Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[ToddNotTodd]

I'd be very curious to see your personal definition of free will that makes this statement true; just realize it has nothing to do with the way the same term is used within Christianity.

I don't have a personal definition of freewill. Freewill is the ability of rational agents to make choices free from constraints.

What's your definition?

 

[razeontherock]

So there is no way for God to achive his goal once I am in Hell.

I disagree, and suggest that doveaman hasn't considered why I say that yes, hell is a reconciliation of sorts.

Should be a no-brainer then, whether it is better to keep people around or let them go to eternal damnation.

This is a most basic premise of the Gospel, and I'd be really surprised if you weren't aware of that.

In case of our meteor: while you and your house are still around, I can work on you to accept me. If it all went boom... well, game over.

This is equally a most basic premise of the Gospel. In fact, Judgment Day is among the most ancient of Prophecies. G-d has been telling us about it since basically forever, so it appears He wants us to know about it for a reason.

 

[razeontherock]

Oh, I love it when people claim to be prophets.

You missed that part of the Gospel? Prophet, Priest and King.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Those that would prefer to not learn to love God in the here and now, not to learn to learn to love what He loves and hate what He hates, not to exert themselves conforming to His will, are allowed to exist in that manner just like you said.

This is the Orthodox definition of hell.

Odd definition of hell. I'm having a hard time seeing the "hell" part of it...

 

[razeontherock]

Whoa... Time out! I seem to have lost the track.

May we start anew?

So if I am in Hell, I am lost for God. He cannot achive his goal of having me reconciled with him any more. Correct?

No. Judgment Day is a sure thing. All things will be reconciled. Those that insist upon this as their only means, will be graciously afforded that choice, although I suggest it is a ... poor choice.

 

[razeontherock]

Dove,

I know you've heard this before, but I want to ask again. People claim to be "lead" or "influenced" or "told" by the "Holy Spirit" all the time, yet, no two Christians are ever "told" the same thing. If the Holy Spirit was actually working through people, don't you think it would be consistent?

It IS consistent. The only problem is human limitations; perspective, humility, language, ego ... we each get a piece of the puzzle but who is humble enough to recognize their place and put the pieces together?

 

[razeontherock]

I don't have a personal definition of freewill. Freewill is the ability of rational agents to make choices free from constraints.

What's your definition?

"Free from constraints" is just plain silly. We can each do whatever we're big and bad enough to do ...

 

[razeontherock]

Odd definition of hell. I'm having a hard time seeing the "hell" part of it...

Well, compared to the Christianity most have been exposed to, Orthodoxy is weird, yes. What you're failing to account for is the largeness of G-d. Nothing in His will is in hell. I can't begin to relate the totality of that horror, but just for starters - you need air but there is none. You need water but there is none. Feel free to continue that pattern as needed to realize why separation from G-d is a ... poor choice.

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Keep telling yourself that.



I won't ask you why your analogy doesn't fit, as you can't even see the problem with your assumption, let alone with assumptions in general.

And yet you still avoid my question.

 

[Skavau]

He paid the price. Yet some still don't want Him as God after He gave His life so that they could be saved.

This is simply untrue. The 'some' that you are referring to are simply unaware of God's 'giving his life' and are unaware even of God existing. The fact that you would make excuses for that groups eternal torture is both troubling and nonsensical.

I mean, do you seriously argue that Muslims do not want God? That they are not interested in entering heaven and have 'chosen' hell?

For the last 2000 yers, His forbearance has held out and is stil allowing people the chance to accept what He did on the Cross and not have to spend an eternity in the lake of fire.

He could very easily remedy the entire situation with the 'lake of fire' and extinguish its existence in favour of a universalist approach. The whole notion of allowing people who don't believe in him enter its domain for eternity is entirely unjustifiable.

He's preparing a place for us right now. There's a list of things that He has done for you that would stretch around the earth several times. People just don't tend to acknowledge that it's Him doing it

You didn't wake up alive and on this earth as opposed to in eternity this morning because you chose to. HE woke you up.

You're not clothed in your right mind because you choose to be, but because HE allows you to be.

This is masochism of the highest degree, and observe as it is being offered to you by a sadist. You put the fact that we exist uninterrupted by divine wrath as a reason to be eternally grateful and obedient to everything God is and stands for. Never mind the perpetual struggle that some people have just be nourished enough so they can garner up the strength for the next day's hunt for food. Never mind natural disaster victims caught up in the wrong place at the wrong time and pay with their livelihoods. Never mind those afflicted with debilitating conditions for their entire lives and never mind those who contract all manner of disease that may prematurely end their lives with a heavy amount of suffering along the way.

We should at all times, apparently be thankful.

But you don't get to decide what God does. He has deemed that things are a certain way and they are that way. Out of love, he wants us to CHOOSE to love Him. But if we choose to not love Him, then we must be separated from Him.

Since when does 'not choosing to love him' necessitate eternal seperation and since when does the eternal seperation require eternal torture? Your entire justification for this is based upon a series of non-sequitors that you simply do not question.

It is also based on the incorrect analysis that people literally choose to not love God. People don't believe in God. My actual rejection (speaking for myself) is only of concepts held by humans. I am an 'anti-theist' solely to those who provide rather unpleasant observations and understandings of God. A God that would allow those who did not believe in him to undergo perpetual torture (or worse), a God that would direct those who did not believe in him to perpetual torture is a God not worth worshiping. It is the God of dystheism.

A God that only regards our lives to be as nothing more than for his own pleasure, and for his own constant worship is a reality not worth living. It is an existent fraught with futility and stagnation.

 

[razeontherock]

This is simply untrue. The 'some' that you are referring to are simply unaware of God's 'giving his life' and are unaware even of God existing. The fact that you would make excuses for that groups eternal torture is both troubling and nonsensical.

This is not only untrue, but silly. Those being referred to are those that are aware, and choose to reject.

 

[Skavau]

This is not only untrue, but silly. Those being referred to are those that are aware, and choose to reject.

So every single Non-Christian then is both aware and is consciously and deliberately rejecting God's gift?

 

[CaliforniaSun]

So every single Non-Christian then is both aware and is consciously and deliberately rejecting God's gift?

Just as everyone is both aware and is consciously and deliberately rejecting Santa Claus' gift.

 

[BibleDave]

I really dislike the concept of Hell. I am really glad I don't have it in my belief system.

If you don't believe in your religion and believe in God then you won't have the possibility of pain and torture after death. Yet if you trust in your religion, or any other, then you do have the possibility of going to hell and being tortured for eternity. And wouldn't you be a better person anyway if you at least followed christian principles?

Going to hell is completely avoidable. It's up to you.

 

[Skavau]

If you don't believe in your religion and believe in God then you won't have the possibility of pain and torture after death.

You cannot even pretend to know this. If Islam is true and Allah the real and accurate conception of God then all your faith would, like my non-faith meant absolutely nothing all along.

In addition, the faith of a Muslim means nothing to the likes of Zaac. Does it mean anything to you?

Yet if you trust in your religion, or any other, then you do have the possibility of going to hell and being tortured for eternity. And wouldn't you be a better person anyway if you at least followed christian principles?

What unique moral principles are exclusive to Christianity? Think please before you answer this.

Going to hell is completely avoidable. It's up to you.

I think you need to read at least some elementary critiques of the monstrosity that is hellfire. There is choosing against going to heaven in favour of hell. People simply don't believe that either exists and do not hold that the doctrine that props them up as absolute is true. The argument is accurately that God sending or allowing people to go to hell purely for not believing in him is immoral and indefensible.

 

[CaliforniaSun]

If you don't believe in your religion and believe in God then you won't have the possibility of pain and torture after death. Yet if you trust in your religion, or any other, then you do have the possibility of going to hell and being tortured for eternity. And wouldn't you be a better person anyway if you at least followed christian principles?

Going to hell is completely avoidable. It's up to you.

I find that I'm a better person not following any sort of religious principles, christian or otherwise.

 

[b&wpac7]

If you don't believe in your religion and believe in God then you won't have the possibility of pain and torture after death. Yet if you trust in your religion, or any other, then you do have the possibility of going to hell and being tortured for eternity. And wouldn't you be a better person anyway if you at least followed christian principles?

Going to hell is completely avoidable. It's up to you.

Wow, wonderful. I'm Jewish. I think I'd be a better person if I stuck to Jewish principles, of which we have over 3000 years of practice refining. Pretty much all of yours came from us anyway.

I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; the Holy One of Israel is who I follow.

 

[b&wpac7]

I find that I'm a better person not following any sort of religious principles, christian or otherwise.

Well, for me it isn't just religious ideas. Jewish morality extends beyond religious aspects since it also pulls from cultural idea. I have several books on Jewish ethics that I enjoy and attempt to put those ideas into play. I'd wager a bet that you would agree with the vast majority of them. (Most of them have to do with not being a insensitive jerk to everybody)

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Wow, wonderful. I'm Jewish. I think I'd be a better person if I stuck to Jewish principles, of which we have over 3000 years of practice refining. Pretty much all of yours came from us anyway.

I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; the Holy One of Israel is who I follow.

Yep, they seem to forget that they were once the new kids on the block.

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Well, for me it isn't just religious ideas. Jewish morality extends beyond religious aspects since it also pulls from cultural idea. I have several books on Jewish ethics that I enjoy and attempt to put those ideas into play. I'd wager a bet that you would agree with the vast majority of them. (Most of them have to do with not being a insensitive jerk to everybody)

Indeed I probably would. I have watched every debate I have found of Rabi Wolpe, and I have much respect for Jewish ethics and tradition.