believing in a deity that does not exist?

No, there is no self-deception involved because these are two separate issues.

The purposelessness of the universe-as-a-whole has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not human individuals have purposes. Our nature as living beings is a game-changer.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[grasping the after wind]

No, there is no self-deception involved because these are two separate issues.

The purposelessness of the universe-as-a-whole has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not human individuals have purposes. Our nature as living beings is a game-changer.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Could you explain why? I cannot see any reason that it should be a game changer. I hope you do not expect me to simply take your word for this.

 

[essentialsaltes]

For those that see no purpose, what is the point of humans fashioning their own purpose. i.e. why bother fashioning one's own purpose in a purposeless universe.

Because it's part of the condition of being alive and aware. We all have goals, large and small, and a purpose is much the same as a goal. In a thousand years, it won't matter and no one will care that I eat a bacon cheeseburger today. But right now, I really want a bacon cheeseburger. That's a small enough goal that it hardly counts as a purpose, but I could equally truthfully say that I want to "do good and live well". Or I could use one of my other favorite Lovecraft quotes: "The cosmos contains nothing of greater importance for the negligible atoms called human beings than the condition of being elegantly amused." Other people might offer different ideas, "owning all the toys" "live fast, die young, leave a beautiful corpse" and so on. These purposes are not chosen on a whim, but are an expression of who these people are, their personalities. People have personalities, so people place meaning on different things, including their own lives and how it should best be spent or directed.

Isn't that rather like pretending that one's existence has meaning when in fact it does not?

I'm not pretending that I want a bacon cheeseburger. I really do. My other purposes are just as sincere.

Wouldn't that be just as much of a self deception

I'm not deceiving myself into believing I want a bacon cheeseburger. I really do. My other purposes are just as sincere.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Because it's part of the condition of being alive and aware. We all have goals, large and small, and a purpose is much the same as a goal. In a thousand years, it won't matter and no one will care that I eat a bacon cheeseburger today. But right now, I really want a bacon cheeseburger. That's a small enough goal that it hardly counts as a purpose, but I could equally truthfully say that I want to "do good and live well". Or I could use one of my other favorite Lovecraft quotes: "The cosmos contains nothing of greater importance for the negligible atoms called human beings than the condition of being elegantly amused." Other people might offer different ideas, "owning all the toys" "live fast, die young, leave a beautiful corpse" and so on. These purposes are not chosen on a whim, but are an expression of who these people are, their personalities. People have personalities, so people place meaning on different things, including their own lives and how it should best be spent or directed.



I'm not pretending that I want a bacon cheeseburger. I really do. My other purposes are just as sincere.



I'm not deceiving myself into believing I want a bacon cheeseburger. I really do. My other purposes are just as sincere.

I think we are talking about two different things here. I am not asking if you have things you wish to do or stuff you want to have but if you have a reason for your own existence i.e. a central necessity of your existence that makes the fact that you exist in some way objectively important. If you do not ascribe to such a thing then my question would not apply to your position. If you were to say your purpose was to eat a bacon cheeseburger then once you ate it your life would have been meaningful as you would have achieved your purpose in life but if you merely desire to eat a cheeseburger that may be a goal of yours but it certainly is not the purpose of your existence. My question is not whether you have a purpose for your life but whether your life itself has a greater purpose.

 

[Non sequitur]

Is there any atheist here that thinks the universe has a purpose? So far none have said they do. For those that see no purpose, what is the point of humans fashioning their own purpose. i.e. why bother fashioning one's own purpose in a purposeless universe. Isn't that rather like pretending that one's existence has meaning when in fact it does not? Wouldn't that be just as much of a self deception as believing in a deity that does not exist?

A naturally occurring beach doesn't have a purpose. It just is.

Humans fashion their on purpose: BBQ, people watching, volleyball and jogging.

Its purpose is defined by those who interact there, not they other way around.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Could you explain why? I cannot see any reason that it should be a game changer. I hope you do not expect me to simply take your word for this.

I don't expect anything. I'm not sure that I have the time to adequately address this issue. I'll give a brief explanation a shot.

We as living beings have a conditional existence. A rock can be broken but it cannot die. We can die -- our lives can pass out of existence.

Why is that? Life is a self-sustaining activity -- an activity that creates more of itself. Its natural purpose is itself. At some point, this activity is going to stop, for one reason or another. Our conscious purposes make a great deal of difference as to what happens to us. One choice can help one to self-actualize, and another can be self-destructive. This matters in a fundamental way to our very existence (whether we live or die). Our purposes matter to our existence in a way that isn't arbitrary, subjective, or whimsical.

None of this is true of the universe as a whole. The universe can change, but it cannot die in the way that living beings can. So, I see no reason how the universe has any sort of purpose, even one internal to its nature as opposed to one externally imposed on it by a God.

That which makes our purposes matter to us is internal to our natures, not imposed on us in some external fashion. So, the lack of an externally imposed purpose on the universe-as-a-whole simply does not make a difference to our purposeful human lives.


eudaimonia,

Mark