Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[Skavau]

Which means what, exactly?

That it is both immoral and and indefensible. Do you have a point here exactly? You appear to thrive on denying any belief attributed to you whatsoever. I think I speak for many here when part (if not all of your act) is that of a belligerent pseudo-contrarian that makes occasional snipes towards atheists and then denies the implication of them.

 

[Tergle]

That it is both immoral and and indefensible. Do you have a point here exactly? You appear to thrive on denying any belief attributed to you whatsoever. I think I speak for many here when part (if not all of your act) is that of a belligerent pseudo-contrarian that makes occasional snipes towards atheists and then denies the implication of them.

razeontherock is my hero.

For now.

 

[Ampersand]

Figures he would be.

 

[Skavau]

razeontherock is my hero.

For now.

There are certain similarities between you two.

You're both very good at doublethink.

 

[Tergle]

So then your god deliberately allows people to never hear of him?

Not according to the theologian Paul of Tarsus:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

- Romans 2

Many westerners reject God to His face. So the above more than likely doesn't reach out to anti-Christs. I'm just going with what the rest of the New Testament makes clear.

 

[Tergle]

There are certain similarities between you two.

You're both very good at doublethink.

I win my bet that you'ld say that.

But I guess it is nice that you didn't hang the sock puppet around our shoulders.

I'm learning the cliches you guys seem to love.

 

[Skavau]

I win my bet that you'ld say that.

But I guess it is nice that you didn't hang the sock puppet around our shoulders.

I'm learning the cliches you guys seem to love.

Huh?

 

[Tergle]

And, believe it or not, I have respect for atheists who refuse to believe until evidence is presented. I used to be one of you until I found evidence good enough to convince me. I don't try to convince others though.

What evidence?

 

[Ampersand]

A sockpuppet is an alternate account used by sad, pathetic people to create a persona to agree with them on forums.

 

[Skavau]

A sockpuppet is an alternate account used by sad, pathetic people to create a persona to agree with them on forums.

Yeah, I know that. It didn't make any sense in the sentence he used in though.

 

[Ampersand]

It did, in a Tergle kind of way. What he meant to say is that at least you didn't accuse him of a being a sock puppet for that other guy who's name I'm to lazy to go back and remember.

 

[benglobal]

Well, I'm an annihilationist, so the only "torment" I'm aware of is the one Christ mentioned here:

"This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matt 13:49-50.

Good for you. You can choose to believe that Christ said those words and have faith in that belief. I choose to believe that man is weak and ultimately ready to manipulate the word of truth and try to dominate through fear and control not teach through love and understanding. That was what I believe Jesus represented and his truth has been manipulated my mans desire to control and dominate.

 

[Hespera]

Good for you. You can choose to believe that Christ said those words and have faith in that belief. I choose to believe that man is weak and ultimately ready to manipulate the word of truth and try to dominate through fear and control not teach through love and understanding. That was what I believe Jesus represented and his truth has been manipulated my mans desire to control and dominate.

That is sure what the church was doing when the came up with the "Divine Right of Kings".

 

[Tergle]

This is simply untrue. The 'some' that you are referring to are simply unaware of God's 'giving his life' and are unaware even of God existing. The fact that you would make excuses for that groups eternal torture is both troubling and nonsensical.

Agreeing with the text and teachings within the text. No Christian has made this stuff up. As can be easily seen, what a man would make up would be secular relativism, and on the religious side, universalism.

I mean, do you seriously argue that Muslims do not want God? That they are not interested in entering heaven and have 'chosen' hell?

Are you trying to say that they are not being misled by their teachers? That they weren't misled by Muhammad?

He could very easily remedy the entire situation with the 'lake of fire' and extinguish its existence in favour of a universalist approach. The whole notion of allowing people who don't believe in him enter its domain for eternity is entirely unjustifiable.

And you have this eternal perspective given to you how?

This is masochism of the highest degree, and observe as it is being offered to you by a sadist.

A sadist that allowed His puny little vioelnt creatures to smash His son to be torn bits of quivering flesh before nailing Him to a cross killing Him? Even for a moment? What overpowering tyrant of a God would allow his puppets a moment of superiorty? I have actually known people who were in to freakishness. They NEVER enjoyed their own children being hurt. Not even for a moment.

Logic is not with your position. But emotionalism is.

You put the fact that we exist uninterrupted by divine wrath as a reason to be eternally grateful and obedient to everything God is and stands for.

The God displayed in the Bible is not a drooling idiot that believes his clay dolls are perfect. In fact, it appears that God knows full well that we are prone to do pervase things as a matter of our beings. You should read up on Samson. A leader in God's camp that was into prostitues and bullying others. In fact, just about every "hero" of the Bible is a whack job. Yet here we have this God given to giving them an underserving break, after break, after break. Like some kind of loving parent.

And here comes the emotionalism overriding reason and logic:

1) Never mind the perpetual struggle that some people have just to be nourished enough so they can garner up the strength for the next day's hunt for food.

2)Never mind natural disaster victims caught up in the wrong place at the wrong time and pay with their livelihoods.

3)Never mind those afflicted with debilitating conditions for their entire lives and never mind those who contract all manner of disease that may prematurely end their lives with a heavy amount of suffering along the way.

The ALL POWERFUL TOTALITARIAN GOD OF ATHEISM.

And how fascinating that "it" looks so very much like authoritarian socialist-communistic political social structure.

Humansim, marxism,

We should at all times, apparently be thankful.

Why not? Not even the greatest and smarmiest secularist can create life. Good, bad, or indifferent. In fact, a non-God ideology makes no sense at all.

Since when does 'not choosing to love him' necessitate eternal seperation and since when does the eternal seperation require eternal torture?

It is tough to realize that you may in fact not be God. Or, god-like at all. The Israelites chose many times to refuse to love God, and yet, they are his chosen people. Forgiven and restored many times after rejecting God.

Your entire justification for this is based upon a series of non-sequitors that you simply do not question.

Serioulsy, that is what atheists do. They refuse to question their fad leaders. It is way more tasty to say that you are the master of your own life and you will show how good you are.

It is also based on the incorrect analysis that people literally choose to not love God.

If you love God there would be no one dying of starvation on this planet.

People don't believe in God. My actual rejection (speaking for myself) is only of concepts held by humans. I am an 'anti-theist' solely to those who provide rather unpleasant observations and understandings of God.

Read better authors.

A God that would allow those who did not believe in him to undergo perpetual torture (or worse), a God that would direct those who did not believe in him to perpetual torture is a God not worth worshiping. It is the God of dystheism.

You'ld rather a God of chaos or a God of totalitarian absolute power over everyone. There is no other choice your position offers. And like I just wrote above, we see marxism pushed by these kinds of people wherever they set up shop.

A God that only regards our lives to be as nothing more than for his own pleasure, and for his own constant worship is a reality not worth living.

You just described secularism based on humanism perfectly.

It is an existence fraught with futility and stagnation.

That is why so many people embrace the reality of God and reject atheism.

You are not that far away from the kinds of people in ancient Rome that embraced the Jesus of the Christians.

That's a compliment.

 

[b&wpac7]

What evidence?

The survival of the Jewish people against the odds. Reading the history drew me to believe that they were being protected and that I wanted to be one of them.

 

[Tergle]

That is sure what the church was doing when the came up with the "Divine Right of Kings".

Yet God dealt with that with a harsh judgment of condemnation WAY BACK in the old days. Look up the selection process of "King Saul."

One thing you can always count on, is that people will get it wrong often when it comes to representing God.

 

[Tergle]

The survival of the Jewish people against the odds.

Amen. It is pure beauty to see a Jewish person walking this earth. Ever notice how much freedom and beauty there is when Jews are allowed to express their lives unfettered?

Reading the history drew me to believe that they were being protected and that I wanted to be one of them.

Pure beauty expressed there as well. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone has hated these people. That includes Christians. But don't forget, Christians were all Jews at one time.

 

[Doveaman]

Good for you. You can choose to believe that Christ said those words and have faith in that belief. I choose to believe that man is weak and ultimately ready to manipulate the word of truth and try to dominate through fear and control not teach through love and understanding. That was what I believe Jesus represented and his truth has been manipulated my mans desire to control and dominate.

But I did not manipulate anything. I simply quoted what Christ said.

Here it is again:

"This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matt 13:49-50.

Do you disagree with this?

 

[Skavau]

Agreeing with the text and teachings within the text. No Christian has made this stuff up. As can be easily seen, what a man would make up would be secular relativism, and on the religious side, universalism.

This has nothing to do with what I said. I was saying that no atheist deliberately and maliciously (as often presented) rejects God and rejects the offer of eternal life. It is a smear to suggest they do or betrays a complete ignorance of the nature of belief.

Are you trying to say that they are not being misled by their teachers? That they weren't misled by Muhammad?

No I'm not. Not even close. I'm asking whether or not their sincerity is in question. It is argued that all Non-Christians reject God. Do people who argue on that point seriously contend that Muslims reject God?

And you have this eternal perspective given to you how?

It isn't an 'eternal perspective'. It is a perspective. If you're just going to flirt with the idea that we cannot possibly understand why God decrees eternal torture then you might as well come out and say it rather than hinting at it and end it there.

A sadist that allowed His puny little vioelnt creatures to smash His son to torn bits of quivering flesh before nailing Him to a cross? Even for a moment? What overpowering tyrant of a God would allow his puppets a moment of superiorty?

I would comment in jest to that, but it would violate the boards blasphemy rules. You might be able to guess what I would have said. To answer more accurately though: The sadist I referred to is the one who would have all Non-Christians tortured for eternity and declare it as moral (and have us believe it as moral as well). The sacrifice does not come into it.

The God displayed in the Bible is not a drooling idiot that believes his clay dolls are perfect.

No argument there.

In fact, it appears that God knows full well that we are prone to do pervase things as a matter of our beings. You should read up on Samson. A leader in God's camp that was into prostitues and bullying others. In fact, just about every "hero" of the Bible is a whack job. Yet here we have this God given them an underserving break, after break, after break. Like some kind of loving parent.

This has nothing to do with anything, except to demonstrate your low standard of heroism. The argument was to those that would say that we should be forever grateful and forever obedient and in perpetual adulation towards God solely on the basis of being created. Such a suggestion is incredibly masochistic and self-hating.

The ALL POWERFUL TOTALITARIAN GOD OF ATHEISM.

And how fascinating that "it" looks so very much like authoritarian socialist-communistic political social structure.

What are you talking about? This has nothing to with anything that I said. The only thing I can think of that prompted this response is that you were perhaps deliberately attempting to make it as if I was dismissing the plight of those afflicted by constant poverty, natural disasters and diseases which would be close to a malicious smear.

I was actually referring to those who fundamentalists demand be grateful for existence.

Why not? Not even the greatest and smarmiest secularist can create life. Good, bad, or indifferent. In fact, a non-God ideology makes no sense at all.

You mean this then? So should someone afflicted with a debilitating condition at birth that causes them constant suffering be entirely thankful for existing? Should someone who has had all of their children die of disease or famine be thankful for existing?

It is tough to realize that you may in fact not be God. Or, god-like at all. The Israelites chose many times to refuse to love God, and yet, they are his chosen people. Forgiven and restored many times after rejecting God.

This does not answer the question: Since when does 'not choosing to love him' necessitate eternal separation and since when does the eternal separation require eternal torture?

Serioulsy, that is what atheists do. They refuse to question their fad leaders. It is way more tasty to say that you are the master of your own life and you will show how good you are.

There's an unintentional irony here, and I'll let the audience discern it. In any case, there are no leaders of atheism.

If you love God there would be no one dying of starvation on this planet.

Is this supposed to be a joke, or something?

Read better authors.

I am also an anti-theist to your concept of God.

You'ld rather a God of chaos or a God of totalitarian absolute power over everyone. There is no other choice your position offers. And like I just wrote above, we see marxism pushed by these kinds of people wherever they set up shop.

I'd actually rather no God at all, if you were to ask me to choose between that false dichotomy.

You just described secularism based on humanism perfectly.

[citation needed]

 

[b&wpac7]

Amen. It is pure beauty to see a Jewish person walking this earth. Ever notice how much freedom and beauty there is when Jews are allowed to express their lives unfettered?

This would be in line with classical Jewish thinking.

Pure beauty expressed there as well. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone has hated these people. That includes Christians. But don't forget, Christians were all Jews at one time.

Well, nobody was going to come out and claim to have found the messiah that were not Jewish. We had the trademark on that concept.