God, Outcasts and Proof of Existence

[Cerraco]

As some of you know, I called myself a lamewad many, many times. And that even though I am 35, I have not had any intimate relations of any kind, was messed with in school, etc. As some of you also know, I visited the Sosuave forum, a high-testosterone mega-macho redpill forum (you will NEVER win an argument with people like those). The kind of guys that have been with like 50-70 women, which is not what I want, as I just wanted a few tips. That place put me in an extreme amount of anxiety, self-loathing and insanity. Not due to the forum in itself, but because of the truths I had found. I had discovered the world was more shallow and tunnel-visioned than I had thought.

In my past years, during my agnostic quasi-Christian phase, I had asked God for help many times. I didn't get it. I was left alone. Now, middle school was the absolute W O R S T time of my life. It was hell within a night terror deep-fried in another hell, as everything I hated and feared was all vacuum packed into one building. That's what American schools are like, it's a strange Social Darwinist world but with puberty involved.

I once told my dad how bad 7th grade was, and that my locker was between two of the most infuriating living entities ever. On the left side, an extremely loud girl with two megaphones taped together for vocal cords, on the right side, some long-haired tool that had one of the worst personalities ever. This was the kind of guy that would mess with a stranger just to impress his friends. I said, "I don't know what I did wrong for God to punish me like that." My dad said, "Maybe that was God testing you?" Then I smacked my forehead in disgust. Really..? Really?!

Okaaaaay..? So that was God testing me? Fine, then what was the plan of the two on either side of me? Did God create them just to test me? After I graduated middle hell *middle school, then what? Those two went on with their lives with no more purpose? Or did God put them near more people to "test" them? This is how a lot of Christians view God: "God did something good? He's so great! Praise him! Wait, he did something terrible? He works in mysterious ways I guess... Praise him!" Huh? That's not being mysterious, that's being a tyrant.

Why does God put people in a world that doesn't want us? Why even be born at all? And how did everyone here come to believe that he exists? I've been binge-watching NDE videos to try and break myself out of my atheism, and though I see some serious motifs going on, that is only proof for those people, not for everyone.

 

[Mark Quayle]

As some of you know, I called myself a lamewad many, many times. And that even though I am 35, I have not had any intimate relations of any kind, was messed with in school, etc. As some of you also know, I visited the Sosuave forum, a high-testosterone mega-macho redpill forum (you will NEVER win an argument with people like those). The kind of guys that have been with like 50-70 women, which is not what I want, as I just wanted a few tips. That place put me in an extreme amount of anxiety, self-loathing and insanity. Not due to the forum in itself, but because of the truths I had found. I had discovered the world was more shallow and tunnel-visioned than I had thought.

In my past years, during my agnostic quasi-Christian phase, I had asked God for help many times. I didn't get it. I was left alone. Now, middle school was the absolute W O R S T time of my life. It was hell within a night terror deep-fried in another hell, as everything I hated and feared was all vacuum packed into one building. That's what American schools are like, it's a strange Social Darwinist world but with puberty involved.

I once told my dad how bad 7th grade was, and that my locker was between two of the most infuriating living entities ever. On the left side, an extremely loud girl with two megaphones taped together for vocal cords, on the right side, some long-haired tool that had one of the worst personalities ever. This was the kind of guy that would mess with a stranger just to impress his friends. I said, "I don't know what I did wrong for God to punish me like that." My dad said, "Maybe that was God testing you?" Then I smacked my forehead in disgust. Really..? Really?!

Okaaaaay..? So that was God testing me? Fine, then what was the plan of the two on either side of me? Did God create them just to test me? After I graduated middle hell *middle school, then what? Those two went on with their lives with no more purpose? Or did God put them near more people to "test" them? This is how a lot of Christians view God: "God did something good? He's so great! Praise him! Wait, he did something terrible? He works in mysterious ways I guess... Praise him!" Huh? That's not being mysterious, that's being a tyrant.

Why does God put people in a world that doesn't want us? Why even be born at all? And how did everyone here come to believe that he exists? I've been binge-watching NDE videos to try and break myself out of my atheism, and though I see some serious motifs going on, that is only proof for those people, not for everyone.

This life is not for this life.

And you are not your own.

This life isn't about you. Start spending time reading the Bible and learn everything you can about God.

 

[Cerraco]

That's a pretty "black or white" way of putting it, and I don't think that's something that would get through to an agnostic or atheist. You also didn't answer what your proof of god was. It does not explain why someone can be alive for just 4 or 5 years and get cancer. It does not explain how some raised differently won't read the Bible, therefore understand "being saved".

I've read the Bible. It left me horrified and confused.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

As some of you know, I called myself a lamewad many, many times. And that even though I am 35, I have not had any intimate relations of any kind, was messed with in school, etc. As some of you also know, I visited the Sosuave forum, a high-testosterone mega-macho redpill forum (you will NEVER win an argument with people like those). The kind of guys that have been with like 50-70 women, which is not what I want, as I just wanted a few tips. That place put me in an extreme amount of anxiety, self-loathing and insanity. Not due to the forum in itself, but because of the truths I had found. I had discovered the world was more shallow and tunnel-visioned than I had thought.

In my past years, during my agnostic quasi-Christian phase, I had asked God for help many times. I didn't get it. I was left alone. Now, middle school was the absolute W O R S T time of my life. It was hell within a night terror deep-fried in another hell, as everything I hated and feared was all vacuum packed into one building. That's what American schools are like, it's a strange Social Darwinist world but with puberty involved.

I once told my dad how bad 7th grade was, and that my locker was between two of the most infuriating living entities ever. On the left side, an extremely loud girl with two megaphones taped together for vocal cords, on the right side, some long-haired tool that had one of the worst personalities ever. This was the kind of guy that would mess with a stranger just to impress his friends. I said, "I don't know what I did wrong for God to punish me like that." My dad said, "Maybe that was God testing you?" Then I smacked my forehead in disgust. Really..? Really?!

Okaaaaay..? So that was God testing me? Fine, then what was the plan of the two on either side of me? Did God create them just to test me? After I graduated middle hell *middle school, then what? Those two went on with their lives with no more purpose? Or did God put them near more people to "test" them? This is how a lot of Christians view God: "God did something good? He's so great! Praise him! Wait, he did something terrible? He works in mysterious ways I guess... Praise him!" Huh? That's not being mysterious, that's being a tyrant.

Why does God put people in a world that doesn't want us? Why even be born at all? And how did everyone here come to believe that he exists? I've been binge-watching NDE videos to try and break myself out of my atheism, and though I see some serious motifs going on, that is only proof for those people, not for everyone.

Oh, I hear you. My life during junior high was anything but cream and pastries. The ladies never looked my way. Granted, I was an occasional pimply, four-eyed nerdish guy. With nothing to offer. Those years really sucked dirt, but as fat has it, they weren't as bad as the years in high school or those I had during my first two or three years in college. I had zicho ladies to date throughout my entire secondary education; athough I did have a few friends with whom I played wargames with.

What I definitely did have, I knew, was a dysfunctional family and a mother who suffered from severe bi-polar, schizoid depression who attempted to do herself "in" more than once because she couldn't cope with her psychogically catastrophic life. It was an unbearable trek of social gloom that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

To my detriment, and probably contributing to my lack of ability to cope myself during my first 17 years of life, Christianity was to me just some amorphous idea on the side pertaining a few Vacation Bible school summer weeks as a young child, one I barely thought about through childhood and my early to mid teenage years other than that I was aware "it" had something to do with heaven. My Christian education through that time amounted to whatever I could vaguely remember from the act of repeating the Apostle's Creed each time my family dared to darken the pews of the local liberal Presbyterian church, which probably happened one to two dozen times over a period of about two years.

Was all of the deprivation I experienced through that ongoing isolated scenario a "test" from God? I doubt it. It was just living in a void.

As for your life, I have no idea if it's a test. I don't think it is. It's just a forlorn and broken world we live in and you and I happen to be in the middle of it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That's a pretty "black or white" way of putting it, and I don't think that's something that would get through to an agnostic or atheist. You also didn't answer what your proof of god was. It does not explain why someone can be alive for just 4 or 5 years and get cancer. It does not explain how some raised differently won't read the Bible, therefore understand "being saved".

I've read the Bible. It left me horrified and confused.

My answer was meant for someone who believed in God. Sorry. Didn't realize what forum it was; though, I think if it were possible for you to see that there has to be a cause, and rather obviously not quite the cause that the Church in general calls God, describing him as something somewhat less than omnipotent, though well-intended, you may get a glimmering of why I said what I did. If God is indeed first cause, then this, (life, the universe and everything), is all about him, and not about us.

As far as logic, I find no other alternative to existence tenable, and the notion of First Cause to be overwhelmingly satisfying to my mind. So far, I've found nothing that does not fit First Cause, and that, First Cause with Intent (a will).

But, probably my first firm realization, that went beyond mere logic, was when as just a kid, I thought I would tell everyone I did not believe in God for the sake of being able to do what I wanted without my conscience, (i.e., at the time, public (and particularly my parents') opinion), getting in the way, and then being surprised to find out that I was unable to deny that he existed. Serious! And not for fear of reprisal.

As far as horror, I mentioned that God is not quite what usually gets described. He is ferocious, he's not tame, and doesn't respect us in the way we think he should. C. S. Lewis did a good job of describing the threatening oily thick darkness (my words) that produces fear instead of ease of mind —I wish I could find the reference. This God is master over the angel of death, who must do his bidding.

I've been through things I can't describe, and that I wouldn't wish on anyone —but that I would not trade for anything, because of the change of worldview that I have found in helplessly 'throwing myself on God's mercy'.

 

[Cerraco]

Oh, I hear you. My life during junior high was anything but cream and pastries. The ladies never looked my way. Granted, I was an occasional pimply, four-eyed nerdish guy. With nothing to offer. Those years really sucked dirt, but as fat has it, they weren't as bad as the years in high school or those I had during my first two or three years in college. I had zicho ladies to date throughout my entire secondary education; athough I did have a few friends with whom I played wargames with.

Granted, getting friends wasn't a complicated issue, but the middle school I went to was one of those... how do I put this... one of those "faux-hood" schools. In other words, you know how people say they're "from da streets?" when they're really not? Yeah, it was like that. My parents moved to a different town, which was a blessing (sort of), but still an issue, because I lived in an area where I had to start over.

What was this high school like? It was the Disney Channel, but without that "karmic balance" that you find in happy-go-lucky movies. It didn't end with all the attractive girls by my side while I was able to fight off any bully ever, with all of them being afraid of me. No, if you didn't have a perfect face in this school, you were invisible. You didn't exist.

What I definitely did have, I knew, was a dysfunctional family and a mother who suffered from severe bi-polar, schizoid depression who attempted to do herself "in" more than once because she couldn't cope with her psychogically catastrophic life. It was an unbearable trek of social gloom that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

My dad was run over by a 22,000lbs vehicle and is still able to walk (although it left him with permanent health issues regardless), and he believes God intervened to not make it worse than it could've been. Let's be honest, if that happened to most of us, we'd think the same. I don't blame the guy. My mom has trigeminal neuralgia, which has worsened to the point where it has borderline crippled her, and it doesn't help that she's super stubborn. The condition has also taken her mind and made her schizophrenic, making her believe that some unknown and unnamed group is "out to get her, just because."

When they're in pain, I have to step in and get groceries and whatnot. By the time it takes for me to get everything in order, I'll be around my 40s. Then I'll be even older, with no experience, with my mind even worse off because I'm inching closer to love opportunities being non-existent for me. Also, while I was in high school, a girl I liked dated my best friend. She was from Canada, and she flew over here. Good GOD that messed me up. Those two will never know what that did to me. They'll never ever ever ever ever know. That mentally crippled me.

Was all of the deprivation I experienced through that ongoing isolated scenario a "test" from God? I doubt it. It was just living in a void.

As for your life, I have no idea if it's a test. I don't think it is. It's just a forlorn and broken world we live in and you and I happen to be in the middle of it.

One of the users here (or at another forum, can't recall) told me a story about how he had terrible acne in his younger years. He would keep his crushes to himself, so no girls would think "oh great, the super acne kid likes ME. Ugh." Then he spun off into how "God didn't want him to ask a bunch of girls out." Okay? So God's just chilling up there randomly picking people to have these embarrassing conditions as some sort of "trial" or "test"?

As far as horror, I mentioned that God is not quite what usually gets described. He is ferocious, he's not tame, and doesn't respect us in the way we think he should. C. S. Lewis did a good job of describing the threatening oily thick darkness (my words) that produces fear instead of ease of mind —I wish I could find the reference. This God is master over the angel of death, who must do his bidding.

See, now this strangely makes sense to me. He's this amazing "all-loving" thing, but he's ferocious. He "heals the broken-hearted", but... he doesn't though. Some people believe that being a good or bad person makes no difference, as long as you believe in Jesus, you're good. That is infuriating to read. So anyone can do anything they want, inflict any unimaginable horror to anyone they feel like, but get a free ride to heaven because hey, they believe?

That would also make things very awkward for those part of Judaism.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Granted, getting friends wasn't a complicated issue, but the middle school I went to was one of those... how do I put this... one of those "faux-hood" schools. In other words, you know how people say they're "from da streets?" when they're really not? Yeah, it was like that. My parents moved to a different town, which was a blessing (sort of), but still an issue, because I lived in an area where I had to start over.

What was this high school like? It was the Disney Channel, but without that "karmic balance" that you find in happy-go-lucky movies. It didn't end with all the attractive girls by my side while I was able to fight off any bully ever, with all of them being afraid of me. No, if you didn't have a perfect face in this school, you were invisible. You didn't exist.

I can partly relate with that. I went to the second best high-school in the city. It was considered to be one of those solidly middle-class to slightly upper tier high schools. It had almost every pre-career and pre-technical option a student could want for the time. But as for my social life? I too very easily blended in to the hallway walls without notice. Not that I wanted to, mind you. I wasn't really wanting to be saddled with being the non-social isolate I was at that time. It was strange too, because even though I started wearing para-chute pants and muscle shirts for fashion, getting a more fashionable hair-cut and muscling up with a weight set at home, still..........................no dice. No dates. No lady by my side at the time, and I continued waiting several more isolated, loner years into my 20s and then ... then, I did something different.

My dad was run over by a 22,000lbs vehicle and is still able to walk (although it left him with permanent health issues regardless), and he believes God intervened to not make it worse than it could've been. Let's be honest, if that happened to most of us, we'd think the same. I don't blame the guy. My mom has trigeminal neuralgia, which has worsened to the point where it has borderline crippled her, and it doesn't help that she's super stubborn. The condition has also taken her mind and made her schizophrenic, making her believe that some unknown and unnamed group is "out to get her, just because."

That's terrible. My heart goes out to on all of that, and I know that has to be tough.

When they're in pain, I have to step in and get groceries and whatnot. By the time it takes for me to get everything in order, I'll be around my 40s. Then I'll be even older, with no experience, with my mind even worse off because I'm inching closer to love opportunities being non-existent for me. Also, while I was in high school, a girl I liked dated my best friend. She was from Canada, and she flew over here. Good GOD that messed me up. Those two will never know what that did to me. They'll never ever ever ever ever know. That mentally crippled me.

Hmmmm. I'm sorry to hear that too. I was emotionally crippled for about two years during a severe bout with depression, during which I developed an obsession for a gal at church. I didn't know it at the time, but it was my extreme mental desperation that caused me to fixat upon her and when I heard her tell me on a date that she felt like she was with her brother, and then I saw her successively with other guys dating, it drove me into even deeper depression. I'm glad those days are far behind me now.

Here's a suggestion, Cerraco: let go of that memory of that woman and realize we live in a world of about 8 billion people. There are other women out there, some of whom I'll bet are as good as, or better, than the gal you were hooked in high school.

One of the users here (or at another forum, can't recall) told me a story about how he had terrible acne in his younger years. He would keep his crushes to himself, so no girls would think "oh great, the super acne kid likes ME. Ugh." Then he spun off into how "God didn't want him to ask a bunch of girls out." Okay? So God's just chilling up there randomly picking people to have these embarrassing conditions as some sort of "trial" or "test"?

I don't think God is randomly picking people for that. It's just hormones and skin problems. They can and do strike any one of us.

Still, if we can get a grip on our crappy diets and assert ourselves with physical fitness, we can often something to moderate and/or mitigate the degree of those conditions. Sometimes a dermatologist can help too.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
As far as horror, I mentioned that God is not quite what usually gets described. He is ferocious, he's not tame, and doesn't respect us in the way we think he should. C. S. Lewis did a good job of describing the threatening oily thick darkness (my words) that produces fear instead of ease of mind —I wish I could find the reference. This God is master over the angel of death, who must do his bidding.

See, now this strangely makes sense to me. He's this amazing "all-loving" thing, but he's ferocious. He "heals the broken-hearted", but... he doesn't though.

But he does, too. And some, he doesn't. Kind of what one would expect from First Cause, I should think. He does not exist for our sakes, but we for his. His agenda is not to heal the broken hearted, but to accomplish whatever he set out to do in creating.

Some people believe that being a good or bad person makes no difference, as long as you believe in Jesus, you're good. That is infuriating to read. So anyone can do anything they want, inflict any unimaginable horror to anyone they feel like, but get a free ride to heaven because hey, they believe?

I hope you don't take them too seriously.

 

[Cerraco]

Mark Quayle said:
I hope you don't take them too seriously.

I don't. Some people believe that Jewish people will burn forever just because they don't accept Christ. That's awful. This God can't be loving and forgiving, then act like an angry child and punish people who think A and not B. It's stuff like this that makes people atheist to begin with.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't. Some people believe that Jewish people will burn forever just because they don't accept Christ. That's awful. This God can't be loving and forgiving, then act like an angry child and punish people who think A and not B. It's stuff like this that makes people atheist to begin with.

I love the Jews; that's not the problem. What saves people "from the flames" is not how accurately one believes. "Even the demons believe that —and tremble!" It is a matter of in whom we have faith. And, amazingly enough, even that faith is a gift of God, and not generated by the believer. It isn't a matter of degrees of faith, but simply, in whom we have faith.

 

[Cerraco]

The Bible has a lot of scary verses. I'm talking to a girl right now through PMs on another forum, and she follows the Bible so hard that it hurts. She believes that those who don't accept Christ go straight to hell. Those of a different orientation? Straight to hell. Intimacy before marriage? Straight to hell. I really hope that God is not like this. I thought it was the character of a person that determines the afterlife, which would make the most sense.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Bible has a lot of scary verses. I'm talking to a girl right now through PMs on another forum, and she follows the Bible so hard that it hurts. She believes that those who don't accept Christ go straight to hell. Those of a different orientation? Straight to hell. Intimacy before marriage? Straight to hell. I really hope that God is not like this. I thought it was the character of a person that determines the afterlife, which would make the most sense.

No. It is the mercy of God that determines the afterlife. But if anyone comes to Christ, he will not reject them. (John 6:37)

What a lot of people are talking about has to do with the fact that certain people, who will not come to Christ, live according to their desires; but those who come to Christ, find themselves wanting to live for Christ.

 

[Cerraco]

No. It is the mercy of God that determines the afterlife. But if anyone comes to Christ, he will not reject them. (John 6:37)

What a lot of people are talking about has to do with the fact that certain people, who will not come to Christ, live according to their desires; but those who come to Christ, find themselves wanting to live for Christ.

Does orientation matter? Does chosen faith matter?

 

[VCR-2000]

One question that I haven't had a satisfying answer is why is there no direct justice for high-level evil in this world? Why do we just have to settle with "one day God will judge everybody good and bad at once"? In the OT consider that God frequently intervened directly to punish wrongdoing and in the present day he no longer does this.

What is the point of this stage show of existence?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Does orientation matter? Does chosen faith matter?

I'm not sure what you mean by "matter". Sexual orientation will not put you in hell, but when you belong to Christ, you will show evidence that you belong to Christ. If your actual orientation, and not chosen orientation is skewed from what God says, it is not the orientation, but what you do with that orientation, that is a problem. Again, you will show evidence of who lives in you. You will desire purity. (Not denying that the "old man" (your old self) is not there still, fighting for a foothold, but there will be evidence.) To say it another way, from what I read in scripture, a homosexual is one who practices homosexuality.

Do you mean, "Does it matter which faith (religion) one chooses?" One can choose Christianity and still not be saved. The faith that saves is not a chosen faith, but a faith that God gives. It is generated by God, and not the human. And no, it need not be something you even recognize as such. Many people are changed by God without at first even realizing that it has happened.

 

[Lukaris]

I believe the account of Adam & Eve’s disobedience brought on physical pain in Genesis 3:1-24.This laid the seeds for death but I believe we still brought on death for ourselves when Cain slew Abel in Genesis 4:1-26. This is what I believe are the background of what St. Paul says about sin & death in Romans 5:12-14 and we are not born guilty but are affected by it.

I believe what was created would have imploded but God sustained with what we probably can know as our science. God still chose to redeem created man by becoming man & undergoing death so we can live ( John 3:16-21).

There is much in this existence which is sorrow & the Lord tells us so ( John 16:33). All we can do is try to live our lives to hopefully make things a little better for ourselves & our neighbors per the commandments ( Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 7:12, repeat Matthew 7:12 with Matthew 7:1-12, etc.).

I don’t believe God zaps us to test us nor much in miracles outside the Gospel accounts. I believe God died to save us so we can live but we have to live & die in the mean time. I don’t believe heaven or hell is guaranteed to anyone but will be where we all end up. While the Christian has an assurance of salvation ( Colossians 2:1-4), the non Christian still has a chance with their conscience ( Romans 2:6-16 etc.). God promises the good will be saved & the evil not be ( see John 5:22-30). I better not boast against my neighbor & presume I have it in the bag & they don’t ( see Matthew 7:20-23).

 

[mikeforjesus]

Lukaris what you are teaching is false and you must repent for you presume to speak for God which has no benefit because God would not make it possible for one to be lost from another preaching wrong but you suppose He does that is why you want to preach.If others were the cause He would give them chance in world to come. The bible says if anyone adds to His words He will take his part from the Holy City and the things written in book of relvelation so I want to say to warn as I don’t want to see you go to hell. I think you should agree a non Christian can not be saved if he does not believe privately for then his trust is in another or himself and does not acknowledge that he has sinned against God and it’s wages is death that God needed to take it so he has life. But privately is not ok as Jesus said whoever acknowledges me before men I will acknowledge even if person can not if he has opportunity to turn that he wished to would be saved for God judges the heart. It is called the lamb book of life because only those who believe in the lamb of God what He did and are repenting to follow according to what they can are in it.

 

[Cerraco]

I'm not sure what you mean by "matter".

What I mean by "matter", is that hopefully these are things that do not stop you from entering heaven.

Sexual orientation will not put you in hell, but when you belong to Christ, you will show evidence that you belong to Christ. If your actual orientation, and not chosen orientation is skewed from what God says, it is not the orientation, but what you do with that orientation, that is a problem. Again, you will show evidence of who lives in you. You will desire purity. (Not denying that the "old man" (your old self) is not there still, fighting for a foothold, but there will be evidence.) To say it another way, from what I read in scripture, a homosexual is one who practices homosexuality.

The reason I bring this up, is that some people straight up believe "if you don't accept Christ, then straight to hell." without thinking any of this through. A woman that I'm talking to - without any hesitation or restraint in her typing - just believes that any other belief sends you to hell. Her brain is so glued to the Bible that she thinks that she "picked the only right choice and that everyone else goes to hell forever". She even straight up says "I don't believe in evolution" as if it's some made up thing. She doesn't understand that regardless of God's existence, some parts of science exist regardless. She also thinks having another orientation is pure lust and nothing else, as again, she doesn't understand the mechanics.

I brought up the Cambrian explosion to her, and she had no idea what that was. She read the word "explosion" and assumed it was an actual explosion. Amazing.

Do you mean, "Does it matter which faith (religion) one chooses?" One can choose Christianity and still not be saved. The faith that saves is not a chosen faith, but a faith that God gives. It is generated by God, and not the human. And no, it need not be something you even recognize as such. Many people are changed by God without at first even realizing that it has happened.

Can I have an example?

 

[mikeforjesus]

Sorry to hear of your struggles but we know there is a God because it is impossible for something to exist from nothing which has intelligence that intelligence had to exist to create it and people who have heard the gospel to understand it have felt the presence of the Lord before and sometimes answered prayer.

 

[Lukaris]

Lukaris what you are teaching is false and you must repent for you presume to speak for God which has no benefit because God would not make it possible for one to be lost from another preaching wrong but you suppose He does that is why you want to preach.If others were the cause He would give them chance in world to come. The bible says if anyone adds to His words He will take his part from the Holy City and the things written in book of relvelation so I want to say to warn as I don’t want to see you go to hell. I think you should agree a non Christian can not be saved if he does not believe privately for then his trust is in another or himself and does not acknowledge that he has sinned against God and it’s wages is death that God needed to take it so he has life. But privately is not ok as Jesus said whoever acknowledges me before men I will acknowledge even if person can not if he has opportunity to turn that he wished to would be saved for God judges the heart. It is called the lamb book of life because only those who believe in the lamb of God what He did and are repenting to follow according to what they can are in it.

I have made no claim to “speak for God” if you believe I have made an error in understanding scripture, that is a different matter. I would still disagree but that is your understanding. I have made no claim as to who in particular God will save but have expressed my understanding in trying to understand the righteous judgment of God without judging my neighbor ( Matthew 7:1-2). I fail to see how understanding how God will save a person & seeing that there is hope for those who may not know, understand etc. I look at scripture like Matthew 12:31-33, Ezekiel 18:4-9, Romans 2:6-16 in that God still may save those He chooses to.

If you want to discuss this further, then speak to me with a PM because this is not the area for it