Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[Rajni]

Well I'm not sure any of us would do anything but frown at your term "tinkerbell-esque," but what you're referring to is expressed in the OT as a lace of blue. How hard is it to break a piece of lace?

Perhaps you missed the context of that ... See my previous post, #216, where I first brought up the example of Tinker Bell. It was meant to present a contrast between how reality and fantasy operate.

Also, what's this blue lace to which you are referring, and how does it relate to the power of God?

Nope, I can't let you slide with such a mindless cliche. The fact is it is a personal thing, language fails to express it, and ultimately it is not the Church (institution) that is responsible but the individual. You will find people that "get it" from all the various denominations. And possibly some outside of all that too. None of this points to what I see you demonstrate, which is to shrug and walk away from the Truth simply because everybody doesn't walk in lock-step.

Nothing mindless about it. It is a fact, annoying as it may seem to those who feel they hold a corner on what The Truth is.

If it's a personal thing, and language fails to express it, and it's up to the individual, what is the Christian's purpose for even being involved in forums like this one?

I "got it" a long time ago. Since the I believe the Truth is omnipresent, walking away from it is therefore impossible to do. The true light that gives light to everyone already came into the world, so we're set. Therefore, what I shrug and walk away from isn't the Truth (impossible to do), but rather your particular opinion on the truth, which, in the context of this thread, amounts to God tossing atheists (or anyone else, for that matter) into hell (after creating them knowing in advance that this is where they would end up). That idea of "the truth", imo, is bunk, and worth nothing more than a shrug, not out of disrespect for the Divine, but in response to the seemingly disrespectful (to God) conclusion that this is how He treats those made in His own image.

 

[Alawishis]

Why are you so sure?

I am so sure because there are areas of the world that where the gospel never reached. There were generations that lived before Jesus came and countless that lived their lives before to word spread to them. I know that our God loves us and I know he will not forsake any, who in their heart desire to turn away from sin. I know he reached these people in his wonderful ways but likely in a manner unconventional to us. God holds us accountable for what we know, for what we are ignorant of he does not judge us.

For we have a great blessing as a generation the truth is there for us, all we need to is hunger for it and dig and we will find it. This is a blessing but also a burden as more is expected from us with all we have available.

 

[razeontherock]

So what is the Gospel... according to razeontherock?

While it's simple, I have no way if knowing what might be necessary for it's simplicity to make it's way through the preconceptions you've accumulated, before it can impact you as designed. The cure for this dilemma is to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 1:3)

Perhaps bits and pieces may come up here and there that you may find helpful, but going into the logic of your last couple posts to see how it contrasts to the Gospel would be the place to start. There are a lot of other means to do that other than in this thread, and I'd think any of them would be preferable; I expect most posters here might not want to wade through all that.

 

[razeontherock]

Raze, you appear to have forgotten that people on this thread have proposed several different criterias for entrance for those who end up in heaven and hell.

Yeah, so? We are all plainly told that all Judgment is given to the Son. HE is the criterion! And anytime anybody started asking Him about the fate of another, He sternly told them they were wrong to do so, and to concentrate on their OWN business; namely, following Him. It is to be expected that believers would need this reminder moreso than unbelievers.

 

[razeontherock]

Perhaps you missed the context of that

Nope. My response was .. directly responsive.

Also, what's this blue lace to which you are referring, and how does it relate to the power of God?

While it's simple enough to find the passage via a search on blueletter, these are deep Truths being expressed here that I know of no one who could fathom it on an initial read through. Your supposed contrast of fantasy vs reality is a misrepresentation of the Spiritual Truths involved here, and it is the lace of blue that holds this all together, as you can read from the text in Exodus chapters 28 and 39.

Another way of addressing your concept is to compare the Power of the Cross to someone finding a cure for cancer. Does the discovery of the cure automatically apply it to everyone in need? Or do those suffering need to somehow avail themselves of the cure? Same principle

If it's a personal thing, and language fails to express it, and it's up to the individual, what is the Christian's purpose for even being involved in forums like this one?

You do realize of course that the range of possible answers is as varied as the posters? I would say one point of common ground is Faithfulness. and just because language fails to express it, does not prevent our Creator from making Himself known. As He has done for countless millennia.

Therefore, what I shrug and walk away from isn't the Truth (impossible to do), but rather your particular opinion on the truth, which, in the context of this thread, amounts to God tossing atheists (or anyone else, for that matter) into hell (after creating them knowing in advance that this is where they would end up). That idea of "the truth", imo, is bunk, and worth nothing more than a shrug, not out of disrespect for the Divine, but in response to the seemingly disrespectful (to God) conclusion that this is how He treats those made in His own image.

Please speak for yourself - NOT me. Thanks. If you say something I agree with, I'll let you know. I will make a useful contrast to something you said here though: while it is impossible to walk away from His Presence, it is most certainly within our power to turn our back on the Truth. This appears to be the singular issue of Judgment, IMHO.

 

[The Beautiful Heresy]

As I sit here reading these post, I realize the place God has brought me through and to. I had to come through some religiousness and some carnality to finally see that Calvary really did take away the sins of the world. Thank God it really did not take much to convince me of this truth.

There is true freedom in this, and it brings you to a place of true peace and rest in Christ. It frees you to truly love God with all your heart, mind and soul and TRULY love your neighbor in a way I don't believe you can when you think God is going to forsake those who are different from 'you'.

I mean because in the minds of many, "they don't deserve" heaven as you do anyway. I mean, you are not like 'those sinners over there'.

 

[Skavau]

Yeah, so? We are all plainly told that all Judgment is given to the Son. HE is the criterion! And anytime anybody started asking Him about the fate of another, He sternly told them they were wrong to do so, and to concentrate on their OWN business; namely, following Him. It is to be expected that believers would need this reminder moreso than unbelievers.

That's nice. I am responding specifically to people who attempt to justify eternal torture for an inability to believe in a God and/or the inability to transcend our own imperfections without the divine pardon in the form of redemption (another suspicious concept that annuls personal responsibility).

I don't really care if you personally remain obtuse on the matter.

 

[razeontherock]

There is true freedom in this, and it brings you to a place of true peace and rest in Christ. It frees you to truly love God with all your heart, mind and soul and TRULY love your neighbor

This is what the Sabbath is about, and has ALWAYS been about! (Hebrews 4:11) "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest"

 

[razeontherock]

an inability to believe in a God and/or the inability to transcend our own imperfections

But in the process you present a false Gospel, that obscures the Truth of the matter that our own limitations are bypassed, by G-d's Grace. And if you don't see that clearly, you should blame your own viewpoint, not someone else! Personal responsibility is foundational to the Gospel taking effect; again, quite different from what you are presenting.

 

[Skavau]

But in the process you present a false Gospel, that obscures the Truth of the matter that our own limitations are bypassed, by G-d's Grace. And if you don't see that clearly, you should blame your own viewpoint, not someone else! Personal responsibility is foundational to the Gospel taking effect; again, quite different from what you are presenting.

It is not my gospel. It is the gospel that other people present and I respond to them individually. A Universalist I have no need to quarrel with, an annihilationist not so much - someone who supports the torture of non-believers, I do and will take issue.

The fact that you conceal what you think regarding the afterlife doesn't have any relevance.

 

[razeontherock]

It is not my gospel.

What you do not realize is that you do present a Gospel, in these very pages. And some do not differentiate it as a false Gospel, and even respond as though it were THE Gospel.

 

[Rajni]

Nope.

My response was .. directly responsive.

Okay, cool.

While it's simple enough to find the passage via a search on blueletter, these are deep Truths being expressed here that I know of no one who could fathom it on an initial read through. Your supposed contrast of fantasy vs reality is a misrepresentation of the Spiritual Truths involved here, and it is the lace of blue that holds this all together, as you can read from the text in Exodus chapters 28 and 39.

Maybe my problem is that I see God's power as stronger than lace....

Another way of addressing your concept is to compare the Power of the Cross to someone finding a cure for cancer. Does the discovery of the cure automatically apply it to everyone in need? Or do those suffering need to somehow avail themselves of the cure? Same principle

The only problem I see with that analogy is that I see the gift of salvation as being more like the gift of life itself, rather than like temporal gifts or opportunities that the recipient can choose to turn down. I don't think we had any more choice to be born again than we did to be born the first time.

You do realize of course that the range of possible answers is as varied as the posters? I would say one point of common ground is Faithfulness. and just because language fails to express it, does not prevent our Creator from making Himself known. As He has done for countless millennia.

I'm with you there... I think this is good to remember when pondering the original question of whether Atheists go to hell. Looking from the outside in, we cannot fathom what God is working inside their hearts, and it may not be according to "orthodox" standards.

Please speak for yourself - NOT me. Thanks.

I was speaking for myself, actually.

I will make a useful contrast to something you said here though: while it is impossible to walk away from His Presence, it is most certainly within our power to turn our back on the Truth. This appears to be the singular issue of Judgment, IMHO.

Jesus is the Truth, so I'm not sure how one could separate that from either Him or His Presence.
As for Judgment, that was supposedly taken care of on Calvary.

 

[razeontherock]

Well I'm pleased to find common ground! There is less to comment on, and only what I disagree with:

Maybe my problem is that I see God's power as stronger than lace....

Ok, I botched what I was saying. What holds us to His Power, can be pictured as a strand of lace, showing us it is breakable. And this is OT only, and an instance where varied opinions across Christianity is a good thing, IMHO. There is profound Truth waiting to be discovered here ...

The only problem I see with that analogy is that I see the gift of salvation as being more like the gift of life itself, rather than like temporal gifts or opportunities that the recipient can choose to turn down.

Interesting choice of words I'm going to comment on: the gift is Eternal Life. As in, not temporal. Since we all die, I can't agree that this gift equates to simply being alive in the normal sense. Again, I think this is so significant that it is the point of the very first story in the Bible.

I don't think we had any more choice to be born again than we did to be born the first time.

Ya know, there are at least 2 drastically different ways of reading this. It is possible that it is written from a heart that would never think of disobeying Him, in which case there would be no real choice involved when the Light shone to you.

As for Judgment, that was supposedly taken care of on Calvary.

For who? Why are we told He is coming as a Judge? This is the most basic meaning of my username; we can fall on this Rock and be broken to pieces, (judging ourselves) or it can fall on us and grind us to powder. that latter option is even less appealing to me ...

 

[Doveaman]

I "got it" a long time ago. Since the I believe the Truth is omnipresent, walking away from it is therefore impossible to do. The true light that gives light to everyone already came into the world, so we're set. Therefore, what I shrug and walk away from isn't the Truth (impossible to do), but rather your particular opinion on the truth, which, in the context of this thread, amounts to God tossing atheists (or anyone else, for that matter) into hell (after creating them knowing in advance that this is where they would end up). That idea of "the truth", imo, is bunk, and worth nothing more than a shrug, not out of disrespect for the Divine, but in response to the seemingly disrespectful (to God) conclusion that this is how He treats those made in His own image.

How do you reconcile what you've just said here with what Jesus said here:

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out —
those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."
“They will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” - John 5:28-29, Matt 25:46.?

 

[Skavau]

What you do not realize is that you do present a Gospel, in these very pages. And some do not differentiate it as a false Gospel, and even respond as though it were THE Gospel.

Then they need to read my posts more carefully. I am responding to apologists for eternal torture, not promoting any gospel. I couldn't care less what the correct gospel is - that's for Christians to decide.

 

[Rajni]

How do you reconcile what you've just said here with what Jesus said here:

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out —
those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."
“They will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” - John 5:28-29, Matt 25:46.?

My answers to a similar question in a couple other threads can be found here and here.

 

[razeontherock]

On the topic of aionios, have you noticed how it can jibe w/ reincarnation in the sense of a Judgment Day at the end of every age? This answers a lot of typical atheist's questions, like will there be sin in heaven, and eternity in hell. Not that I'm saying this is how things are, but I do find it significant whenever different faith systems converge on a point ...

 

[Zaac]

So how is this just that if a christain who would lets say killed someone and asked for forgiveness would go to heaven and an atheist who has been good all there life, has never put themself first go to tell?

Please, answers?

Non-atheists go to hell too if they are "good".

Now let me qualify that statement.
No one goes to heaven based upon his morality or immorality. The Bible says
"All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away." (Isaiah 64:6

The best of our righteousness is STILL like filthy rags before a Holy God.

The only way to get into heaven is through the righteousness of Jesus imputed to you. It is the righteousness of the Son that the Father sees that gets you eternal life.

You could live what man would call a perfectly moral life and still be worthy of hell because of unforgiven sin. If you are human you have sinned. And that unforgiven sin makes you worthy of being separated for all eternity from the presence of a HOLY God.

 

[Skavau]

Non-atheists go to hell too if they are "good".

I am sure that you believe this. I am sure you believe this to be entirely appropriate and moral as well.

The best of our righteousness is STILL like filthy rags before a Holy God.

Then we were born perpetually sick and condemned for it. The entire concept of personal responsibility is effectively null under that statement.

The only way to get into heaven is through the righteousness of Jesus imputed to you. It is the righteousness of the Son that the Father sees that gets you eternal life.

Since you have divorced sin from morality, then it is difficult to see precisely what 'sin' here actually is beyond some ethereal taint of sorts. In any case, the invokation of a saviour to provide pardons for our own inherent wretchedness does not vindicate the concept at all. To propose the belief-based response as a requirement in itself is incoherent and necessarily punishes all Non-Christian theists across the planet incapable of noticing the correct redemption.

You could live what man would call a perfectly moral life and still be worthy of hell because of unforgiven sin.

Sin that was apparently imposed upon us and held upon us perpetually. How can we be held responsible for what we were born with?

If you are human you have sinned. And that unforgiven sin makes you worthy of being separated for all eternity from the presence of a HOLY God.

I'm not sure how that could remotely be justified. You propose eternal torture for finite crimes.

 

[Zaac]

I am sure that you believe this. I am sure you believe this to be entirely appropriate and moral as well.

It doesn't matter if I believe it or not. God doesn't justly judge based upon what I believe. He judges based upon the truth HE has given.

But I do believe that a HOLY God is just in dealing however He chooses to deal with eternal unforgiven sin.

God's standard is perfection. There are no perfect people. The Bible says in Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, .

There are no atheists who have never sinned. And thus there are no atheists good enough of their own merit who deserve to be in heaven.

Then we were born perpetually sick and condemned for it. The entire concept of personal responsibility is effectively null under that statement.

God provided a way for you not to be condemned in your fallen state. The key is to avail ourselves of the remedy He provided.

You're the one CHOOSING to sin. No one else does it for you. Thus YOU are personally responsible.

Since you have divorced sin from morality, then it is difficult to see precisely what 'sin' here actually is beyond some ethereal taint of sorts

.

Godly morality rests in the holiness of God. The world's morality rests in the morality of the world. Again, an atheist may be moral in the world's eyes and never commit anything the "world" considers bad. But he rejects God. That's why everyone who has ever gone to hell and who will ever go to hell goes.

In any case, the invokation of a saviour to provide pardons for our own inherent wretchedness does not vindicate the concept at all.

I'll let God speak for Himself. His word says 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

Romans 9:19-21

To propose the belief-based response as a requirement in itself is incoherent and necessarily punishes all Non-Christian theists across the planet incapable of noticing the correct redemption.

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20

Sin that was apparently imposed upon us and held upon us perpetually. How can we be held responsible for what we were born with?

You weren't born with sin. You were born into sin and started to sin yourself. The sin is YOUR own. Just as the police hold you, and not someone else responsible when you break the law, God will hold YOU responsible for the laws you have broken.

I'm not sure how that could remotely be justified. You propose eternal torture for finite crimes.

Unforgiven sin is eternally unforgiven. And thus the one on whom the unforgiven sin rests must be eternally separated from the Holiness of the One Who offered forgiveness, but was rejected.