God, Outcasts and Proof of Existence

[2PhiloVoid]

What I mean by "matter", is that hopefully these are things that do not stop you from entering heaven.

Not all of them do. But some might not prevent it. So maybe don't worry about those so much?

The reason I bring this up, is that some people straight up believe "if you don't accept Christ, then straight to hell." without thinking any of this through. A woman that I'm talking to - without any hesitation or restraint in her typing - just believes that any other belief sends you to hell. Her brain is so glued to the Bible that she thinks that she "picked the only right choice and that everyone else goes to hell forever". She even straight up says "I don't believe in evolution" as if it's some made up thing. She doesn't understand that regardless of God's existence, some parts of science exist regardless. She also thinks having another orientation is pure lust and nothing else, as again, she doesn't understand the mechanics.

I brought up the Cambrian explosion to her, and she had no idea what that was. She read the word "explosion" and assumed it was an actual explosion. Amazing.

And why worry so much about what that one woman thinks about the Bible when there are truck loads of other Christians who can offer alternative but still Orthodox, mainstream answers that don't just instantly condemn every Tom, Rick and Sally who doesn't think in strictly fundamentalist terms?

 

[Mark Quayle]

What I mean by "matter", is that hopefully these are things that do not stop you from entering heaven.

If they are sin, continuing in sin is evidence you do not belong to Christ. Those things cannot stop you from being forgiven, and if your sins are forgiven, you will enter heaven.

The reason I bring this up, is that some people straight up believe "if you don't accept Christ, then straight to hell." without thinking any of this through.

"Accept Christ" is not a phrase the Bible uses. "Receive him" is. And there is a huge difference. The one implies that your salvation depends on the integrity of your choice. The other opens up a whole world of possibility, where it is GOD'S choice that saves. It is not by your will that you are saved, but by the will of God. You DO, however, willingly submit to him, will to obey, will to repent of sin, will to pursue Christ, etc.

A woman that I'm talking to - without any hesitation or restraint in her typing - just believes that any other belief sends you to hell. Her brain is so glued to the Bible that she thinks that she "picked the only right choice and that everyone else goes to hell forever".

There are clear differences in the various religions. No other religion gives you the gospel of Christ. But that doesn't mean that all who claim Christianity, or claim to believe, or claim to be born again, are saved. "The demons also believe —and tremble."

She even straight up says "I don't believe in evolution" as if it's some made up thing. She doesn't understand that regardless of God's existence, some parts of science exist regardless. She also thinks having another orientation is pure lust and nothing else, as again, she doesn't understand the mechanics.

I brought up the Cambrian explosion to her, and she had no idea what that was. She read the word "explosion" and assumed it was an actual explosion. Amazing.

I also do not believe in Evolution as such, but my reasons are not because it necessarily contradicts the Bible (it doesn't), but because of too many generalizations and inconsistencies and assumptions and revisions. I'm skeptical of the science community's motives, shall we say.

Mark Quayle said:
The faith that saves is not a chosen faith, but a faith that God gives. It is generated by God, and not the human. And no, it need not be something you even recognize as such. Many people are changed by God without at first even realizing that it has happened.

Can I have an example?

My dad once told me, "Some people just come to know the Lord."

I have heard several believers say that they just one day realized that they now believed, quite apart from any decision they made.

According to my mom, I made a decision for Christ when I five years old. I don't remember it, but I do remember one day deciding to tell everyone that I did not believe in Christ, (so that I could do whatever I wanted, deal with the consequences (punishments), but not have to deal with people telling me that I was not being Christ-like). But then, I suddenly realized that in fact I was unable to do so. I could not make myself do it, and not for fear of what people would think or do to me.

But two things are important in which I don't want you to misunderstand me.
1. You DO choose Christ, and submit yourself to him.
2. Christ says, "He that comes to me I will not reject."

So whether or not you understand what has to happen in order to believe, or whether you have worked through all the questions or not, or whether you hear this from one person and that from another, and all sorts of denials and contradictions, you can count on the fact that God will accept you, if you come to him.

 

[Cerraco]

So whether or not you understand what has to happen in order to believe, or whether you have worked through all the questions or not, or whether you hear this from one person and that from another, and all sorts of denials and contradictions, you can count on the fact that God will accept you, if you come to him.

Yeah, it's just that I'm hearing and reading a lot of stories about NDEs where people are punished for their orientation, and that is horribly sickening. Also, weren't the Gospels of Christ written like 60 years after his death?

 

[mikeforjesus]

I have made no claim to “speak for God” if you believe I have made an error in understanding scripture, that is a different matter. I would still disagree but that is your understanding. I have made no claim as to who in particular God will save but have expressed my understanding in trying to understand the righteous judgment of God without judging my neighbor ( Matthew 7:1-2). I fail to see how understanding how God will save a person & seeing that there is hope for those who may not know, understand etc. I look at scripture like Matthew 12:31-33, Ezekiel 18:4-9, Romans 2:6-16 in that God still may save those He chooses to.

If you want to discuss this further, then speak to me with a PM because this is not the area for it

Sorry but as your view is being spread which affects others I thought must do publicly but next time I will contact privately for you to seek to change view and if not will have to make post to defend faith as is important to contend for the faith. The false claim of orthodox may be is that I judge my neighbor for preaching Christ only but is wrong for I preach what I think maybe but only Christ knows and Jesus did say He did not judge anyone yet He taught His words will judge and said whoever does not believe is condemned because it means He is not judging them for their sins as worthy of punishment now not or that He wishes their punishment to be bad to others but to love them that they may be saved.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yeah, it's just that I'm hearing and reading a lot of stories about NDEs where people are punished for their orientation, and that is horribly sickening. Also, weren't the Gospels of Christ written like 60 years after his death?

I wouldn't put too much stock in NDE accounts. Just saying.

Christ's death and resurrection was about 30-33 a.d., which makes the Gospels around 20-60 years later, not all written at the same time. Supposedly, the Gospel of John was the last one, written when John was a very old man; but John was an eyewitness of the things he wrote about, and still had all his marbles.

 

[Cerraco]

I wouldn't put too much stock in NDE accounts. Just saying.

Christ's death and resurrection was about 30-33 a.d., which makes the Gospels around 20-60 years later, not all written at the same time. Supposedly, the Gospel of John was the last one, written when John was a very old man; but John was an eyewitness of the things he wrote about, and still had all his marbles.

If I'm not mistaken, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all anonymous right? As in, those names are not their real names?

 

[Mark Quayle]

If I'm not mistaken, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all anonymous right? As in, those names are not their real names?

John, I've heard, dictated his. I've heard lots of speculations about the others. I'm a skeptic myself, but more skeptical about all the supposedly experts' claims about such things.

 

[Lukaris]

Sorry but as your view is being spread which affects others I thought must do publicly but next time I will contact privately for you to seek to change view and if not will have to make post to defend faith as is important to contend for the faith. The false claim of orthodox may be is that I judge my neighbor for preaching Christ only but is wrong for I preach what I think maybe but only Christ knows and Jesus did say He did not judge anyone yet He taught His words will judge and said whoever does not believe is condemned because it means He is not judging them for their sins as worthy of punishment now not or that He wishes their punishment to be bad to others but to love them that they may be saved.

The thing is there are many none of us know how God will judge them. What the Lord states in John 5:22-30 is that those who honor the Son & the Father and believe have passed from death to eternal life. This is the assurance of salvation by grace as in Ephesians 2:8-10. The Lord goes on to say that the dead shall hear His voice and those who have done good will be saved and those who have done evil will not be saved. That is a lot of people that God knows who He will save and we do not.

 

[mikeforjesus]

I believe you are good intentioned but that is not what scripture means it means those who are spiritually dead will hear and live or those who have died in faith or never heard the faith to test if they will respond which God knows those who rejected Him now will not for they willl be raised in same condition and it is just for God to show all things are fair that even when given full chance fair that everyone sees they reject and those who had faith if they were not completely following everything if they never knew to be unworthy to enter kingdom directly to this be separated from God temporarily which is death. Those who received the gospel and repented are those who have done good. But even if you thought that it is only right safe to preach only Christ as way as scripture does say and leave to God as we can not add to His words so set to leave that to God

 

[Laodicean60]

That's a pretty "black or white" way of putting it, and I don't think that's something that would get through to an agnostic or atheist. You also didn't answer what your proof of god was. It does not explain why someone can be alive for just 4 or 5 years and get cancer. It does not explain how some raised differently won't read the Bible, therefore understand "being saved".

I've read the Bible. It left me horrified and confused.

I hear you I was so-called born again 30 years ago and now I've found that the boomer generation has ushered into a time of the book of Revelations. All because we Christians forgot (or mankind didn't know) the great commandment of loving God and our neighbors which I finally learned recently. Christians promote hate when it comes to others' beliefs, serving gays, abortion, and even to each other when it comes to doctrine. The pages of arguments of Christians trying to win the battle of who knows what more. I've been there and done that. If we could emulate Jesus's example of loving mankind the world wouldn't be in the situation it's in now. We wouldn't have the scary parts of the bible. This generation has spiritualized everything and allowed what the Bible calls Satan the rulers of this world to take control through lies, greed, and control.... while we are distracted by our neighbors. Our Christian virtue signaling on issues like gay marriage and abortion causes people to dislike us and Satan takes full advantage of it. Watch the media, the hate born out of our actions. What did Jesus do with the sinner? He loved them! I recommend meditation and reflection about love and how you can love your neighbor unconditionally through thought and actions and God will talk to you. Peace

 

[Hawkins]

God's goal is to build an eternity we call Heaven where humans and angels will live with God happily forever. The three parties must be happy and satisfactory. The completely sin-incompatible God won't be happy to live with sins in such a forever realm.

Law is thus set up to identify who (both angels and humans alike) is qualified to enter Heaven to live with such a sin-incompatible God forever. Law is more or less like a promise saying that, "if you pass the Final Judgment of Law, God will bear with you in eternity no matter what." That's why God's Law is strict in order to stick with such a promise.

The nature of Law works like this. Given a pre-defined period of time, an entity of freewill must not break it. It's an assessment of one's ability to obey. Free will at the end means one is given the ability to oppose God. Law measures one's ability to be obedient without exercising the ability of opposing God, such that God, as well as angels and humans, can live together without an issue. By the hint given in the book of Revelation, 2/3 angels will pass the Final Judgment of Law to enter Heaven.

How about humans? Genesis says that the much more capable and intelligent angelic beings (i.e., the crafty snake) will tempt humans into breaking the Law. Adam and Eve fell due to, or the lack thereof, the two critical factors without which humans won't be able to live with a sin-compatible God in the forever realm. First is the lack of obedience, and second is the lack of faith in God and His words (i.e., the Word of God in a broader sense).

Ever since Adam and Eve sinned under the influence of Satan, Law requires that humans need to be driven out of God's current dwelling realm. Today's earth is outside the realm of God. While any place lying outside of God's dwelling realm will decay to a hell where the most powerful and the most evil will finally rule. This happens to be Satan. That's why Satan is referred to as the god of this world.

Satan turned Earth into a wilderness,
Isaiah 14:17: the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?


In such a wilderness virtually 'ruled' by Satan, humans have no hope to pass the Final Judgment of Law to enter Heaven. Satan and his angels (they are much more capable and intelligent than humans) will make sure that humans are captive and 'would not let his captives go home'. As a result, God either destroys earth as a whole (by Noah's flood), or there must be an alternative provided to get this resolved. Needless to say, the resolution is Jesus Christ. With Jesus' self-sacrifice at some point of humanity, it makes it possible that humans can 'dodge' the Final Judgment of Law. Humans now are provided with a series of covenants as the alternative standard for the Final Judgment (of Covenant instead of Law) to come.

While Law is provide a pre-defined period of time for an entity of free will not to break it. a covenant works on a human through his life span, followed by a Final Judgment of Covenant subjective by a fair and just God (who is Jesus Christ our Lord, as God the Son). Under the New Covenant, your life span is for the assessment of your faith as demanded by the Final Judgment of Covenant carried out by Jesus Christ.

Again it's like promise saying that, "if you pass the Final Judgment of Covenant, the completely sin-incompatible God will bear with you in eternity, no matter what!"